Why I Think Christmas is Not Biblical (Please read OP before posting).

[LittleLambofJesus]

It's interesting that the "wise men" who visited Jesus at His birth were pagan. They were literally astrologers from the East. And God used something they understood (a star) to point them to Jesus.

Wonder what that's all about?

I was doing a translation of the 7 churches in Revelation and the Church of Smyrna fascinated me because of the scriptural meaning of it.

Myrrh is one of the things the "wise-men" brought to infant Jesus.

Revelation chapter 2 - 1st four Churches
The Assembly of Smyrna

The word "myrrh" is only used in 2 verses of the NT.
At the birth of Jesus and at His burial

Matthew 2:11
and having come to the house, they found the Child with Mary His mother, and having fallen down they bowed to Him,
and having opened their treasures, they presented to Him gifts, gold, and frankincense, and myrrh,
John 39
18 and Nicodemus also came -- who came unto Jesus by night at the first --
bearing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, as it were, a hundred pounds.
19 They took, therefore, the body of Jesus, and bound it with linen clothes with the spices, according as it was the custom of the Jews to prepare for burial;

Here is an interesting commentary on it:

Smyrna means “sweet smelling” and comes from the root word for myrrh.

The myrrh plant is found throughout the Middle East and was used in the manufacture of an aromatic ointment. When bruised and crushed, the myrrh gives forth a lovely fragrance.
Myrrh was used to embalm the bodies of the dead. Carefully the linens were prepared, and wound around the bodies of the loved ones, while myrrh was packed between the folds of the cloth. Thus was the body of our Lord embalmed!

After the death of Jesus, the women, who had loved and followed Him on earth, brought one hundred pounds of myrrh and aloes to the tomb. With what grief did they take that precious body and wind about it the linen cloths! With what untold tenderness did they lay it away in the bed of fragrant spices!
Thus myrrh is a type of suffering and death, and some in the church at Smyrna were to pass through bitter persecution, severe trials, and intense testings, as a picture of that which all of God’s called and chosen elect must also pass through. Their sufferings, however, instead of destroying them, would give forth the rich perfume of heaven, the life of the spirit!

 

[Kaon]

<K>I am not pagan. I didn't truly stop celebrating Christmas until I was in my mid 20's - after a lot of my own research, giving up Christmas-taking it back-giving it up, and a general spiritual odyssey for truth. It was not easy to reconcile how historically pagan some "Christian" holidays are, but I had to get over if since it is a matter of the spirit.
What is the saying, "Can't put lipstick on a pig"? How can we be justified celebrating Solis Invictus by calling it Christian and claiming we are crusading against the pagans?<end>
The anti-Christmas diatribes are early this year. I have been active on this forum for about 2 decades and every year before Christmas the "Christmas is pagan" diatribes begin. First you have the name wrong. It is not "solis Invictus" it is "Sol Invictus." Strike one. "Sol Invictus" was celebrated at the winter solstice which this year is Dec 21. NOT 25. Strike 2.

1. The name is not wrong; I left out the Deis Natalis because I figured it was understood we were talking about birthdays in general. The full name is Deis Natalis Solis Invicti.

You are describing a Latin grammar error between the nominative, and genitive case - of which I did make a mistake. But, not on the word: the root word is the same, and conjugated on my part poorly - at worst.

2. Deis Natalis Solis Invicti is celebrated on December 25 - specifically during the astronomical event in which the sun shows an increase in inclination. You are thinking of the preparation before the actual celebration of the birth of the sun - December 21 - when the sun is at its alleged lowest inclination. It "dies" for three days, and then rises again on the 25th. December 21st was the beginning of the Death and (Re)Birth of the Unconquered Sun; December 25th was the celebration of the actual (re)birth.

.....Some people when they hear something like this "pagan Christmas" nonsense they do actual research others believe anything they read online as long as it attacks or criticizes anything Christian. Nothing pagan has been incorporated into the Christian observance of the birth of Jesus. Nothing! All the commercial stuff trees, wreaths, etc. are outside the church. Christians are not responsible for what non-Christians do on Dec 25 or any other day of the year.

I don't know who those people are, but I had access to both virtual and edifice libraries in my research. We were taught about Roman history, Greco-Roman Mythology, and a good amount of world history from 2500 BC onward in my high school, and then in University I had even more resources and opportunity to do my own academic research. All of it is "pagan," but more importantly all of it is old, and regurgitated rituals based on antediluvian and early Babylonian mystery religions. You may think it is nonsense, but 1000s of years of history beg to differ. Or, if that is how you want to rationalize what you believe, then that is your prerogative.

You can go to the local Library, or Library of Congress, and I can give you the ISBN numbers of real academic literature that would make the same academic conclusions that I am regurgitation. This is nothing new, especially if you know history, or even mythology.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Source needed for this.

I took the time to track down his source.

"
Vol XIII, p 84

EPISTLE LXXVI.: TO MELLITUS, ABBOT
[A famous letter in which Gregory;s understanding of the methods and psychology of conversion to Christianity is demonstrated]
Gregory to Mellitus, Abbot in France.

Since the departure of our congregation,

85

which, is with thee, we have been in a state of great suspense from having heard nothing of the success of your journey. But when Almighty God shall have brought you to our most reverend brother the bishop Augustine, tell him that I have long been considering with myself about the case of the Angli; to wit, that the temples of idols in that nation should not be destroyed, but that the idols themselves that are in them should be. Let blessed water be prepared, and sprinkled in these temples, and altars constructed, and relics deposited, since, if these same temples are well built, it is needful that they should be transferred from the worship of idols to the service of the true God; that, when the people themselves see that these temples are not destroyed, they may put away error from their heart, and, knowing and adoring the true God, may have recourse with the more familiarity to the places they have been accustomed to. And, since they are wont to kill many oxen in sacrifice to demons, they should have also some solemnity of this kind in a changed form, so that on the day of dedication, or on the anniversaries of the holy martyrs whose relics are deposited there, they may make for themselves tents of the branches of trees around these temples that have been changed into churches, and celebrate the solemnity with religious feasts. Nor let them any longer sacrifice animals to the devil, but slay animals to the praise of God for their own eating, and return thanks to the Giver of all for their fulness, so that, while some joys are reserved to them outwardly, they may be able the more easily to incline their minds to inward joys. For it is undoubtedly impossible to cut away everything at once from hard hearts, since one who strives to ascend to the highest place must needs rise by steps or paces, and not by leaps. Thus to the people of Israel in Egypt the Lord did indeed make Himself known; but still He reserved to them in His own worship the use of the sacrifices which they were accustomed to offer to the devil, enjoining them to immolate animals in sacrifice to Himself; to the end that, their hearts being changed, they should omit some things in the sacrifice and retain others, so that, though the animals were the same as what they had been accustomed to offer, nevertheless, as they immolated them to God and not to idols, they should be no longer the same sacrifices. This then it is necessary for thy Love to say to our aforesaid brother, that he, being now in that country, may consider well how he should arrange all things. God keep thee safe, most beloved son. Given this 15th day of the Kalends of July, the 19th year of the empire of our most pious lord Mauricius Tiberius Augustus, the 18th year after the consulship of the same our lord, Indiction 4.

trans. J. Barmby in Selected Epistles of Gregory the Great , in Library of Nicene and Post Nicene Fathers, 2nd Series, Vol. XIII, (New York: 1895) [reprinted since by variety of publishers], p. 84-85



Vol XIII: p. 81

EPISTLE LXV. To AUGUSTINE, BISHOP OF THE ANGLI
Gregory to Augustine, &c.

Though it is certain that for those who labour for Almighty God ineffable rewards of an eternal kingdom are reserved, yet we must needs bestow honours upon them, that by reason of remuneration they may apply themselves the more manifoldly in devotion to spiritual work. And, since the new Church of the Angli has been brought to the grace of Almighty God through the bountifulness of the same Lord and thy labours, we grant to thee the use of the pallium therein for the solemnization of mass only, so that thou mayest ordain; bishops in twelve several places, to be subject to thy jurisdiction, with the view of a bishop of the city of London being always consecrated in future by his own synod, and receiving the dignity of the pallium from this holy and Apostolical See which by the grace of God I serve. Further, to the city of York we desire thee to send a bishop whom thou mayest judge fit to be ordained; so that, if this same city with the neighbouring places should receive the word of God, he also may ordain twelve bishops, so as to enjoy the dignity of a metropolitan: for to him also, if our life is continued, we propose, with the favour of God, to send a pallium but yet we desire to subject him to the control of thy Fraternity. But after thy death let him be over the bishops whom he shall have ordained, so as to be in no wise subject to the jurisdiction of the bishop of London. Further, between the bishops of London and York in the future let there be this distinction of dignity, that he be accounted first who has been first ordained. But let them arrange by council in common, and with concordant action, whatever things may have to be done in zeal for Christ; let them be of one mind in what is right, and accomplish what they are minded to do without disagreement with each other.

But let thy Fraternity have subject to thyself under our God not only those bishops whom thou shalt ordain, and those whom the bishop of York may ordain, but also all the priests of Britain, to the end that they may learn the form of right belief and good living from the tongue and life of thy Holiness, and, executing their office well in their faith and manners, may attain to heavenly kingdoms when it may please the Lord. God keep thee safe, most reverend brother. Given on the tenth day of the Kalends of July, in the 19th year of the empire of our lord Mauricius Tiberius, the 18th year after the consulship of the same lord, Indiction and.

trans. J. Barmby in Selected Epistles of Gregory the Great , in Library of Nicene and Post Nicene Fathers, 2nd Series, Vol. XIII, (New York: 1895) [reprinted since by variety of publishers], p. 81"


Internet History Sourcebooks Project

Is what is written here live up to his claims?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I took the time to track down his source.

"
Vol XIII, p 84

EPISTLE LXXVI.: TO MELLITUS, ABBOT
[A famous letter in which Gregory;s understanding of the methods and psychology of conversion to Christianity is demonstrated]
Gregory to Mellitus, Abbot in France.

Since the departure of our congregation,

85

which, is with thee, we have been in a state of great suspense from having heard nothing of the success of your journey. But when Almighty God shall have brought you to our most reverend brother the bishop Augustine, tell him that I have long been considering with myself about the case of the Angli; to wit, that the temples of idols in that nation should not be destroyed, but that the idols themselves that are in them should be. Let blessed water be prepared, and sprinkled in these temples, and altars constructed, and relics deposited, since, if these same temples are well built, it is needful that they should be transferred from the worship of idols to the service of the true God; that, when the people themselves see that these temples are not destroyed, they may put away error from their heart, and, knowing and adoring the true God, may have recourse with the more familiarity to the places they have been accustomed to. And, since they are wont to kill many oxen in sacrifice to demons, they should have also some solemnity of this kind in a changed form, so that on the day of dedication, or on the anniversaries of the holy martyrs whose relics are deposited there, they may make for themselves tents of the branches of trees around these temples that have been changed into churches, and celebrate the solemnity with religious feasts. Nor let them any longer sacrifice animals to the devil, but slay animals to the praise of God for their own eating, and return thanks to the Giver of all for their fulness, so that, while some joys are reserved to them outwardly, they may be able the more easily to incline their minds to inward joys. For it is undoubtedly impossible to cut away everything at once from hard hearts, since one who strives to ascend to the highest place must needs rise by steps or paces, and not by leaps. Thus to the people of Israel in Egypt the Lord did indeed make Himself known; but still He reserved to them in His own worship the use of the sacrifices which they were accustomed to offer to the devil, enjoining them to immolate animals in sacrifice to Himself; to the end that, their hearts being changed, they should omit some things in the sacrifice and retain others, so that, though the animals were the same as what they had been accustomed to offer, nevertheless, as they immolated them to God and not to idols, they should be no longer the same sacrifices. This then it is necessary for thy Love to say to our aforesaid brother, that he, being now in that country, may consider well how he should arrange all things. God keep thee safe, most beloved son. Given this 15th day of the Kalends of July, the 19th year of the empire of our most pious lord Mauricius Tiberius Augustus, the 18th year after the consulship of the same our lord, Indiction 4.

trans. J. Barmby in Selected Epistles of Gregory the Great , in Library of Nicene and Post Nicene Fathers, 2nd Series, Vol. XIII, (New York: 1895) [reprinted since by variety of publishers], p. 84-85



Vol XIII: p. 81

EPISTLE LXV. To AUGUSTINE, BISHOP OF THE ANGLI
Gregory to Augustine, &c.

Though it is certain that for those who labour for Almighty God ineffable rewards of an eternal kingdom are reserved, yet we must needs bestow honours upon them, that by reason of remuneration they may apply themselves the more manifoldly in devotion to spiritual work. And, since the new Church of the Angli has been brought to the grace of Almighty God through the bountifulness of the same Lord and thy labours, we grant to thee the use of the pallium therein for the solemnization of mass only, so that thou mayest ordain; bishops in twelve several places, to be subject to thy jurisdiction, with the view of a bishop of the city of London being always consecrated in future by his own synod, and receiving the dignity of the pallium from this holy and Apostolical See which by the grace of God I serve. Further, to the city of York we desire thee to send a bishop whom thou mayest judge fit to be ordained; so that, if this same city with the neighbouring places should receive the word of God, he also may ordain twelve bishops, so as to enjoy the dignity of a metropolitan: for to him also, if our life is continued, we propose, with the favour of God, to send a pallium but yet we desire to subject him to the control of thy Fraternity. But after thy death let him be over the bishops whom he shall have ordained, so as to be in no wise subject to the jurisdiction of the bishop of London. Further, between the bishops of London and York in the future let there be this distinction of dignity, that he be accounted first who has been first ordained. But let them arrange by council in common, and with concordant action, whatever things may have to be done in zeal for Christ; let them be of one mind in what is right, and accomplish what they are minded to do without disagreement with each other.

But let thy Fraternity have subject to thyself under our God not only those bishops whom thou shalt ordain, and those whom the bishop of York may ordain, but also all the priests of Britain, to the end that they may learn the form of right belief and good living from the tongue and life of thy Holiness, and, executing their office well in their faith and manners, may attain to heavenly kingdoms when it may please the Lord. God keep thee safe, most reverend brother. Given on the tenth day of the Kalends of July, in the 19th year of the empire of our lord Mauricius Tiberius, the 18th year after the consulship of the same lord, Indiction and.

trans. J. Barmby in Selected Epistles of Gregory the Great , in Library of Nicene and Post Nicene Fathers, 2nd Series, Vol. XIII, (New York: 1895) [reprinted since by variety of publishers], p. 81"


Internet History Sourcebooks Project

Is what is written here live up to his claims?

EGADS!!!!!
Do y'all think you could perhaps wrap some of your larger posts in quotes. Especially with large fonts..We can then click "expand" for it...thanks

EDIT TO ADD:
OR PUT THE LINK UP, THEN THOSE WHO ARE INTERESTED IN THAT STUFF CAN READ IT THERE........

 

[Daniel Marsh]

The Bible itself adopts phrases used of idols to describe the true God.

"
The religion of Ugarit and the religion of ancient Israel were not the same, but there were some striking overlaps. For example, the name of the ultimate divine authority at Ugarit was El, one of the names of the God of Israel (e.g., Gen 33:20). El was described as an aged god with white hair, seated on a throne. However, at Ugarit, El was sovereign, but another god ran things on earth for El as his vizier. That god’s name was Baal, a name quite familiar to anyone who has read the Old Testament. At Ugarit Baal was known by several titles: “king of the gods,” “the Most High,” “Prince Baal” (baal zbl), and—most importantly for our discussion—“the Rider on the Clouds.”

Baal’s position as “king of the gods” in Ugarit, Israel’s northern neighbor, helps explain the “Baal problem” in the Old Testament. Jereboam’s religion in the northern kingdom borrowed from Baal worship, and it soon began to look like there was no difference, or if there was a difference, they were so close that worshipping one or the other was just theological hair-splitting. This is what prophets like Elijah had to contend with. The people had no Bible. They had only the prophets and their words. When a prophet wasn’t around to set the record straight, it was easy to just do what the neighbors were doing—especially if your king didn’t care, or actually preferred it that way.

Given this state of affairs, it's not surprising that sometimes in the course of their preaching and writing, the prophets counted on familiarity with Baal to make their case that it was Yahweh, not Baal, who was the heavenly king. We know this was the case, since certain Old Testament books actually quote from the Ugaritic religious texts, most notably the one that modern scholars have called the Baal Cycle. Whereas the Baal Cycle would give Baal credit for things like sending rain and making the crops grow, the prophets would credit those things to Yahweh. The showdown at Carmel (geographically close to Ugarit) is a case in point. God had withheld rain and Elijah challenged the rain giver to a duel, which God won in glorious fashion (1 Kings 17-18)."What's Ugaritic Got to Do with Anything?

 

[Kaon]

It's interesting that the "wise men" who visited Jesus at His birth were pagan. They were literally astrologers from the East. And God used something they understood (a star) to point them to Jesus.

Wonder what that's all about?

I was hoping to get to that myself.

Those "Wise" men came after the Redeemer was already breathing and alive. That could have been three months later - in the winter. We know it had to be at least 40 days after Mary was pregnant because of purification reasons.

When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy.

And going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, s gold and t frankincense and u myrrh Matthew. 2:10-11
​

If the Redeemer was born sometime in September-October - during the week of Sukkot - then that means November-December of that year would be the earliest the wise men would be able to come to the house and see the Redeemer.

Now, since this was all from the foundations of the earth (and, if you believe stars are stars of orbit/space theory - not luminaries - then this "star" was set to give off its light at the exact time of the advent. That isn't too hard to imagine; just figure out when you want it to shine, and put it far enough away.

The Most High God uses people from other religions and cultures other than the Hebrews to recognize the revelations and gifts of the Most High God in order to highlight the importance - especially since the Hebrews had a history of non-belief/no faith. They didn't recognize the Redeemer when He walked with them. The Most High God did this at Exodus, with David and Bathsheeba, and a few other times in the canon.


What I believe is the Magi truly believed this was the personification of the Unconquered Sun, and went to worship. Gold is the biggest clue to this, because throughout history gold has been the gift humans give to the gods (which they accept, and sometimes demand). The joke is that they were the first ones - not devout/"Super Hebrews" - that even payed attention to the signs in the sky, and investigated prophecy that was permeated throughout Hebrew culture. The star was also important to the Magi for other astrological reasons, but it led them to the Redeemer whom (as educated academics in astronomy and astrology) may have even understood if this wasn't Sol, that it was "someone's god".

​

 

[RaymondG]

I think all Christians should not celebrate it for biblical reasons. That is why I had written a well thought treatise with Scripture for you to read or check out. If you do not want to hear it, then this thread is not for you then.

Is it ok that I take the day of when im given it, or should I demand to work that day because Im christian and shouldn't celebrate the day?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

The Bible itself adopts phrases used of idols to describe the true God.

"
The religion of Ugarit and the religion of ancient Israel were not the same, but there were some striking overlaps. For example, the name of the ultimate divine authority at Ugarit was El, one of the names of the God of Israel (e.g., Gen 33:20). El was described as an aged god with white hair, seated on a throne. However, at Ugarit, El was sovereign, but another god ran things on earth for El as his vizier. That god’s name was Baal, a name quite familiar to anyone who has read the Old Testament. At Ugarit Baal was known by several titles: “king of the gods,” “the Most High,” “Prince Baal” (baal zbl), and—most importantly for our discussion—“the Rider on the Clouds.”

Baal’s position as “king of the gods” in Ugarit, Israel’s northern neighbor, helps explain the “Baal problem” in the Old Testament. Jereboam’s religion in the northern kingdom borrowed from Baal worship, and it soon began to look like there was no difference, or if there was a difference, they were so close that worshipping one or the other was just theological hair-splitting. This is what prophets like Elijah had to contend with. The people had no Bible. They had only the prophets and their words. When a prophet wasn’t around to set the record straight, it was easy to just do what the neighbors were doing—especially if your king didn’t care, or actually preferred it that way.

Given this state of affairs, it's not surprising that sometimes in the course of their preaching and writing, the prophets counted on familiarity with Baal to make their case that it was Yahweh, not Baal, who was the heavenly king. We know this was the case, since certain Old Testament books actually quote from the Ugaritic religious texts, most notably the one that modern scholars have called the Baal Cycle. Whereas the Baal Cycle would give Baal credit for things like sending rain and making the crops grow, the prophets would credit those things to Yahweh. The showdown at Carmel (geographically close to Ugarit) is a case in point. God had withheld rain and Elijah challenged the rain giver to a duel, which God won in glorious fashion (1 Kings 17-18)."What's Ugaritic Got to Do with Anything?

Scroll down to
THE MYTH/CULT OF UGARIT AND PARALLELS IN THE OLD TESTAMENT TEXTS at Baalism in Canaanite Religion and Its Relation to Selected Old Testament Texts

The God of the Patriarchs and the Ugaritic Texts: A
Shared Religious and Cultural Identity
https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1116&context=studiaantiqua

Cosmogonies in the Ugaritic Texts and in the Bible
Richard J. Clifford
Orientalia
NOVA SERIES, Vol. 53, No. 2, MEMORIAL MITCHELL J. DAHOOD (February 2, 1922 – March 8, 1982) (1984), pp. 183-201

 

[Barney2.0]

I never said Christians deify the sun; I said people were deifying hundreds of years before the Redeemer came as a Son of Man - specifically on December 25 (more or less), distorting astronomy into astrology and associating this astronomical event with a deity. Why even associate with a pagan celebration in the first place? It isn't our job to change dark to light. Out of all of the holy days that the Word of God Himself, and the Most High God listed (ones we blithely ignore), where did the Word of God ever say to celebrate His birthday?

When did He ever tell us, or His disciples His birth day? Mithraism celebrated their sun god born of a virgin on the 25th of December since 1400bc (on record). Christians often have to apologize for this...issue, because the Church has been lazy in their disdain for paganism and idolatry. But His birth isn't the important part; we have know He would be born since Adam. But, this hijacking of prophecy has been happening since the beginning (which is why the "oldest record" issue is comical when terming what is oldest ever).

There is also nothing Hebrew, or Christian about decking a pyramidal wintergreen for the purposes of celebrating the Redeemer. There is nothing about putting a star (Sol) at the top, or giving gifts related to the birth of Christ; the Wise/Magi brought gifts to the Redeemer after he was already born and breathing for a while. The connections are distorted, because they were a combination of pagan and Christian ideas. Instead of completely rending Rome through religious upheaval, it was better to combine the holidays of all cultures and celebrate days together - as a nation.


As someone in this thread has already said, the focus of Christmas isn't about the resurrection - it is about the birth of Christ. Is it the culture of the Hebrews to celebrate their birthdays? And, the holy day is completely commercialized and full of idolatry for a reason; Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits, Pentecost, Trumpets, Atonement, and/or Sukkot are not commercialized for a reason. All of the holy days the Most High listed for us are in the spring, or fall. None are in the winter. The activities of Christ happen in the spring (Sacrifice and Resurrection) and fall (Judgement and the Wedding); not the winter.

Bring authentic documents that show Mithras and Sol Invictus were worshipped on December 25 to prove your point of the pagan origins of Christmas theory.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I was doing a translation of the 7 churches in Revelation and the Church of Smyrna fascinated me because of the scriptural meaning of it.

Myrrh is one of the things the "wise-men" brought to infant Jesus.

Revelation chapter 2 - 1st four Churches
The Assembly of Smyrna

The word "myrrh" is only used in 2 verses of the NT.
At the birth of Jesus and at His burial

Matthew 2:11
and having come to the house, they found the Child with Mary His mother, and having fallen down they bowed to Him,
and having opened their treasures, they presented to Him gifts, gold, and frankincense, and myrrh,
John 39
18 and Nicodemus also came -- who came unto Jesus by night at the first --
bearing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, as it were, a hundred pounds.
19 They took, therefore, the body of Jesus, and bound it with linen clothes with the spices, according as it was the custom of the Jews to prepare for burial;

Here is an interesting commentary on it:

Smyrna means “sweet smelling” and comes from the root word for myrrh.

The myrrh plant is found throughout the Middle East and was used in the manufacture of an aromatic ointment. When bruised and crushed, the myrrh gives forth a lovely fragrance.
Myrrh was used to embalm the bodies of the dead. Carefully the linens were prepared, and wound around the bodies of the loved ones, while myrrh was packed between the folds of the cloth. Thus was the body of our Lord embalmed!

After the death of Jesus, the women, who had loved and followed Him on earth, brought one hundred pounds of myrrh and aloes to the tomb. With what grief did they take that precious body and wind about it the linen cloths! With what untold tenderness did they lay it away in the bed of fragrant spices!
Thus myrrh is a type of suffering and death, and some in the church at Smyrna were to pass through bitter persecution, severe trials, and intense testings, as a picture of that which all of God’s called and chosen elect must also pass through. Their sufferings, however, instead of destroying them, would give forth the rich perfume of heaven, the life of the spirit!

Oh, Frankincense and Gold are also mentioned in Revelation concerning 1st century Jerusalem

Matthew 2:11
and having come to the house, they found the Child with Mary His mother, and having fallen down they bowed to Him,
and having opened their treasures, they presented to Him gifts, gold, and frankincense, and myrrh,

Luke 21:
5 and of some saying concerning the Temple, that to goodly stones and votive-offerings<334> it has been adorned<2885>
6 “These which ye are beholding.
Shall be coming days in which not shall be being left stone upon stone here which not shall be being thrown-down<2647>

Revelation 18:
12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
13 And cinnamon, and incense, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

1 Chronocles 9:29
Some of them also were appointed to oversee the vessels, and all the instruments of the Sanctuary, and the fine flour, and the wine, and the oil, and the frankincense, and the spices.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

EGADS!!!!!
Do y'all think you could perhaps wrap some of your larger posts in quotes. Especially with large fonts..We can then click "expand" for it...thanks

EDIT TO ADD:
OR PUT THE LINK UP, THEN THOSE WHO ARE INTERESTED IN THAT STUFF CAN READ IT THERE........

I put the quote in "" marks and bolded the relevant parts. I am having problems seeing today.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I was hoping to get to that myself.

Those "Wise" men came after the Redeemer was already breathing and alive. That could have been three months later - in the winter. We know it had to be at least 40 days after Mary was pregnant because of purification reasons.

When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy.

And going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, s gold and t frankincense and u myrrh Matthew. 2:10-11
​

If the Redeemer was born sometime in September-October - during the week of Sukkot - then that means November-December of that year would be the earliest the wise men would be able to come to the house and see the Redeemer.

Now, since this was all from the foundations of the earth (and, if you believe stars are stars of orbit/space theory - not luminaries - then this "star" was set to give off its light at the exact time of the advent. That isn't too hard to imagine; just figure out when you want it to shine, and put it far enough away.

The Most High God uses people from other religions and cultures other than the Hebrews to recognize the revelations and gifts of the Most High God in order to highlight the importance - especially since the Hebrews had a history of non-belief/no faith. They didn't recognize the Redeemer when He walked with them. The Most High God did this at Exodus, with David and Bathsheeba, and a few other times in the canon.


What I believe is the Magi truly believed this was the personification of the Unconquered Sun, and went to worship. Gold is the biggest clue to this, because throughout history gold has been the gift humans give to the gods (which they accept, and sometimes demand). The joke is that they were the first ones - not devout/"Super Hebrews" - that even payed attention to the signs in the sky, and investigated prophecy that was permeated throughout Hebrew culture. The star was also important to the Magi for other astrological reasons, but it led them to the Redeemer whom (as educated academics in astronomy and astrology) may have even understood if this wasn't Sol, that it was "someone's god".

​

I take a different position on the Magi or the wisemen.

You may find this article interesting:

Were the Wise Men Astrologists?

May God bless you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Is it ok that I take the day of when im given it, or should I demand to work that day because Im christian and shouldn't celebrate the day?

I am sure one day there will be a law to take the Mark, that does not mean we should take it because it is some law. We ought to obey God rather than men.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Bring authentic documents that show Mithras and Sol Invictus was worshipped on December 25 to prove your point of the pagan origins of Christmas theory.

Propaganda does not use scholarly sources.

"A main concern is, not what the practice meant hundreds of years ago, but how it is viewed today in your area. (Awake! 2003 Sep 22 p.24)

"However, if one’s motive in putting up a wind chime has nothing to do with false religion, superstition or demonism, and there is little possibility of others’ getting the wrong impression regarding its use in the home, it is a simple matter for personal decision." (Watchtower 1981 Jun 1 p.31)

Watchtower 1981 Jun 1 p.31 Questions From Readers
"● Would it be wrong for a Christian to use wind chimes in his or her home?
Many persons have used wind chimes to give a pleasant musical aspect to the home. When the wind blows, the glass, metal or wooden pieces hit against one another to produce the sound. However, it is the custom in some countries to put up wind chimes with the thought that they will keep evil spirits from entering the home. Obviously, a Christian would not make use of wind chimes for such a purpose. So if there is such a superstitious belief in one’s country, or community, it would not be wise to have a wind chime in the home. Thus no one will be stumbled or given the impression that Jehovah’s Witnesses make use of wind chimes for some unscriptural purpose.—1 Cor. 10:31-33.
However, if one’s motive in putting up a wind chime has nothing to do with false religion, superstition or demonism, and there is little possibility of others’ getting the wrong impression regarding its use in the home, it is a simple matter for personal decision."

Watchtower Quotes Regarding Pagan Practices

 

[Kerensa]

All Christians should not murder. Is that legalism, too?

No, it's a non sequitur. In what way, precisely, is celebrating Christmas comparable to murder?

You still haven't answered this one, Jason.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

"
For support of this distortion, they turned to the so-called "expertise" of a known spirit-medium. His name was Johannes Greber. He was a defrocked Catholic Priest who received his so-called "translation" of the bible through spiritistic means, usually in trances. The Watchtower Society exposed him in the February 15th, l956 Watchtower, warning that his sources were demonic. We couldn't agree with them more!

However, in 1961, just five years later, they were singing his praises and quoting him as an authority for their New World Translation, since he was a supporter of their doctrine on the person of Jesus Christ, and all three sources, Greber, the demons, and the Watchtower Society all agreed that Jesus was merely "a god"."JW Pagan Roots

You would think that a Bible Translation that agrees with a Spiritualist Translation of the Bible would be rejected. Esp, since there are many translations that contradicts the Spiritualist translation of the New Testament.

 

[RaymondG]

I am sure one day there will be a law to take the Mark, that does not mean we should take it because it is some law. We ought to obey God rather than men.

I have no problems with this....will save me a lot of money. All the family getting this year is frankincense and myrrh.....If they ask why...I'll direct them to this thread and ask them "why should you get more than the Lord?"

Thanks

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Find me scripture that says we should only depend on scripture?

Where have I written that we should only depend on scripture alone? Scripture however trumps the words of men.

ROMANS 3:4 4, God forbid: yes, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That you might be justified in your sayings, and might overcome when you are judged.

MATTHEW 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

2 TIMOTHY 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

ACTS 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

MATTHEW 15:3-9
[3], But he answered and said to them, Why do you also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
[4], For God commanded, saying, Honor your father and mother: and, He that curses father or mother, let him die the death.
[5], But you say, Whoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatever you might be profited by me;
[6], And honor not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have you made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
[7], You hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
[8], This people draws near to me with their mouth, and honors me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
[9], But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Yep looks like the Word of God trumps the words of men.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You missed the point of my post which was to correct your false claim about Constantine.

There was not false claims about Constantine. I posted a historical quote. You disagreed with it.

 

[Kaon]

Bring authentic documents that show Mithras and Sol Invictus was worshipped on December 25 to prove your point of the pagan origins of Christmas theory.

ISBN-13: 978-0192854483 - Stations Of The Sun: A History of the Ritual Year in Britain

ISBN-13: 978-1594770272 - The Mysteries of Mithras: The Pagan Belief That Shaped the Christian World

Edit: Mysteries of the Mithras has plenty of footnotes to trace the sources.