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Why I'm not a young earth creationist...

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Hans Blaster

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I never said that you said anything about geochemists and evolutionists. That was a comment someone else made to me that I was responding to.

The "evolutionist" aspect of geochemistry has to do with postulated ages of the earth. If the estimation is predicated on unreliable dating methods. A geochemist can't be sure based on the dating method that their dating is accurate.

You see, I wrote when responding when you questioned where the date for Mt. St. Helens I quoted came from and how it was obtained:

The geochemists would disagree with you. I'd suggest you take it up with them. There are many dating methods, and different ones are used in different situations because some are better for somethings and others are better for other things.

Then you wrote in response:

Not all geochemists are evolutionists though; but you only heed the opinions of the ones that are. Why is that?

Let's be clear here:

The term "evolutionist" is used by a few evolutionary biologists (that is biologists who specifically study the mechanisms of evolution) to self-describe, but people who accept the theory of evolution as a descriptor of the origin of species, etc., do *not* use that term to self-describe. Only creationists on sites like this one use it to characterize their opponents. Evolution isn't a dogma or philosophy.

So:

"Creationists say ..." and "Scientists say..."
 
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The Righterzpen

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Yes, but that would only extend half lives. Creationists need to cut half lives down. Way down.

Yet if the half life of carbon 14 dating isn't consistent; why would anyone assume electron capture would be consistent too? Especially considering it wasn't in a lab test. Shouldn't science be duplicatable?

https://www.nrel.colostate.edu/asse...l-lab/docs/NREL_Paul_Campbell_ss_1967_Aug.pdf

Fossil Fuels May Bring Major Changes to Carbon Dating

A geochemist would know that that the dates were reliable.

LOL the dates wouldn't be reliable if the testing method is proved not to be.
 
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coffee4u

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Because YEC is initself a stance on physical reality (what science is all about).

The only reality that I subscribe to is what God has told us in scripture. If scripture happens to coincide with science then that is nice but it doesn't bother me if it doesn't.
I am not here to talk science, I really don't care about it. I posted to reply to the OP who said they wanted a YEC view, so that is what I gave. I am a YEC because this is what scripture teaches and I believe this is what God did.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Let's be clear here:

The term "evolutionist" is used by a few evolutionary biologists (that is biologists who specifically study the mechanisms of evolution) to self-describe, but people who accept the theory of evolution as a descriptor of the origin of species, etc., do *not* use that term to self-describe. Only creationists on sites like this one use it to characterize their opponents. Evolution isn't a dogma or philosophy.

So:

"Creationists say ..." and "Scientists say..."

OK - fair enough distinction made between evolutionary biologists and geochemists.

Yet if one must make the distinction of "evolutionary biologist" reason would dictate that there must also be biologists who are not evolutionists. (Or at least Darwinian evolutionists.).

Then a geochemist who says the earth is billions of years old using dating methods that are known to produce inconsistent results?

What category would you put them in; seeing how obviously they adhere to the macro evolutionary timetable?
 
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The Righterzpen

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The only reality that I subscribe to is what God has told us in scripture. If scripture happens to coincide with science then that is nice but it doesn't bother me if it doesn't.
I am not here to talk science, I really don't care about it. I posted to reply to the OP who said they wanted a YEC view, so that is what I gave. I am a YEC because this is what scripture teaches and I believe this is what God did.

You raise a good point here; considering the question of the OP.
 
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VirOptimus

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The only reality that I subscribe to is what God has told us in scripture. If scripture happens to coincide with science then that is nice but it doesn't bother me if it doesn't.
I am not here to talk science, I really don't care about it. I posted to reply to the OP who said they wanted a YEC view, so that is what I gave. I am a YEC because this is what scripture teaches and I believe this is what God did.

Science is a description of physical reality, denying it is denying physical reality.

My point stands.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Are you saying that the Strong Nuclear Force, a fundamental constant in nature, is somehow changed by a temperature change of a few hundred degrees?

I didn't say it; scientists said it. They said it in regards to the carbon 14 nuclear explosions emit. And there have been something like 2000 plus nuclear explosions on this planet. (Most of them related to bomb testing.)

Which apparently that form of carbon 14 is not a "fundamental constant in nature" as it "throws off" carbon 14 testing.

https://www.nrel.colostate.edu/asse...l-lab/docs/NREL_Paul_Campbell_ss_1967_Aug.pdf

Fossil Fuels May Bring Major Changes to Carbon Dating
 
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Hans Blaster

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Then a geochemist who says the earth is billions of years old using dating methods that are known to produce inconsistent results?

What category would you put them in; seeing how obviously they adhere to the macro evolutionary timetable?

In the category: "geologist" (or "chemist") or "scientist".

It is not a "macro evolutionary" timescale that sets the old age of the Earth, it is the chronology of rocks measured by geochemists.

The ideas of biology must conform to the ages of the rocks dead creatures are found in, not the other way around.
 
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Hans Blaster

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I didn't say it; scientists said it. They said it in regards to the carbon 14 nuclear explosions emit. And there have been something like 2000 plus nuclear explosions on this planet. (Most of them related to bomb testing.)

Which apparently that form of carbon 14 is not a "fundamental constant in nature" as it "throws off" carbon 14 testing.

https://www.nrel.colostate.edu/asse...l-lab/docs/NREL_Paul_Campbell_ss_1967_Aug.pdf

Fossil Fuels May Bring Major Changes to Carbon Dating

The NREL link doesn't even mention the word "temperature".

Nuclear explosions don't "emit" C-14, the emit neutrons and high energy photons (that knock neutrons from atoms) that can create C-14 from N-14.

Fossil fuel effects are related to the age reservoir effect (mixing in old, C-14 free, carbon changes the comparison base line).

But the only discussion of C-14 comes from my discussion of volcanic eruptions. Let me repeat:

YOU CAN'T DATE LAVA WITH C-14! (because lavas do not form from anything that has been in contact with the atmospheric carbon reservoir in a very long time.)
 
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The Righterzpen

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As I said before, C-14 is a *really* useless way to date volcanic rocks. They do not contain carbon that has been in the atmosphere in the last 50,000 years. Therefore, C-14 is irrelevant to the dating of Mt. St. Helens or any other volcanic flow.

But carbon 14 is commonly used in dating sedimentary rock fossils.

But you do find fossils in volcanic rock. Here are some fossils (including tree casts) formed recently in Hawaii:

Hawaii’s Amazing Lava Fossils

If you think that is cheating, the Petrified Forest formed when volcanic ash deposits covered downed trees:

I did define the differences between the three forms of rock and did state that petrified "fossils" are found in metamorphic rock. But I guess you missed that.

Animals can get buried in annual flood deposits.

Just because there may millions of years between the dating of individual layers does not mean that each layer took millions of years to form. I would recommend some basic geology.

So let me get this strait. We're talking about the Grand Canyon now. You are saying that bottom rock layer "A" was laid down quickly and than bottom rock layer "B" was laid down millions of years later?

In millions of years, rock layer "A" would have eroded before rock layer "B" was laid down. But that's not what we see in the Grand Canyon. We see strait flat layers of sedimentary rock laid right on top of each other.

You want to "recommend some basic geology". LOL I would recommend you just go take a look at some pictures of the Grand Canyon. What you see in that canyon doesn't match what you are saying!

See above. Petrified wood is a *FOSSIL*. That's why it looks like a dead plant. (Fossils can also exist in metamorphic rock that was in the sedimentary rock that was heated by magma (not lava). )

So is this how they think the petrified forests in Hawaii were formed? Can't say I'm sure how that would work seeing how Hawaii was formed by volcanos. I don't even know if / how much sedimentary rock on Hawaii. I assume there must be in places, as erosion would create sentiment from the lava flows. Hawaii has beaches; which the sand had to have come from somewhere. Much of Hawaii is lava flows though.

And Yes, I could see cooled lava flows growing trees on top of them. (There's trees there now.) and volcanic ash that was cool enough to bury trees that could have become petrified from the heat of magma from subsequent eruptions.

A similar thing happened in Pompeii. The pyroclastic flow (which is mostly deadly gasses that come down the side of the volcano before the ash that's blown into the atmosphere falls back to earth); killed the inhabitants, but the ash that fell later, was cool enough to bury the city without destroying it. That eruption made "fossil casts" of the people who died.

(Note that these lava flows were dated by argon dating methods.)

I'd have to do some research as to whether or not there are issues with argon gas dating like carbon 14 dating has.

Modern sand dunes *move*. That's what dunes do. Why would you expect a fossil in a current dune?

LOL Because you said sedimentary rock layers are laid down in the past just as they are today and you used sand dunes as an example of that.

What was the point of this paragraph? Oh, yeah, I said it was geology that first identified the earth as much older than 10,000 years. (The topic of the thread, you know.) What does the first discovery of dinosaurs or early work on evolution have to do with the discoveries of geology a century before?

The discoveries of geology were not "a century before". "Geology" prior to 1840 (which is contemporary to Darwin's life) basically consisted of finding rock ore that had metal that could be smelted to make tools and weapons.

Yeah, people found bones prior to 1840. The Chinese called them "dragon bones" and Europeans generally believed they were bones of human giants. There was no "science of geology" and certainly not one related to dinosaur bone hunting prior to 1840.

Nuclear physics predates 1938 and its purpose was to understand the nature of the atomic nucleus. Then more stuff you don't understand...

The differentiated science of nuclear physics started in 1938. The organization of it into its own science started in 1935. Yeah, discoveries were made about the structure of atoms about the turn of the 20th century and back into the 1880's they were playing around with x-ray machines. But "nuclear physics" prior to 1935 was pretty much part of the physics field.

WWII is really what brought it into its own standing.

But that of course is if you believe what Wikipedia says; which isn't always "spot on".

Nuclear physics - Wikipedia

Again, so what?

You are the one who asked about mapping the coast of Antartica and I gave you several examples. One of how they mapped the coast in our time (using satellites) and evidence that Antartica hasn't always been covered in glaciers. Because apparently there are ancient maps that have an accurate depiction of it's coast line (without the ice).
 
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The Righterzpen

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In the category: "geologist" (or "chemist") or "scientist".

It is not a "macro evolutionary" timescale that sets the old age of the Earth, it is the chronology of rocks measured by geochemists.

The ideas of biology must conform to the ages of the rocks dead creatures are found in, not the other way around.

The dating methods used by the geochemists to come up with the supposed age of the earth are not consistent. Science acknowledges that.

So therefore; you can not say that what they say about the age of the earth is surely accurate.
 
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Hans Blaster

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But carbon 14 is commonly used in dating sedimentary rock fossils.

I very seriously doubt this. C-14 is good for at best 50,000 years. Since almost all sedimentary rocks are older than that, why would anyone use C-14 to date fossils in sedimentary rocks? Your claims just don't make sense.
 
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The Righterzpen

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The NREL link doesn't even mention the word "temperature".

Nuclear explosions don't "emit" C-14, the emit neutrons and high energy photons (that knock neutrons from atoms) that can create C-14 from N-14.

Fossil fuel effects are related to the age reservoir effect (mixing in old, C-14 free, carbon changes the comparison base line).

But the only discussion of C-14 comes from my discussion of volcanic eruptions. Let me repeat:

YOU CAN'T DATE LAVA WITH C-14! (because lavas do not form from anything that has been in contact with the atmospheric carbon reservoir in a very long time.)

What is it about "carbon 14 dating fossils in sedimentary rocks" don't you understand?
 
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Hans Blaster

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You are the one who asked about mapping the coast of Antartica and I gave you several examples. One of how they mapped the coast in our time (using satellites) and evidence that Antartica hasn't always been covered in glaciers. Because apparently there are ancient maps that have an accurate depiction of it's coast line (without the ice).

You mentioned Antarctica first for some reason I can't fathom, or remember.

We know Antarctica hasn't always been covered in ice. It has fossils of tropical vegitation from millions of years ago.
 
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Hans Blaster

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What is it about "carbon 14 dating fossils in sedimentary rocks" don't you understand?

[Edit: Short answer: why you keep mentioning it.]

Post #192. Show me evidence that C-14 is *ever* used to date fossils in sedimentary rocks.
 
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The Righterzpen

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I very seriously doubt this. C-14 is good for at best 50,000 years. Since almost all sedimentary rocks are older than that, why would anyone use C-14 to date fossils in sedimentary rocks? Your claims just don't make sense.

Historically they dated sedimentary rock fossils using carbon 14 dating; claiming they were millions of years old. It's only recently they are saying (with in the past maybe 20 years) that carbon 14 dating is not accurate for something "over 50,000 years".

Yet even if dating something under 50,000 years; the date that you may get depends on other factors. (That's what those two articles were about.)

One factor is the form of carbon 14 that's a result of nuclear explosions.

The other factor is how much carbon is in the environment at the time the organism "ingests" it. The amount of carbon in earth's atmosphere has not remained consistent.
 
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The Righterzpen

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The Righterzpen

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Dude! You are the one that keeps talking about "strait lines".

Take a geometry class. They really are not used.

Or maybe a spelling class.

By the way, you owe me an apology.

I owe you an apology for what; smiley faces?
 
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Hans Blaster

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Historically they dated sedimentary rock fossils using carbon 14 dating; claiming they were millions of years old. It's only recently they are saying (with in the past maybe 20 years) that carbon 14 dating is not accurate for something "over 50,000 years".

No. One. Says. That.

The half life of C-14 is about 6000 years. That had to be known for C-14 dating to have any value.

Early C-14 dating was less accurate and could not extend as far back in time or use samples as today. In the not to distant pass, a more reasonable limit for C-14 dating would be about 20-25,000 years. Modern techniques are *more* sensitive.

No one ever would have proposed using C-14 dating on materials though to be millions of years old, nor would any honest person claim a C-14 result indicated a million-year age.
 
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