why I'm not a christian

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Originally posted by LeftHand
First, I want to respond to something HisSavingGrace said. He stated that we are all equally guilty. I beg to differ. I hate to use this as an example, but there is no way you can convince me that I am just as guilty as Osama bin Laden. And here's the problem: if Osama were to become christian, then no matter what I do in my life to help others, if I haven't accepted Jesus as my savior, then Osama gets into heaven and I do not. This makes no rational sense to me. I was the better person in life by far, but I am still damned to suffer in hell for all time. There is no logic in this thinking. :confused:
I honestly can't stop you from disagreeing. In fact, it's not my place. This is in the bible. The acceptance of Christ and the true repentance are what is needed to enter Heaven. Paul was not better than Bin Laden, yet his place in heaven is assured.

We are all equally guilty according to the bible. It's not my opinion, it is in the bible. There are no "levels" of sin. Anyone who comes to Christ but continues to sin does not truey know Christ, nor does Christ know that person.. Paul, James, Peter, John, and Jude all state this repeatedly.

ANYONE, reguardless of background or past, has the right to enter heaven as long as they do what we are told to do for enterance. We MUST accept Jesus Christ, and God through Him, and we must repent truly. That does not mean mouthing the words. God knows when the repentance is true.

And if Bin Laden were to do this, his place is assured by the bible. Jeffery Dahmer supposedly confeesed his faith in Christ and repented truly to God before he was killed in Jail. If he did it the same way you and I have to do it, He will be in Heaven with us, even if we don't like it. After all, it's God's home, He has the right to invite whomever He chooses. We have no say in the matter.

If that is unacceptable, then your do not know true love and forgiveness, and hence can NOT know God. I can post over 50 verses that explain that in the NT, but it is much better if you read the bible yourself and saw where it states that.
 
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Ok. Amazingly, His Saving Grace, I have read the bible and I know full well what it says about salvation. And the number of quotes you can pull from the bible means nothing to me. I have read them all.
But you have hit on the very thing I am going after. In other words, I predicted what you would say.
So here is another question. If our actions during this life hold no bearing on our eternity, is life then meaningless other than to answer one question?
Also, hell would have to be a place for sinners as well as those who choose not to put faith into Jesus for lack of hard evidence. And if you MUST accept Jesus as savior to enter heaven, then I guess the millions that will never hear of christ are out of luck.
 
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LouisBooth

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Well first of all

"If our actions during this life hold no bearing on our eternity, is life then meaningless other than to answer one question? "

No, it is to accept christ and do his will. Before you say anything else let me tell you one thing...his will is the best for us. LIke a parent telling you what they know to be the best for you..don't touch the stove, its hot.

"And if you MUST accept Jesus as savior to enter heaven, then I guess the millions that will never hear of christ are out of luck."

Nope, it is written that everyone knows one way or another. Do I understand that fully? Nope, but I accept it. You haven't read the bible if you didn't know that ;) I think you were a little too quick to say that. May I ask exactly what you read?
 
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Originally posted by LeftHand
Ok. Amazingly, His Saving Grace, I have read the bible and I know full well what it says about salvation. And the number of quotes you can pull from the bible means nothing to me. I have read them all.
But you have hit on the very thing I am going after. In other words, I predicted what you would say.
So here is another question. If our actions during this life hold no bearing on our eternity, is life then meaningless other than to answer one question?
Also, hell would have to be a place for sinners as well as those who choose not to put faith into Jesus for lack of hard evidence. And if you MUST accept Jesus as savior to enter heaven, then I guess the millions that will never hear of christ are out of luck.
I am not sure why you are trying to be a bit hostile towards my answer. You very well may have deduced what MY answer would be, but that has no bearing at all on the discussion. It's only use is for braggado. I won't indulge in that.

But the second part is not true. That is the beliefs in some forms of christianity, but not in mine. Those who have not heard the word of Jesus/God can not have directly rejected the salvation offered by Jesus. As I said, that is why babies enter heaven if they die as babies/little children. They do not have the information to reject God/Christ.


As to your last statement, I do not believe in the hell we have been taught. There is no hell of eternal torment, fire, pain and suffering. It wasn't until the people who wrote the bible came into contact with the pagans that hell started showing up in the scriptures of a flaming place of endless suffering. Hades is the Greek God of the underworld. Yet another term we have for hell IS Hades.

Until about 500 years before the birth of Christ, the Jews thought of a place called Sheol as the eternal resting spot for ALL until the day God called them all forward and judged them. Those who were righteous entered heaven. Those who we righteous most of their live spent a God alloted amount of time in Sheol. The worse the offender, the longer time in Sheol. Those who rejected God spent eternity in this suspended animation state.

And I wan't trying to insult you by indicating you hadn't read the bible. But as we all do, we froget many things we read. The details, over time, become fuzzy, and sometime, biased do to a preconception. I was asking you to go through the NT again, because I have seen that when I post a multitude of verses, most people don't read them all, but jump down to where they can respond. As my hands were already cramping, and this was my goal for you, I didn't post any. If I gave you the wrong impression with my wording, I sincerely appologize, since that was NOT my intention.

Bless you and all those you love. May God's peace find you again, and stay with you for always.
 
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As to your last statement, I do not believe in the hell we have been taught. There is no hell of eternal torment, fire, pain and suffering. It wasn't until the people who wrote the bible came into contact with the pagans that hell started showing up in the scriptures of a flaming place of endless suffering . Hades is the Greek God of the underworld. Yet another term we have for hell IS Hades.

I highlighted these words because they say that the people that wrote the bible changed their story. If they change a part of the bible as important as hell, how can any other part of the bible be trusted to hold any complete truth? If something as minute as discovering more pagans can change the authors' ideas of how the bible should be written, what effect could a larger and more significant assimilation of culture have on its creation? The hell of eternal punishment is what I read of in every bible, and it is what I hear of at every church service I attend. And if you were to ask most christians to describe hell, they would paint the same picture.

And please, don't think that I am being hostile. It was a bit much. I apologize. And I am not trying to shake your faith. I intend only to discuss the matters with you for my own information, and maybe yours as well. :cool: ?
 
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I highlighted these words because they say that the people that wrote the bible changed their story[/QUTE]

Actually, they don't have anything to do with changing THEIR story at all. The bible was not written by one authour, but by many. And each author had their own life experiances, which led to them telling the story to others in a form that would help gain converts. Long afterwards is when these stories were place on payrus, or skin. This is THEIR part of the stary and they didn't change that at all. The bible is a compilation of many book written over many centuries through the eyes of many people. Some is written in narative form, while others is written in the first person. The concept of a firy Hell showed up after the Babylonian exile, and long after their contact with Egypt. From what the archeologists have discovered and theologians as well as religious historians have found an area that held the name used in the bible for hell, in which the people of that area WAS into human/infant sacrifice, and that after the sacrifice, the bodies of those were sent to a burning pit which was burning endlessly because they used their conquered slaves as the sacrifices, so their was no limit to the fuel to the fire. In Hebrew, the word used for "hell" actually is more discriptive of this place (The name escapes me right now)

We know that Hell is not under our feet any more than the sky is heaven. Does that make the bible a lie? No, it just means that the minds writing much of the book were very primative. They really DID believe "the sky's the limit".

If something as minute as discovering more pagans can change the authors' ideas of how the bible should be written, what effect could a larger and more significant assimilation of culture have on its creation?
Again the bible was not written by one author. The Babylonian epic "Gilgamesh" also has the flood story in it. Was our version taken from them? theirs from ours? or because it really happened and more than one culture passed the story down? All three are theories that have foundations in truth and have been suggested by minds much more learned than mine. But we must admit it is interpretation that makes a belief. There are some 50,000 forms of christianity on earth right now. Each has most of the basics the same, but will divert in other things enough that is it a different sect of christianity. The muslim belief has all of the OT Saints, and ALSO acknowledge the existance of Jesus. Why are they not all the exact same thoughts and beliefs? Because no matter WHAT we want, our area and customs, and experiances dictate our beliefs to some extent. The bible wasn't changed, the faith did.
The hell of eternal punishment is what I read of in every bible, and it is what I hear of at every church service I attend. And if you were to ask most christians to describe hell, they would paint the same picture. [/QUOTE] Well I do find this insulting since it is basically stating that if I don't agree with the fundelmentalist forms of christianity, then I am not a christian. Since I don't think that is what you intended, I will address your question as if the insult didn't exist.

The hell described in every bible was down. Dig down and find it. Heaven was above. How did we miss it on the way to the moon? Dinosaurs never existed. Why? Because the people of the time could not comprehend the full truth. Try and explain a spiritual dimension to a child today. Would they understand if you used techincal terms? Or would you tell them the "Santa Story" because they were children. The people of that time thought that the man's seed is all the was needed for a baby to be born. The woman did nothing but allowed the mans seed to grow and nurish. There was no "egg".

I really don't care what many people teach about the existence of Hell. Do you realize that almost EVERYONE mental version of Hell comes from the book "Dantes Inferno"? The paintings came from the descriptions in that book. Our idea of satan came from those pictures. Our movies then came from those picture and what we believed. Hell is a creation of those church leaders who felt the need to scare people into conversion. The problem they don't understand is God knows what is true love, and what is fake love through fear. He only wants our true love. If you need the fear of Hell to bring you to God, then we all know that the love we show is not pure. It is fearlaced, and therefore not true love at all.

If I can not convince someone to come to God through the Joy I have of him inside of me, then either my joy is through fear, and therefore unrecognizable, or the other person has decided and does not want to really learn, but more to try and show off the mistakes in my beliefs.

The NT describes in detail the way we are to bring people to Christ. They will see it in everything we do, and everything we say, and how we act under stress. You see, it is true we are not "saved" by our deeds. It is ALSO true that those who will not do the deeds of Christ were never truly saved.

And in all honesty, anyone full of the Holy Spirit in truth has no options BUT to do the deeds. Their Holiness can be seen in their eyes. And they have a one on one relationship with God. The conversations are mutual. People have and will continue to be saved and never have read the bible. The bible is our book of guidelines. It is for those who will teach. Those who teach are the ones responsible for the conversion of other to help insure they stay from sin. Those who don't teach are responsible for bringing those to Christ with their loving actions.

May I ask you what your beliefs are and how you came to where your faith (or lack of) today began?
 
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To the one who found out they do not want to be a Christian, because the guilt factor. You need to be saved and following Jesus so you will not be loaded down in guilt. He is willing to take that load. He paid a terrible price to free you of guilt, try again by first repenting, believing in Jesus, accepting Him as Lord of your life and Savior. Don't let skeptics persuade you to stay in guilt...Here is a great poem I love, hope its a blessing to you. Bro. Gil

Anvil Of God's Word


Last eve I paused beside a blacksmith's door,
And heard the anvil ring the vesper chime;
Then looking in, I saw upon the floor,
Old hammers worn with beating years of time.
"How many anvils have you had," said I,
"To wear and batter all these hammers so?"
"Just one," said he, and then with twinkling eye,
"The anvil wears the hammers out, you know."
And so, I thought, the Anvil of God's Word
For ages skeptic blows have beat upon,
Yet though the noise of falling blows was heard,
The Anvil is unharmed, the hammers gone.

-Author Unknown
 
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Debbie

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some of us dont believe in "once saved always saved" so the previous quote about life isnt about anything other than believing in Jesus is an incorrect assumption.
First of all, sorry I dont know the verse, but God is looking for empty vessels like you to fill with "peace & joy".( Ga. 5)
So the only thing preventing you from recieving Christ as your saviour is demonic suggestion. It's put a stumbling block in your way .
You will be forgiven of your sins & not BE guilty once you take HIm as your Saviour. So do you like feeling guilty?
I am a mother of a son. If My SOn had to die for you to be saved, I would also demand that you have guilt until you accept Him. Wow, is that too much to ask?
 
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edjones

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Originally posted by lig75

To the one who found out they do not want to be a Christian, because the guilt factor. You need to be saved and following Jesus so you will not be loaded down in guilt. He is willing to take that load. He paid a terrible price to free you of guilt, try again by first repenting, believing in Jesus, accepting Him as Lord of your life and Savior. Don't let skeptics persuade you to stay in guilt...Here is a great poem I love, hope its a blessing to you. Bro. Gil

Anvil Of God's Word


Last eve I paused beside a blacksmith's door,
And heard the anvil ring the vesper chime;
Then looking in, I saw upon the floor,
Old hammers worn with beating years of time.
"How many anvils have you had," said I,
"To wear and batter all these hammers so?"
"Just one," said he, and then with twinkling eye,
"The anvil wears the hammers out, you know."
And so, I thought, the Anvil of God's Word
For ages skeptic blows have beat upon,
Yet though the noise of falling blows was heard,
The Anvil is unharmed, the hammers gone.

-Author Unknown
 
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