Why I'm Orthodox . . . and why others may want to be too.

[fragmentsofdreams]

I'm referring to your comment

Man has 2 possible eternal destiny's: Heaven or Hell. To state we all go either way is an assumption, and as I said above, a dangerous one.

Those are not his words, but the words of another. You'd be well served to find the source of those words.

 

[geocajun]

Those are not his words, but the words of another. You'd be well served to find the source of those words.

I know full well who said it, and in what context.

context is your friend.

Let us never pretend the Holy Father stated that everyone gets to heaven.In the objective sense, Man was created destined for heaven - that is a fact;
and to each of us in the subjective sense, man must come to know Jesus and desire to be a part of His Church to get there, and that is another fact.

Properly representing the faith is crucial.
Nowhere did the Holy Father even imply that "we all go to heaven so why bother evangelizing the gospel, enough blood has been shed, etc..." as was implied here.

 

[Benedicta00]

Other Christian religions use deception to cover up sin. The Greek Othodox tradition of multiple marriages clearly does not have its root in Jesus Word. The idea we are all conceived immacualtely denies parts of scripture, and blinds people to the fact they are cursed by their ancestors sins. With this type of deceit there is no hope of forgiveness for "all" the sins one carries, even the sins of their dead ancestors. Denial is no better a solution than making things up.

This right here drives home the reason why I disbelieve the EO side of the schism is the true side of the split.

I do not deny the Orthodox, linage and legitimacy of their diocese, they are true churches but they just didn’t want to come along for the ride as the Holy Spirit guided us through the evolution of theology. For me it’s their lack of moral theology that shows me thy aren’t the true church.

Today’s moral issues (marriage, contraception etc) are to much left up to the subjectivness of our fallen flesh. I guess that would tie into their denial of original sin. They tend to let the flesh rule in these areas and preach forgiveness but yet, when one of their own clergy falls, they want to cut him off with no compassion or mercy.

I just don’t see this as being scriptural- what Jesus taught us, it’s reminds me of the Jewish Pharisees being intolerant when they need tolerance and being laxed when they need to call what it is (sin) what it is, (sin).

 

[eoe]

BAH!

Just want to remind the people reading that like 90% of the EO on this forum are not reading GT threads and are not participating.

 

[geocajun]

WHERE'S YOUR OBJECTIVE PROOF!!! Just kidding . . . it's an inside joke. See now that's the kind of candor I personally love. Thank you, Geo.

Basil

Thanks
I too appreciate your candor, though we obviously disagree.

 

[geocajun]

BAH!

Just want to remind the people reading that like 90% of the EO on this forum are not reading GT threads and are not participating.

the same would go for the Catholics on the board who have given up on GT either in general, or just for Advent.

 

[CaDan]

"I am John, your brother!"

And what happens to brothers who wander away from home? Perhaps Jesus has a clue for us:

But while he was yet at a distance, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him.​

The Good News of our salvation.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

I know full well who said it, and in what context.

context is your friend.

Let us never pretend the Holy Father stated that everyone gets to heaven.In the objective sense, Man was created destined for heaven - that is a fact;
and to each of us in the subjective sense, man must come to know Jesus and desire to be a part of His Church to get there, and that is another fact.

Properly representing the faith is crucial.
Nowhere did the Holy Father even imply that "we all go to heaven so why bother evangelizing the gospel, enough blood has been shed, etc..." as was implied here.

I don't see a call to end evangelism. Rather, I see a call to end the false evangelism where we use our words like swords against those who disagree with us.

 

[geocajun]

I don't see a call to end evangelism. Rather, I see a call to end the false evangelism where we use our words like swords against those who disagree with us.

Where do we see someone using words like swords?
Those who distinguish right from wrong? Was St. John the Baptist a bad evangelist, or what about Jesus who came to set fire to the earth?

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

Where do we see someone using words like swords?
Those who distinguish right from wrong? Was St. John the Baptist a bad evangelist, or what about Jesus who came to set fire to the earth?

Several on both sides have struck out with verbal daggers in attempts to draw blood. Being on the correct side doesn't excuse these attacks. We are called to convert our enemies, not destroy them.

 

[CaDan]

"Peter, put your sword in its sheath"

 

[geocajun]

Several on both sides have struck out with verbal daggers in attempts to draw blood. Being on the correct side doesn't excuse these attacks. We are called to convert our enemies, not destroy them.

I completely agree with that - but remember, St. John the Baptist is a Saint. He pulled no punches when declaring what was right and what was wrong. Jesus did not say "John, stop be so brusque" but rather said there was none greater than him. There are many means to evangelize, and some are more effective on some people and others on other people. And while "destroying them" is not a valid means, we should take care not to condem folks who speaking strongly as 'destroyers' anymore than St. John was when he called referred to the pharisees as a brood of vipers.

 

[Polycarp1]

I completely agree with that - but remember, St. John the Baptist is a Saint. He pulled no punches when declaring what was right and what was wrong. Jesus did not say "John, stop be so brusque" but rather said there was none greater than him. There are many means to evangelize, and some are more effective on some people and others on other people. And while "destroying them" is not a valid means, we should take care not to condem folks who speaking strongly as 'destroyers' anymore than St. John was when he called referred to the pharisees as a brood of vipers.

Well, as someone who believes devoutly in the Real Presence in the Eucharist and the importance of the Apostolic Succession, which you yourself, Jason, are on record as denying exists in my tradition, may I respectfully direct you to the passage where Christ denounces the Pharisees, Matthew 23.

For this little game of "we're right, and you're wrong, because we say so, has gotten a bit stale on both sides of the C/O fence. Paul VI and Athenagoras had things to say that are hardly echoed in the words of those who claim to follow them.

[bible]John 17:20-23[/bible]

 

[CaDan]

I completely agree with that - but remember, St. John the Baptist is a Saint. He pulled no punches when declaring what was right and what was wrong. Jesus did not say "John, stop be so brusque" but rather said there was none greater than him. There are many means to evangelize, and some are more effective on some people and others on other people. And while "destroying them" is not a valid means, we should take care not to condem folks who speaking strongly as 'destroyers' anymore than St. John was when he called referred to the pharisees as a brood of vipers.

Is this the same John who said, "He must increase; I must decrease"? Perhaps that gives us some insight into the relevance of John's methodology.

But call me crazy.

 

[geocajun]

Well, as someone who believes devoutly in the Real Presence in the Eucharist and the importance of the Apostolic Succession, which you yourself, Jason, are on record as denying exists in my tradition, may I respectfully direct you to the passage where Christ denounces the Pharisees, Matthew 23.

For this little game of "we're right, and you're wrong, because we say so, has gotten a bit stale on both sides of the C/O fence. Paul VI and Athenagoras had things to say that are hardly echoed in the words of those who claim to follow them.

[bible]John 17:20-23[/bible]

Poly, i'm confused. Are you requesting that I simply pretend we are 'one' or what exactly? Because we aren't in communion, no matter how much we try to pretend we are.

 

[geocajun]

Is this the same John who said, "He must increase; I must decrease"? Perhaps that gives us some insight into the relevance of John's methodology.

But call me crazy.

Are you meaning to imply that him saying that, was a sign that all the stuff he said before is irrelevant?

 

[vanshan]

The Greek Othodox tradition of multiple marriages clearly does not have its root in Jesus Word.

This seems like a very minor issue upon which to hinge such great criticism--and your facts are not entirely true.

Above all, Christ taught that we must be merciful with each other and not legalistic in the application of His statutes. Yes, it's best if we marry and never break that convenant with God and our spouse. Out of mercy there are occassions when marriages can be ended in the Orthodox Church. To me this is symbolic of the greater measure of mercy found in Orthodoxy, reflecting the same mercy Christ has shown us all. We are not to be Pharisees.

Any later marriage services are actually services of repentance for ending the previous marriage.

Basil

 

[vanshan]

This right here drives home the reason why I disbelieve the EO side of the schism is the true side of the split.

Really. Are you reasons for denying the Orthodox faith that petty? How many Roman Catholic faithful divorce and remarry? We teach that divorce is wrong, but have mercy on those who struggle with their fallen human condition, allowing divorce, although it is always counted as sin and needs to be repented of, even when granted.

I do not deny the Orthodox, linage and legitimacy of their diocese, they are true churches but they just didn’t want to come along for the ride as the Holy Spirit guided us through the evolution of theology. For me it’s their lack of moral theology that shows me thy aren’t the true church.

Does God change? The Roman Catholic faith doesn't claim to be keeping the unchanging deposit of faith passed down by Christ, but claim they have been led by God's Spirit to change their teachings overtime through evolution. Do you believe them? Can anyone see the fruit produced by their doctrines over the centuries? Ripe and delicious or rotten?

Today’s moral issues (marriage, contraception etc) are to much left up to the subjectivness of our fallen flesh. I guess that would tie into their denial of original sin. They tend to let the flesh rule in these areas and preach forgiveness but yet, when one of their own clergy falls, they want to cut him off with no compassion or mercy.

Prove we let the flesh rule in areas of morality? Did Christ let flesh rule by being merciful to the woman at the well? This is the most ridiculous accusation I've heard you make. We show mercy, because we've been shown mercy. We forgive others, so that we will also be shown forgiveness. You cannot conclude that we encourage sin, we just don't treat it as legalistically as some. We are not shocked by the weakness of our fallen nature, but we welcome all into Christ's Church, in which they can struggle against sin, as one struggles against illness in a hospital. We clearly condemn sin and encourage a life of inward warfare against sin.

You obviously know nothing of Orthodox spirituality.

I just don’t see this as being scriptural- what Jesus taught us, it’s reminds me of the Jewish Pharisees being intolerant when they need tolerance and being laxed when they need to call what it is (sin) what it is, (sin)

I think you are accusing us of what you yourself may be guilty of. Forgive us for any error you may have seen, individually anyone in Christ's Church can fail to live perfectly according to Christ's teachings. We must all be humble enough to see, or want to see, our failure, so that we can advance in our spiritual life to greater heights. We call sin sin, and we believe each of us are the chief of sinners, not looking outward to judge others, but looking inward to judge our own hearts continually. This is central to following Christ and central to Orthodox spirituality.

Basil

 

[CaDan]

Are you meaning to imply that him saying that, was a sign that all the stuff he said before is irrelevant?

No.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

I completely agree with that - but remember, St. John the Baptist is a Saint. He pulled no punches when declaring what was right and what was wrong. Jesus did not say "John, stop be so brusque" but rather said there was none greater than him. There are many means to evangelize, and some are more effective on some people and others on other people. And while "destroying them" is not a valid means, we should take care not to condem folks who speaking strongly as 'destroyers' anymore than St. John was when he called referred to the pharisees as a brood of vipers.

But are any of the harsh words exchanged here profitable in the least?

What I see here is some Orthodox and some Catholics firing at each other in the hope that their side will have something left over when the dust settles. Neither side wins in this situation, and the Body of Christ suffers because of it.