Why inelastic scattering is an invalid explanation for cosmological redshift

Michael

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Ya, I've come to expect the from all your posts, along with a completely *dodge* of my request for *published* literature to support your claim that all types of inelastic scattering can be "ruled out". You don't even debate fairly to start with.
A doubly ignorant demand.
It physics textbook that describe inelastic scattering and that is what makes inelastic scattering an invalid source of cosmological redshift as in the OP.
This thread is about the resurrection of the fantasy that cosmological redshift can be caused by inelastic scattering by you. You have to supply evidence, not fact less fantasies, bad arguments and citing ignorant and even deluded people.

7 November 2012 Michael: Read Compton scattering (Compton scattering produces blue and red shift!)
7 November 2012 Michael: Where is the scientific literature linking Chen's redshift with cosmological redshift?
13 November 2012 Michael: Where are your citations of astronomers observing blurring of distant objects?

17 November 2016 Michael: Why have astronomers not any blurring of millions of images of galaxies up to high z relative to nearby galaxies.

16 November 2016 Michael: Cite the scientific literature that states Brillouin scattering can reproduce cosmological redshift.
16 November 2016 Michael: Show that any redshift caused by an expanding universe can be detected in labs here on Earth.

16 November 2016 Michael: List the sponsors of "Holushko's model" and where it was published via those sponsors.
16 November 2016 Michael: List the authors (plural) who have papers stating that they are testing "Holushko's model".
18 November 2018 Michael: List the scientific literature stating the detection of any tired light effect working in the lab.
18 November 2016 Michael: How does a static universe explain a black body CMB with a temperature that increases with distance and its angular power spectrum?
18 November 2016 Michael: Cite the publication of Herman Holushko's cosmology work in a scientific journal.

21 November 2016 Michael: Citing Hubble who died in 1953 before the enormous evidence for an expanding universe was discovered, e.g. the CMB in 1964 :doh:!
21 November 2016 Michael: Cite the textbooks on and scientific reviews of the cosmological "EU/PC theory" explaining what the Lambda-CDM model explains.
21 November 2016 Michael: Do you agree that the physical evidence makes a decades long "comets are rocks blasted off planets..." story a delusion?


21 November 2016 Michael: Violation of the conservation of energy by an expanding universe is at least ignorant and maybe a lie.
 
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The CMB temp was predicted by Eddington based on the scattering of light on the dust of spacetime, long before BB theory ever got "popular".
An ignorant statement about Eddington - what a surprise :p!
Eddington's Temperature of Space
Arthur Stanley Eddington, in the last chapter of his 1926 book The Internal Constitution of the Stars, talks about Diffuse Matter in Space. In the first page of this chapter, Eddington computes an effective temperature of 3.18 K, but this has nothing to do with the 2.725 K blackbody spectrum of the Cosmic Microwave Background (CMB). Here is a quote of what Eddington actually said:...
Eddington never predicted the temperature of the CMB. Eddingtion did not look at scattering from an imaginary "dust of spacetime" or even actual dust.
 
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Um, your own quote shows that he *did* include the option of "tired light",
My own citation is that in 1935 there is one statement that Hubble and Tolman included tired light as an option in one paper. What was his position in 1936? What about 1937? What about 1953?

Why are you obsessing with the opinion of one or 2 people 80 years ago when they were outliers then and there are hundreds of thousands of modern scientists who know the evidence that tired light theories are bunk?

Scientists can have doubts about a measurement (even their own!) but can change their mind when more accurate or other evidence is found. There is a gap of 20 years in which Hubble could change his mind about this one mention of tired light being an option, e.g. because in those 20 many images of galaxies that were not blurred were taken.

Two Methods of Investigating the Nature of the Nebular Redshift by Hubble and Tolman, November 1935 investigates that "blurring" for galaxies in clusters - "Part III.II INVESTIGATION OF THE STRUCTURE OF NEBULAR IMAGES" - and they propose Tolmans surface brightness test.
Tolman surface brightness test: "We show that this is precisely the range expected from the evolutionary models of Bruzual & Charlot. We conclude that the Tolman surface brightness test is consistent with the reality of the expansion."
Surprising few citations of less than one a year (73 abstracts) but gives another Tolman surface brightness test earlier than the comprehensive Sandage and Lubin papers.
A Tolman Surface Brightness Test for Universal Expansion and the Evolution of Elliptical Galaxies in Distant Clusters
The data are fully consistent with universal expansion if we assume simple models of passive evolution for elliptical galaxies but are inconsistent with a nonexpanding geometry (the tired-light cosmology) at the 5 sigma confidence level at z = 0.41.
 
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The photons of spacetime are traversing a *static* and very cold medium that is approximately 3-4 degrees Kelvin, barely greater than zero kelvin.
I will now address this earlier claim with a simple question:
22 November 2016 Michael: Cite the detections of a "3-4 degrees Kelvin" medium between galaxies and us through which the light that is red shifted travels.

In this universe the light from a galaxy goes through
  1. The interstellar medium in the galaxy.
  2. The intergalactic medium between galaxies in a cluster.
  3. The intracluster medium between clusters.
  4. The intergalactic medium between galaxies in our cluster.
  5. The interstellar medium in our galaxy.
None of these are at "3-4 degrees Kelvin".
 
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More evidence against tired light theories - they also redshift the CMB but that can destroy a blackbody spectrum.
The Standard Cosmological Model
The most direct evidence that the redshift is a result of expansion is the thermal spectrum of the CBR [26]. In a tired light model in a static universe the photons suffer a redshift that is proportional to the distance travelled, but in the absence of absorption or emission the photon number density remains constant. In this case a significant redshift makes an initially thermal spectrum distinctly not thermal and inconsistent with the measured CBR spectrum. One could avoid this by assuming the mean free path for absorption and emission of CBR photons is much shorter than the Hubble length, so relaxation to thermal equilibrium is much faster than the rate of distortion of the spectrum by the redshift. But this opaque universe is quite inconsistent with the observation of radio galaxies at redshifts z ∼ 3 at CBR wavelengths. That is, the universe cannot have an optical depth large enough to preserve a thermal CBR spectrum in a tired light model. In the standard world model the expansion has two effects: it redshifts the photons, as λ ∝ a(t), and it dilutes the photon number density, as n ∝ a(t)−3. The result is to cool the CBR while keeping its spectrum thermal. Thus the expanding universe allows a self-consistent picture: the CBR was thermalized in the past, at a time when when the universe was denser, hotter, and optically thick.
 
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Michael

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A doubly ignorant demand.

Do you *ever* make a post without the term "ignorant", "fantasy", "deluded", and loaded with personal attacks? Honestly RC, you take all the "fun" out of having a real and "honest" conversation about a topic by constantly deflecting it at the individual. It's irrational behavior you must repeat because all of your photon redshift beliefs remain pure *statements of faith* on your part, and they are *all* completely devoid of any empirical laboratory support of any kind. You therefore really have nothing "empirical" to offer anyone, so you constantly take the low road in debate. It's completely unethical "hater" behavior which you direct at anyone and everyone that lacks faith in your supernatural creation mythology "dogma".

It physics textbook that describe inelastic scattering and that is what makes inelastic scattering an invalid source of cosmological redshift as in the OP.

Said *no one ever in any published study*, just by the same guy that told us that electrical discharges are "impossible" in plasma, and never produced a *published* document on that claim either!

What *published scientific paper* ruled out *every potential* source of inelastic scattering as having some influence on cosmological observations RC? Be specific, or go home.

This thread is about the resurrection of the fantasy

There's another great example of the way you unethically cheat at debate by using as many loaded terms, in this case "fantasy" as you can possible add into the conversation with the express intent on making it *personal*. That is pathetic and unethical behavior on your part RC.

that cosmological redshift can be caused by inelastic scattering by you.

There are *lots* of papers that describe the effect of various types of inelastic scattering in plasmas, including that one I handed you related to the Earth's magnetosphere. You've got *zero* published papers that rule out all types of inelastic scattering as "causes" of cosmological redshift. You guys are so *desperate* on this point that you're forced to go all the way back to Zwicky for *any* reference, and he only tried to rule out *a single* type of inelastic scattering from consideration, while *promoting his own* tired like theory no less! Some "reference"! You therefore constantly point me at *unpublished website rants* by Ned Wright, who does the same slight of hand with respect to Zwicky! Holy cow. What a mess. You cannot possible rule out all types of inelastic scattering, and in fact you folks *forgot to include them*, which is *exactly* why you you then require *three* supernatural claims to make up the difference, including 'space expansion', 'inflation', and 'dark energy'. Wow! Even the *physics flaw* in your own theory explain the need for the supernatural nonsense! Talk about *fantasies*. You have three of them going, and that's not including the fourth *billion dollar* failure you've had at finding exotic forms of stable matter.

You have to supply evidence, not fact less fantasies, bad arguments and citing ignorant and even deluded people.

The only *published* reference I've seen from you to address the elimination of *any* possible cause of inelastic scattering I've seen from you came from a 75 year old paper that only eliminated *one* possible type of inelastic scattering while promoting a completely different 'tired light' model!

Then I get the ever popular unpublished website rants from Ned Wright, and circular arguments galore! It's the "electrical discharges are impossible in plasma* claim all over again! No published support, just personal attack nonsense in every post. Hoy Vey. You're so predicable.

We've covered your erroneous claim about expecting overall blueshift through a relatively cool medium, but there you go again just ignoring every answer, and repeating your same old tired lies. It's getting old.

You never showed us any Z>10 images of galaxies that were not "blurry", so I can only assume that's another of your *fantasies* you must hold in order to prop up your blind faith in your other four supernatural invisible friends.

The LA Times newspaper article about Hubble's personal preference for a static universe and tired light theory was from December 31, 1941. If you've got a *published* paper after 1941 where he personally changed his mind and ruled out that possibility, we're waiting for that one too. Let's watch and see how you run from that request too. You have a proven track record of not producing any published support for your many erroneous claims.

Since you've failed to explain how your "dark energy" remains constant over exponential increases in volume, your gross violation of the conservation of energy continues to infinity and beyond. :) Give me a break.

Even if we started with three mass objects equally separated by some distance, their "potential" energy will simply convert itself to *kinetic energy* at their point of impact. If we set them into motion away from a common point, they would still tend to "slow down" over time. There is absolutely no conservation of energy happening in your constant density 'dark energy' "blunder" theory. The total amount of dark energy continues to grow exponentially over time and gravity has been relegated to an almost insignificant influence.

Since you cannot even tell us where dark energy comes from *physically*, we can only assume it's another of your invisible 'fantasies' you hold to avoid embracing empirical (lab tested) alternatives to your creation mythology.
 
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Michael

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More evidence against tired light theories - they also redshift the CMB but that can destroy a blackbody spectrum.
The Standard Cosmological Model

Well, here's the first outrageously dishonest statement from that particular paper:

The standard cosmology assumes conventional physics, including general relativity theory.

Er, no. Perhaps it "begins" with conventional physics, but then it takes a "leap of faith" in no less than *four* unique forms of "supernatural theoretical concepts" that have *never* been seen on Earth.

GR theory is complete and whole and completely independently valid without the need for *any* the following *supernatural* extensions:

A) "Space expansion"
B) "Inflation"
C) "Dark energy"
D) "Dark matter"

All four of those claims are *far beyond* any sort of "conventional" physics. Your appeal to an authority routine is looking pretty flimsy from the start of his paper. He's in pure denial that LCMD theory deviates from "conventional" physics four different ways, and to the tune of at *least* 95 percent of the entire theory.
 
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Michael

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Basically a lie by citing a blogger talking about tired light, not Hubble :eek:!

So basically you accuse everyone of lying to you because you're too tired lazy to read the article and the cited papers?

Hubble Eventually Did Not Believe in Big Bang: Associated Press does not actually cite any of Hubble's papers or actual quotes from Hubble.

Actually the links that are referenced on that website do cite the specific papers involved, and the LA times includes quotes from Hubble himself talking about a static universe.

The denial thing is pretty much your last line of defense apparently.

Here's another nice recap of Hubble's views:

http://www.hiltonratcliffe.com/edwin-hubble-forgive-us-we-knew-not-what-we-did/

Even the Universe Today points out his 1947 commentary:

http://www.universetoday.com/100918/are-our-textbooks-wrong-astronomers-clash-over-hubbles-legacy/

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1947PASP...59..153H

In the nebular [galaxy] spectra the stations (or lines) are shifted toward the red, and these redshifts vary directly with distance–an approximately linear relation. This interpretation lends itself directly to theories of an expanding universe. The interpretation is not universally accepted, but even the most cautious of us admit that redshifts are evidence either of an expanding universe or of some hitherto unknown principle of nature.”

That's just a few years before he died RC.

Unlike the mainstream's erroneous claims, Hubble did *not* claim to "prove" that the only possible explanation for photon redshift was "expansion". That's just another false claim that the mainstream tells to unsuspecting children. I can't tell you how many times I've heard erroneous video comments to the effect that "Hubble proved that the universe was expanding" without even mentioning the other alternatives that he wrote about as alternatives.
 
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Michael

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An ignorant statement about Eddington...

...because that's what you do, you misrepresent everyone from Peratt to Eddington, and everyone in between. :(

Eddington never predicted the temperature of the CMB. Eddingtion did not look at scattering from an imaginary "dust of spacetime" or even actual dust.

https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0521337089/

In the first chapter Eddington calculates the temperature of the dust as a function of scattering of starlight, and he calculated it to be 3.18 degrees, within 1/2 of one degree of the correct temperature. Meanwhile, *dacades later*, early Big banger "estimates" were off by a whole *order of magnitude. I think it took them three tries to even get it into the right ballpark or any closer than Eddington.

Denial the published facts all you like, but they remain in the published archives for all the world to see RC. Denial seems to be your only means of defense in fact other than the personal attack nonsense of course.
 
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Michael

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Basically a lie by citing a blogger talking about tired light, not Hubble :eek:!
Hubble Eventually Did Not Believe in Big Bang: Associated Press does not actually cite any of Hubble's papers or actual quotes from Hubble.

In other words you were too lazy to follow any of the links on that page, or do any research of your own, so you took the low road and attacked the individual (of that particular blog) again. How sad that you have nothing but denial and insults to work with RC. It's making the conversation rather boring, particularly since all your cause/effect claims with respect to photon redshift are pure "acts of faith" on your part.

Got any published papers that demonstrate that inelastic scattering of all types can be ruled out, yes or no? If not, you've got nothing.
 
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Michael

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FYI, for anyone following along, the published paper below describes the empirical laboratory relationship that Chen et al. found between the number of free electrons present in the plasma, and the amount of photon redshift that they observed in their experiments:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0030402608000089

This is yet *another* "tired light" possibility that was recently put forth which describes the net effect of photons traversing a photon sea of energy. The photon/photon interaction is the proposed "cause" of photon redshift in this "tired light" *published* presentation.

http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperInformation.aspx?paperID=53652

I'm not sure if this concept was ever "lab tested", but since it involves real things, there is no reason to believe that it cannot be "put to the test' in a real lab experiment.

Keep in mind that even a *tiny* amount of redshift that might be due to some type of tired light phenomenon makes the entire "dark energy" claim irrelevant and unnecessary. Unfortunately for the mainstream, there would go 70 percent of the LCDM model and it would lay waste to anyone's career that has been focused on "dark energy".

Keep in mind that even a *tiny
 
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Do you *ever* make a post ....
Do you ever write a post that
  • does not contain irrelevant rants or
  • does not obsess with some dead scientists who were sometimes wrong, e.g. Hubble, or
  • cites relevant science or
  • seems to add to your statements of ignorance?
21 November 2016 Michael: More evidence against tired light theories - they also redshift the CMB but that can destroy a blackbody spectrum.
The paper is about the standard cosmological model. One point it raises is that the spectrum the CMB as actually measured is evidence against tired light.

7 November 2012 Michael: Read Compton scattering (Compton scattering produces blue and red shift!)
7 November 2012 Michael: Where is the scientific literature linking Chen's redshift with cosmological redshift?
13 November 2012 Michael: Where are your citations of astronomers observing blurring of distant objects?

17 November 2016 Michael: Why have astronomers not any blurring of millions of images of galaxies up to high z relative to nearby galaxies.

16 November 2016 Michael: Cite the scientific literature that states Brillouin scattering can reproduce cosmological redshift.
16 November 2016 Michael: Show that any redshift caused by an expanding universe can be detected in labs here on Earth.

16 November 2016 Michael: List the sponsors of "Holushko's model" and where it was published via those sponsors.
16 November 2016 Michael: List the authors (plural) who have papers stating that they are testing "Holushko's model".
18 November 2018 Michael: List the scientific literature stating the detection of any tired light effect working in the lab.
18 November 2016 Michael: How does a static universe explain a black body CMB with a temperature that increases with distance and its angular power spectrum?
18 November 2016 Michael: Cite the publication of Herman Holushko's cosmology work in a scientific journal.

21 November 2016 Michael: Citing Hubble who died in 1953 before the enormous evidence for an expanding universe was discovered, e.g. the CMB in 1964 :doh:!
21 November 2016 Michael: Eddington never predicted the temperature of the CMB (specifically in his 1926 book The Internal Constitution of the Stars).

21 November 2016 Michael: Cite the textbooks on and scientific reviews of the cosmological "EU/PC theory" explaining what the Lambda-CDM model explains.
21 November 2016 Michael: Do you agree that the physical evidence makes a decades long "comets are rocks blasted off planets..." story a delusion?


21 November 2016 Michael: Violation of the conservation of energy by an expanding universe is at least ignorant and maybe a lie.
 
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FYI. You may wonder why Michael did not quote the title of the Chen paper - it is a form of lying by omission because the title is:
Investigation of the mechanism of spectral emission and redshifts of atomic line in laser-induced plasmas
Galaxies are not lasers as in Chen's experiment :eek:!

A citation of Light Red Shift in Cosmic Background Photon Gas which is photons not scattering in plasma. It is photon-photon scattering and rather bad. Classically photons cannot scatter at all since they have no charge but QED adds higher terms which allows scattering that shows up for example in gamma-ray lasers! The author asserts that photons have a magnetic moment and cites his unpublished preprint from 2010.

7 November 2012 Michael: Where is the scientific literature linking Chen's redshift with cosmological redshift?
 
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Michael

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FYI. You may wonder why Michael did not quote the title of the Chen paper - it is a form of lying by omission because the title is:
Investigation of the mechanism of spectral emission and redshifts of atomic line in laser-induced plasmas
Galaxies are not lasers as in Chen's experiment :eek:!

What a ridiculous response, but what else would I expect from you? The laser was simply a *source of photons* RC. Notice that since photons are *real*, they have *real* sources, unlike your invisible "dark energy" sky thingy.

A citation of Light Red Shift in Cosmic Background Photon Gas which is photons not scattering in plasma. It is photon-photon scattering and rather bad.

Bad? You haven't provided us with a published rebuttal. That's "bad". Your constant use of *yourself* as your sole reference is "bad" too RC. The only "bad" thing going on in this thread is your massive denial process. I handed you at least two published papers that provided two published *alternatives* to your nonsense, and the only thing you can do is cite yourself. It's a childish and irrational pattern that you fall into when you don't have a *published rebuttal* to offer.

I've handed you two published "tests" of the tired light model, and both of them work just fine to replace your supernatural nonsense, and both options can be *lab tested*, unlike your "space expansion" nonsense.
 
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Michael

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Do you ever write a post that
  • does not contain irrelevant rants or
Ya RC. In fact I handed you two *published* papers on the topic, neither of which you refuted with a *published* rebuttal. Instead you personally *ranted* about both papers and did *nothing* to support your statements with *published* rebuttals.

does not obsess with some dead scientists who were sometimes wrong, e.g. Hubble, or

I love how when *I* cite Hubble or Birkeland, or Alfven, they are just some dead scientists who are sometimes wrong, but when *you* cite any of them, they're some kind of dead super science heroes. What an outrageous double standard.
cites relevant science or

I cited a total of three published references, all of which are relevant. You however didn't respond with a relevant *published* rebuttal. Notice a pattern?

seems to add to your statements of ignorance?

Your entire claim is an argument from ignorance RC. You've never actually ruled out scattering in a *published* rebuttal just Compton scattering as it's sole source, at best case. You seem however to have simply "ruled out" all types of inelastic scattering from consideration based on *your personal opinions*, not *published rebuttals*. Notice that pattern RC? It's rearing it's ugly head again. Here's where you start linking to *yourself*, not published rebuttals:


Yep. No *published* rebuttal to support your own claim, just your own personal handwaving, where you set yourself as judge, jury and executioner. BZZT. Eddington explained the CMB *without* anything other than pure scattering of starlight on the dust of spacetime. Deal with it RC.

The paper is about the standard cosmological model. One point it raises is that the spectrum the CMB as actually measured is evidence against tired light.

Provide us with the *direct quote* from the author to support that claim please. You won't of course, which is why I asked you for it. :)



Irrelevant since Chen never made any such blueshift link. Doppler shift also produces blue and redshift. That doesn't rule out moving object options either.



I handed you a generic "tired light" "test". A static universe concept *passes* that test. It's a generic model for *all* types of scattering, not just one type or two types.



Where is your image of a Z>10 galaxy that *isn't* blurry RC? I"m still waiting to see it, like I'm waiting for a published reference that claims that electrical discharges are "impossible" in plasma. We both know you're never going to provide us with either request.


Quote please where they said there is never any kind of blurring anywhere in spacetime. This I gotta see.

The rest of your list is just more of the same nonsense where you handwave in your own personal claims, *without* any published support, or you ask for references I don't need to provide in the first place.

The bottom line is that you folks have *never* ruled out scattering as the culprit in *published* papers. That's why I get nothing from you but links to Ned Wrights *unpublished rants* and citations to one paper by Zwicky who was selling his own *tired light* alternative as some kind of goofy rebuttal to all tired light models! Holy cow. What a mess you guys made on that front. You *should* have made some attempt to rule out ordinary processes in plasma. You never did. Instead you created an invisible sky creation mythology around four supernatural constructs! Pitiful. Simply pitiful.
 
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