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why I'm not a christian

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by djranko, Feb 9, 2002.

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  1. djranko

    djranko New Member

    7
    +0
    For the first 25 years of my life I walked with my head down. I carried a burden of guilt. I could not look another person in the eyes. I was living as every christian who takes the bible seriously should, with guilt.

    What is the nature of this guilt? In the begining Adam sought knowledge (rationality), gained knowledge of good and evil (morality) and the punishment was to toil in the fields(productivity). Now we face this life with a God who is un-knowable for the wisdom of man is foolisness before God. We are condemned for failing to live up to a standard which is not attainable for all have sinned and fall short.

    What can I do?

    My sin is that I was born. My crime is that I am a Man. And my guilt is that I exist.

    Not any more. Rationality, morality, and productivity summarily condemned as evil.I now hold them as my highest virtue for they are the means by which we all exist.

    I pronounce myself NOT-GUILTY!

    [email protected]
     
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Nails&ThoRns

    Nails&ThoRns Member

    189
    +0
    umm...

    have you ever had a double-double animal style from In-n-Out?

    those are good!
     
  3. His_Saving_Grace

    His_Saving_Grace New Guy on the block

    43
    +1
    It really sounds like the church or religious upbringing was similar to mine in which I was basically taught to love God out of fear of what would happen if I DIDN'T love God.

    It took me 40 years and dying on the operating table during open heart surgery to reallize that is not the love God wanted from me nor anyone else. God wants us to love Him because we CHOOSE to love Him. Those who converted out of fear can not really claim the biblical Love (Agape) which transends so much the love we know on a daily basis.

    We are not supposed to walk with our heads down out of guilt, we are supposed to walk with our heads held high, because WE have the love of God, and we CHOOSE to Love Him back the same way.

    I would like, if you don't mind the trouble, of you telling me more explicitally what it is in your teachings that made you feel that you were supposed to feel guilt or shame. I can not guarantee that I will give you an answer you will accept, but I promise I will give you the most honest answer I can possibly give, even if that answer is "I really don't know."

    Don't declare yourself to not believe in Jesus, nor deny God, because of the teachings of those who NEED to teach fear to show they are gaining converts. That is what happened in the church starting about the 4th century AD. For the first 300 years, every christians really DID love everyone as their brother. They really DID sell everything and give it all to the communal christian system and then they moved into the group with them. The rich, the poor, the well, the infirmed, the happy, the devestated, no matter who you were, as long as you accepted Jesus, Loved God with all your heart, and loved everyone else the same way you loved yourself, you were part and got the exact same feelings returned to you 100 fold.

    The big difference between then and today, is people have such a hard time loving each other UNCONDITIONALLY. Without reservation. Without condemnation. If you sinned, it would be pointed out, and they would help you be strong to stay from that sin. Those who continued to commit the very same sin repeatedly were rebuked and taught. If they continued to behave that way, then they really didn't accept Jesus, because the Holy Spirit lives in each person whoconfesses (to God in prayer, you do NOT need a mediary) their sins, and truely does work to stop them. And with the Holy Spirit inside, and the communal system in place on the outside, christianity grew no matter how hard they were tortured, how many that were killed, how many leaders martyred. The only way it COULD grow is because they not only taught the way of Jesus, they LIVED the way of Jesus.

    I will be here for you, as God is ALWAYS there for you. If you ever need strength, I will give you all of mine. If your faith weakens, I will give you mine.

    But never believe a christian lives his life in guilt or with head down. Raise it high because THAT is the Glory that is God. Let HIM shine through your eyes, and in every action.

    I am sincere in my offer, and I know there are others here who will do the same. There is no shame in asking for help. That is the reason I joined this forum. I needed loving fellowship to offset the hate and anger in another forum. I needed the strength and faith I can get from here, so I could go back there, and do everything God has commanded me to do to bring souls back to God. I welcome you with open arms, open heart, open eyes, and probably the best of all, open mindedness.

    God bless you and all those you love. May God's hand touch you again, and may you never again feel the need to remove His hand from you.
     
  4. solo66 man

    solo66 man Well-Known Member

    +2
    That is funny. i lived the first 46 years of my life feeling the same as you did the first 25 years. Then I was saved, thanks to God, and was given a whole new life. I was really born again. I now have a new dream and a new life, because I have the undying love of God and am forgiven.
    I really think you are missing the whole point of being saved.
    Take another look with a different and real pespective. You do not know what you are missing.

     
  5. tericl2

    tericl2 A Work in Progress

    741
    +6
    Christian
    Heb 10:22 (NIV) "let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. v23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful."

    This verse is giving four conditions for drawing near to God. We must have a sincere heart number 1. Number 2 we have full assurance of faith. This sis a faith that shows no hesitation in trusting in following Christ. The third is a freedom from guilt based on the once and for all atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ for all our sins. The fourth is bodies washed with pure water. This could be baptism but is most likely, taken in the context of the whole chapter, signifying and inner cleansing by comparison with what the priests in the old testament and under the old covenant did in the temple to cleanse themselves.
    In verse 23 we are further instructed to hold unswervingly to the hope we profess for he (GOD) who promised is faithful. We have no doubt or hesitation about our redemption in Christ.
    Romans 6:14 says "For sin shall not be your master , because you are not under law, but under grace."
    We are not perfect creatures because of the original sin. We will not attain that perfection until Jesus comes to take us home.
    I hope I have pointed out, at least a little, that we do not need to live under guilt. We have a true liberty and freedom under the authority of Christ. We must subject our spirit to that authority, whereby God will give us strenght and perseverence to overcome.
    Romans 4:23-24 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
    Paul reiterates Jesus' words in II Corinthians 12:8. Paul was asking the Lord to remove the "thorn" that Paul had. Jesus says "My grace is sufficient for you for my power is made great in weakness." His grace is surely sufficient for us!!
    Another verse that speaks of the redeeming power of the Lord is II Cor. 5:19 "that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them . And he has committed us to the message of reconciliation."
    We are justified by his grace through faith in him and in that grace. I sincerely hope that you will re-think your position. Through the Word and the Spirit we can overcome the very human feeling of guilt for we have been saved and redeemed if only we will accept His gift of grace and depend wholly on Him to change our hearts and minds.
    It does take work but the rewards will be worth it.

    Love in Christ
     
  6. Mike K

    Mike K New Member

    64
    +1
    Adam sought to be "like God". Independant, without need of a higher source. (irrational- much like a toddler with the same desire)

    "gained knowledge of good and evil (morality)"

    The knowledge he gained was of how far he had fallen. He learned of morality by becoming immoral. Without his previous choice, the point was moot. (morality - a new invention).

    "and the punishment was to toil in the fields(productivity). "

    His 'punishment' was self-inflicted. He got what he desired, and the result was self-reliance. (Productivity? Maybe. But why farm the desert when the garden was plentiful, and free?).

    "Now we face this life with a God who is un-knowable for the wisdom of man is foolisness before God."

    Man's wisdom has nothing to do with 'knowing God'. Unless it is our wisdom we use to know Him. No matter what we think, He is still the same and still desires to walk with us in the garden. Our wisdom can't fathom that.

    "We are condemned for failing to live up to a standard which is not attainable for all have sinned and fall short."

    We are condemned for choosing to attempt a standard for which we were never created to attain apart from God. That choice alone is the reason for which we all have (and do) sin and fall short.

    "What can I do?"

    See the above posts. :)

    "Rationality, morality, and productivity summarily condemned as evil."

    While the terms alone may not constitute evil, they are certainly a product of a bad choice.

    "I now hold them as my highest virtue for they are the means by which we all exist."

    Humanistic religiousness in it's highest form. Since you feel you cannot be reconciled to God, it is all you have. Thus the guilt feelings.

    "I pronounce myself NOT-GUILTY!"

    Which is the only pronunciation a man seperated from God can make. Imagine what it would feel like for God himself to pronounce you, NOT-GUILTY.

    When you willingly choose to accept Christ as the payment for your sin, God in fact makes that proclamation. I pray you make that choice. Guilt is a terrible thing bro.

    mk
     
  7. djranko

    djranko New Member

    7
    +0
    "Adam sought to be "like God". Independant, without need of a higher source. (irrational- much like a toddler with the same desire)"

    I am not sure where you get the "Independent" part. I would be interested in a scripture that would back it up because it implies that they sought to seperate from God prior to actually eating the fruit. Nevertheless, I assume "like God" comes from Gen 3:4, they will be like God in that they know good and evil. Yes, our irrational quest for wisdom, perhaps they should have just been happy right? Why try to improve yourself when you can live like a robot, an ignorant robot at that! Well...fundamentally a robot, they were free to do as they please as long as they did what God told them to do.

    "The knowledge he gained was of how far he had fallen. He learned of morality by becoming immoral. Without his previous choice, the point was moot. (morality - a new invention)."

    The moot point of morality. Now we have this terrible burden of having to actually decide on our own what is right and wrong. That sounds like freedom to me? What were we before we became moral beings? We were A-moral ie robots!

    "His 'punishment' was self-inflicted. He got what he desired, and the result was self-reliance. (Productivity? Maybe. But why farm the desert when the garden was plentiful, and free?)."

    Are you sure it was free? read on!

    "We are condemned for choosing to attempt a standard for which we were never created to attain apart from God. That choice alone is the reason for which we all have (and do) sin and fall short."

    I can't decipher most of what your trying to say but in the end you agree with me that all of us have sinned and fall short. That is a good start since I took it right out of the Bible. But the point is, how can I be guilty for failing to achieve what is stated to be impossible?

    "While the terms (rationality, morality, and productivity) alone may not constitute evil, they are certainly a product of a bad choice."

    Yes! Doesn't anyone see a serious problem here? These three virtues were the product of sin. Don't take me the wrong way, I am not advocating sin. There are about a hundred questions that need to be explained here. For example, What were we before? Apparently we were irrational, A-moral, and unproductive. We were about as much use as this gum wrapper on my desk! Our three greates virtues have been denounced as sin or punishment. If you don't think they are virtuous I dare you to try and live without them, you will be dead or in jail by the end of the day.

    "Humanistic religiousness in it's highest form. Since you feel you cannot be reconciled to God, it is all you have. Thus the guilt feelings."

    I don't have guilt any more!
     
  8. Mike K

    Mike K New Member

    64
    +1
    "I am not sure where you get the "Independent" part.

    God is independant of anyone. He alone sustains Himself. The serpant told Eve that she would "Be like God". i.e. self-sustaining.

    "Yes, our irrational quest for wisdom, perhaps they should have just been happy right? Why try to improve yourself when you can live like a robot, an ignorant robot at that! Well...fundamentally a robot, they were free to do as they please as long as they did what God told them to do. "

    Your term "robot" does not accurately describe the condition of Adam and Eve prior to the fall.

    A robot is programmed to perform a particular task, much like the computer you are now using. It lacks the ability to reason. Adam and Eve would be more accurately described as children dependant upon God (parent).

    "Now we have this terrible burden of having to actually decide on our own what is right and wrong. That sounds like freedom to me? "

    They had the opportunity to decide before they fell. The only command given them was "don't eat of that tree". Seemed simple enough don't you think? They lost their freedom that day and became slaves of the natural world.

    " But the point is, how can I be guilty for failing to achieve what is stated to be impossible? "

    Because man was never created with the ability to achieve divine standards apart from God. That's the lesson of the garden, and the message of Christ.

    " What were we before? Apparently we were irrational, A-moral, and unproductive."

    Adam and Eve were unproductive? They were given the job of managing everything, under God's supervision. They were given the mandate to "fill the earth" and "subdue it". Sounds pretty productive to me. Adam was given the job of naming all the animals. Certainly taht was no easy or "unproductive" task.

    "A-moral"? I covered that above. There was only one commandment. Don't, and they did. The subsequent "knowledge" that accompanied their actions produced a number of other "moral" issues.

    " Our three greates virtues have been denounced as sin or punishment."

    Our three greatest virtues have been denoucned by God as "filthy rags" and serve no purpose other than self-elevation and fluffy feelings that help us sleep at night. The virtues are a result of seperation from God. We now see that which we lost and we desperately attempt to get it back. The problem is, we can't do it without God. That is the reason God sent a once for all sacrifice, Jesus Christ. The choice is ours, continue trying to get there on our own, or do it His way.

    mk
     
  9. tericl2

    tericl2 A Work in Progress

    741
    +6
    Christian

    I hope you read my earlier post. Of course we have all sinned and fallen short. This is the first thing a person must recognize if they want to take part in an eternal salvation. For, if we haven't sinned then what is there to be saved from and what would be the point of Jesus' sacrifice??
    I fear you are on here just to argue and not to really try to gain any other perspective on the issue. I would like to give you another verse though, because I can't change you or your thinking. The Holy Spirit can though, and i will be praying for you.

    I Cor. 10:13 (NIV) "No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it."
    God says in his word that he will be with us. He will always provide a way for us, but it is our choice whether or not to take that "way".
    Adam made the original choice that got us all into this mess. Now we as humans are born with a sinful nature. But "God so loved the world that he gave his only Son to die for us that whoever should believe on him (Jesus Christ) will be saved." (paraphrased from John 3:16)
    So, we are not held guilty for "failing to achieve what is stated to be impossible", for our perfection is never asked for. All that is asked is that we strive for perfection, to be like Christ. God clearly states that redemption and sanctification come only through him and our belief and faith in him. We don't have to do anything but make a choice to accept the gift he offers us and we are redeemed! Don't let the chance pass you by!!!
    The only thing you are guilty of is not accepting the gift that has been offered to us all. And, that, is by no means stated to be impossible!!

    Love and Hope in our Redeemer ----Eric
     
  10. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
    Pentecostal
    Married
    >>I pronounce myself NOT-GUILTY!

    Only with God though Jesus can we be found "NOT-GUILTY". Because Jesus took our guilt upon Himself. You may proclaim yourself anything you want, but that does not make it true.

    We do not have to carry the burden of guilt, becasue Jesus carried it for us. The only burden we have to carry is a burden for the lost and for those who need to come to a saving knowledge of the truth.

    Matthew 11:28-30
    Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. [29] Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. [30] For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."
     
  11. djranko

    djranko New Member

    7
    +0
    "Of course we have all sinned and fallen short. This is the first thing a person must recognize if they want to take part in an eternal salvation."

    This is exactly what I can not accept! How can you accept the premise that we were tried, sentenced and convicted before we were even born? To hold me guilty in a matter in which I had no choice is a mockery of morality. To be convicted in a matter where no innocence exsists is a mockery of reason. To hold my very nature as my sin is a mockery of nature. To be juilty before I was born is a mockery of justice.

    How can anyone accept it? If you do accept it how can you not hate yourself and the world and everything in it?
     
  12. Yauming

    Yauming Member

    368
    +1
    I'm not a thelogian. But I do not believe that we are not "tried, sentenced and convicted" before we are born. Some people hold onto that belief though.

    When Adam sinned, it resulted in sin entering this world. All of us however are now born with the propensity to sin. We in fact love it. Admit it, we love to sin.

    But thanks to Jesus Christ, He has given us the opportunity to be reborn again- to reach a stage where we actually hate sin and can fight temptation as He did - and have victory. Well, most of the time at least. But most importantly, God does not judge our salvation by our earthly performance. God only sees the blood of Jesus on us- cleansing us of our sins and making us perfectly holy in His sight.

    YM

     
  13. Mike K

    Mike K New Member

    64
    +1
    djranko,

    Man (a general term) was created in God's image. You and I were created in the image of our parents, and they, their parents etc. all the way back to the beginning.

    Because of this we were born seperated from God. I'm going to stop here because unless you fully understand this there is no point explaining further.

    Because we were born out of fellowship with God and with the knowledge of good and evil, we must choose to return to that fellowship. His perfect plan is for us to be with Him eternally and enjoy Him and His provision. Even if we choose Him now, our natural bodies must live out their mortality (a result of being born seperate).

    "To hold me guilty in a matter in which I had no choice is a mockery of morality."

    You have a choice. See above.

    " To be convicted in a matter where no innocence exsists is a mockery of reason. "

    God is perfect. We are not. Our reasoning cannot fathom the wisdom of the creator. Innocence exists in the person of Jesus. And again, we have a choice whether or not to accept that innocence.

    "To hold my very nature as my sin is a mockery of nature. "

    Yes, it is. Our very nature is in itself a mockery of what God intended.

    "To be [g]uilty before I was born is a mockery of justice. "

    From your above reasoning it would appear that you are attempting to judge God based on your own limited view of fairness and justice. Let me ask you this. If your mother was a cocaine addict prior to your birth, and you were born with certain defects, is that fair? Regardless of your view of fairness you will still pay the price for her decision. We were all born 'defective' and God alone has the cure, free to all who ask.

    mk
     
  14. His_Saving_Grace

    His_Saving_Grace New Guy on the block

    43
    +1
    I think there is a point that was left out of your teaching. Some of us were taught that sex was the original sin. Others would say (and be more online from what is in Genesis) that the original sin was disobeying.

    Since to disobey the laws of morality is wrong (in the government sense, it is termed illegal, and lack of knowledge of the law is no excuse, as we are told so often in court) it is considered a sin. As babies, we often disobey. It is in us to discover the world around us. All the wisdom taught to us often means nothing until we actually experiance it ourselves. So we are "born" to sin.

    Until we actually COMMIT a sin, we are blameless. (That is why I am against the catholic belief that infants MUST be baptised, but that is another conversation).

    But we WILL disobey if we live long enough. We will look with lust, or covet, or take some money we see on a counter that we KNOW isn't ours, or take the neighbors newspapers or do SOMETHING that is of a sinful nature. Reguardless of belief in God or not, we ALL have done something we regret, and that is morally wrong and we recognise that fact.

    So yes, we are all sinners. How do I live with it? The same way I live with everything. The same way I remember my own hard headedness when I was told something and did it anyway, and I see the same happen to any of my children.

    The way that you DON'T let it get you down and down on the world is realising that we are ALL equally guilty. No one has ANY special rewards over anyone else. All we can do is search for Joy in our lives. I find mine in Jesus. I find mine is the miracle of birth. I find mine in a field full of butterflies. I find mine laying on the ground outside staring at the stars. I find mine in the loving touches of my children. I find mine in speaking with others about God, and the changes made in my mental outlook in life.

    I find my joy everywhere, because I LOOK for joy. When I am depressed, I LOOK for grief.

    Where will you find your Joy? I am not talking happiness, because that can not compare to the JOY that is God. I am talking about what makes YOUR eyes shine? What makes those who look at you in the store smile? what is it that you see in the eyes of those who love you? Do you really "see" anything, or is it what you "feel" that you see? That love is just a small portion of what is God.

    I am a sinner. I will die a sinner. I believe I am following everything God taught us. I believe in the afterlife. And I believe in beauty. God placed beauty here for all of us to enjoy, believer or non-believer. It rains one all, the sun shines on all. Faith has nothing to do with this. Only LOVE is a gift that doesn't come to all. It is something we ALL have the capacity to give, and more than anything want to receive.

    And THAT is what you see in the eyes of someone who truly loves you. And that is just one tiny fraction of the love you feel when you know that you have dedicated your life to the Love of God, the Love of Christ, and the love for all of His creations on this realm. And you can only experiance it if you love ALL that God created JUST for YOU, and Just for ME.
     
  15. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
    Pentecostal
    Married
    >>How can you accept the premise that we were tried, sentenced and convicted before we were even born?

    God does not hold people accountable tell they are able to choose between right and wrong. NO one knows exactly what age that is. Although most children are innocent up tell the age of about 12. The Bible makes it very clear, that they are innocent if they do not know their left from their right hand.

    Jonah 4:11
    And should I not pity Nineveh, that great city, in which are more than one hundred and twenty thousand persons who cannot discern between their right hand and their left--and much livestock?"

    I would guess that there was no "mad" cow disease in Nineveh.

    This is why in so many of the "left behind" books, it talks about how the babies are taken in the rapture, but their parents are left behind. Thanks, JohnR7
     
  16. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
    Pentecostal
    Married
    >>If your mother was a cocaine addict prior to your birth, and you were born with certain defects, is that fair?

    God can straighten all of that out. There is no one that God does not have a wonderful plan for them and their life. Starting right now, right where they are at.
     
  17. LeftHand

    LeftHand New Member

    8
    +0
    First, I want to respond to something HisSavingGrace said. He stated that we are all equally guilty. I beg to differ. I hate to use this as an example, but there is no way you can convince me that I am just as guilty as Osama bin Laden. And here's the problem: if Osama were to become christian, then no matter what I do in my life to help others, if I haven't accepted Jesus as my savior, then Osama gets into heaven and I do not. This makes no rational sense to me. I was the better person in life by far, but I am still damned to suffer in hell for all time. There is no logic in this thinking. :confused:
     
  18. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
    Pentecostal
    Married
    >>I was the better person in life by far, but I am still damned to suffer in hell for all time. There is no logic in this thinking

    I agree, there is no logic in your thinking at all.

    First of all, God is a God of Justice. You seem to believe in justice, so you can rest assured that those who reject Jesus will get Just what they justly deserve.

    The good news is, that God offers a pardon to everyone. God is no respector of person, so He does not favor one person over another. All are offered forgiveness and redemption.

    Those who accept God's wonderful offer of forgiveness, will be pardoned. Because the price has been paid. Jesus actually paid the price for us, so we could be forgiven.

    Those who choose to reject God's offer of pardon and forgiveness will be sentanced and they will get exactly what they deserve according to their crime.

    Even then there is mercy, because I do not believe God judges them for rejecting the provision His son made for them. Even though He shed His precious blood for their benifit, and they reject that provision that God made for them.

    God is Just God, but He is also a God of love, mercy, grace and forgiveness. We get to choose what we want. IF we want justice, God will give us justice. IF we want love, mercy, grace and forgiveness. That is what we will receive. IT is up to us. We are given that freedom of choice. Thanks, JohnR7
     
  19. VeraciousMaven

    VeraciousMaven Jesus Saves!

    753
    +2
    The logic fails when you think of it in such 'earthly' terms. If it were that simple then yes, it would be unfair, but sin is like a virus ... you can't get out of the 'quarantine zone' just because you have less infection. You're going to need an antidote ... and only you can ask for it.



    God bless!
     
  20. MatthewDiscipleofGod

    MatthewDiscipleofGod Senior Veteran

    +261
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    djranko I'm reading a book and I think it would be of great help to you. It's called Mere Christianity. In fact even a person that loves God with all their heart, soul and mind would probably find this a good book. It's by a great author C.S. Lewis who once himself was an athiest. So many good things in it and you can get it for as little as $7.97 like I did new for more then 200 pages of really good reading!
     
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