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That's because it's not, and it's nonsense.They don’t care that their star (sun) decoration on top of their Christ-mass tree is a parallel. They don’t care that the lights on their idol tree are like little glowing stars or suns.
No true. You are the one who is incorrect. Just read again Exodus 20 on the graven image, which is an idol. The first part of the instruction is not to even make the idol. Then it says to not to bow down to it. It is a two part instruction. So if you have a giant 10 foot tall statue of Mary in your living room, you are violating the command in regards to idolatry.That's because it's not, and it's nonsense.
A tree is not an idol, unless you pray to, or bow down and worship it.
You have been told this - you clearly don't care.
Did you look at the biblical examples before you hit the reply button?A deception is not always a lie?
But when people dress up in a costume to pretend to be father Christmas, that is different?
The lie would be, "no, there really IS a father Christmas who flies through the air with a sleigh load of presents, being pulled by his flying reindeer, stopping at every single house, going down all their chimneys, eating all the mince pies, drinking ALL the sherry that is left out for him, leaving presents for the whole household and managing to get around the whole country in one night. I am just helping him out a little."
Well, I did not get any reference from the JW site. I later referenced the Encyclopedia and the Britannica.That's what JWs say: Herod and Pharaoh, who were bad people, did bad things on their birthdays - therefore it is wrong for anyone, anywhere to remember the day on which they were born. Which is completely illogical.
So by NOT celebrating a birthday of Christmas you are emulating a Christian cult.
That's because it's not, and it's nonsense.
A tree is not an idol, unless you pray to, or bow down and worship it.
You have been told this - you clearly don't care.
I did not say they worship trees. They have idol trees. There is a difference. Also, while there are other ornaments that one can put on top of the tree, the most popular is the star. Then you have lights and then you have other ornaments that many times are ball shaped. Again, this is like the sun. Parallels do not have to be exact in order for it to be a parallel. So you have the star on top, the lights that look like shining stars, and ball ornaments (which is the most popular) all which relate in some way to the sun. Then you put gifts below the idol tree, which is what we read about involving those who were into idolatry. They present gifts or sacrifices to their idols. So one is mimicking what idolaters did in the past even though they are not worshiping the tree or the sun like objects on their tree. I believe it is a violation of the fist part of the command not to have idols as given to us in Exodus 20, Genesis 35, and Joshua 24.Not everyone does that - some put a fairy on top.
I would think no one thinks of them as little suns except you, who is trying to make a connection to the sun god.
(News Flash; the IS no sun god.)
Lights on a Christmas tree may be blue, green, red, orange, multicoloured - how many suns have you seen like that?
Some people don't even know that on December 25th we remember the birth of the Son of God - they are not going to know, or care, about the "birth" of some mythical Roman god.
a) Some do.
b) A tree is only an idol if you worship it.
People of other religions gave sacrifices to idols - yes. They still do.
So?
No one is.
Pagan gods, like those mentioned in the OT, did not "demand" nice little gifts, wrapped up in paper - but the sacrifices of live human babies and children. Pagan gods "demanded" people show love through sex - which is why there were many temple prostitutes.
No one imitates them. The Israelites did; not any more.
It makes no sense that you think that we, your fellow Christians, worship trees, adopt pagan influences and, when we try to explain and correct you, dismiss the arguments with "well you will have to answer to God."
We don't "see" what you're saying, because it's nonsense.
A fir tree which is cut down is not a graven image.No true. You are the one who is incorrect. Just read again Exodus 20 on the graven image, which is an idol.
No Christian does.The first part of the instruction is not to even make the idol.
I don't know about you but I don't bow down to my tree - which is plastic, in any case.Then it says to not to bow down to it.
I don't.So if you have a giant 10 foot tall statue of Mary in your living room, you are violating the command in regards to idolatry.
Well, I did not get any reference from the JW site. I later referenced the Encyclopedia and the Britannica.
So an 8 foot Christmas tree is a mini idol or figurine, is it?Notice verse 4. It says they gave their strange gods that were in their hand to Jacob. This is obviously mini idol statues or figurines. Also, see Joshua 24:23. Putting away their strange gods (idols) was about choosing to serve the Lord.
No, an idol is an object of worship - something which takes the worship which is due to God.I did not say they worship trees. They have idol trees. There is a difference.
Doesn't mean anything.Also, while there are other ornaments that one can put on top of the tree, the most popular is the star.
Doesn't mean anything.Then you have lights and then you have other ornaments that many times are ball shaped. Again, this is like the sun.
Nope.Then you put gifts below the idol tree, which is what we read about involving those who were into idolatry.
Not unless the gift is a ton of manure which is given TO the tree.They present gifts or sacrifices to their idols.
Nope.So one is mimicking what idolaters did in the past even though they are not worshiping the tree or the sun like objects on their tree.
You can believe, and practice, what you like.I believe it is a violation of the fist part of the command not to have idols as given to us in Exodus 20, Genesis 35, and Joshua 24.
Show me one, just one, Biblical reference which shows any culture anywhere which worshipped a decorated tree? The Jeremiah reference is one continuous narrative why are you deliberately omitting the second part of the command?I did not say they worship trees. They have idol trees. There is a difference. Also, while there are other ornaments that one can put on top of the tree, the most popular is the star. Then you have lights and then you have other ornaments that many times are ball shaped. Again, this is like the sun. Parallels do not have to be exact in order for it to be a parallel. So you have the star on top, the lights that look like shining stars, and ball ornaments (which is the most popular) all which relate in some way to the sun. Then you put gifts below the idol tree, which is what we read about involving those who were into idolatry. They present gifts or sacrifices to their idols. So one is mimicking what idolaters did in the past even though they are not worshiping the tree or the sun like objects on their tree. I believe it is a violation of the fist part of the command not to have idols as given to us in Exodus 20, Genesis 35, and Joshua 24.
The King James Bible says differently.Apart from any of the other nonsense on this thread, Jeremiah 10:3 says "a craftsman shapes it with a chisel".
Hands up anyone here who buys a real Christmas tree and then takes it to a craftsman to be shaped?
If the OP can't show that anyone does that, then this verse from Jeremiah does not apply.
Complete non response to what I posted.Scripture does not record the angels or the wisemen continuing to worship Jesus as a baby when He was an adult on December 25th. There are no Christ-mass instructions given to us by either Jesus or the apostle Paul. You would think if it was important, there would be Scripture telling us about how we should cut down a tree and decorate it with silver and gold (Which sounds like Jeremiah 10), and to give each other gifts around this idol tree, and to have a Yule log, etcetera.
You are prime evidence of that.People see what they want to see.
Not true, but when you claim something about a source you need to show it from the source. It may be true that the quote did come from an earlier edition but it is outdated scholarship in any case. I've found the Catholic Encyclopedia to be a good source of information about the Catholic Church, but not particularly reliable on other topics.I am sure if I even showed a screen cap of the actual encyclopedia if I ever get a copy, it would not convince you.
I didn't say you did. Anything that comes from there is immediately suspect, which should at least make you question the reliability of the sources you chose.No, I did not get it from that source.
All their sources are secondary. There are no primary sources tying December 25 to the 'birthday' of MithrasBut here is another source that says it differently.
Encyclopedia.com states:
“…while the traditional date of Christmas, first attested in the fourth century, is hardly unrelated to the fact that December 25 was celebrated as the birthday of Sol Invictus Mithra."
Source:
Sol Invictus | Encyclopedia.com
SOL INVICTUS SOL INVICTUS . Worship of the sun god, Sol, was known in republican Rome, but it was of minor importance. In imperial Rome, however, in the third century ce (the last century of pagan Rome), the cult of the sun god became a major and, at times, dominant force in Roman religion...www.encyclopedia.com
I've already pointed out that this was the day Emperor Aurelias dedicated the Temple of Sol Invictus in the year 274. There was no annual worship done on that day. You can find many buildings with a plaque commemorating the date in which a building cornerstone was laid or a bridge was opened but nobody gathers every year on that day to commemorate the inauguration of that building or bridge. The Oxford article is remiss in leaving off the year it was dedicated.This is date of celebration of the worship, Sōl Invictus on December 25th can be seen here by Oxford.
"Its dedication day was 25 December."
Trees could be made into idols. But it says not to even cut a tree and decorate it, speaking of tree worship even during that time period. Deuteronomy 16:21 talks about not planting a tree near the alter of God. Then it talks about idol images in verse 22 (Deuteronomy 16:22).Show me one, just one, Biblical reference which shows any culture anywhere which worshipped a decorated tree? The Jeremiah reference is one continuous narrative why are you deliberately omitting the second part of the command?
In Jeremiah not only is the tree cut down and has silver and gold placed on it but ALSO Silver and gold is beaten into plates and placed on it, also purple and blue clothing is placed on it.
Jeremiah 10:3-5
(3) For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
(4) They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
(5) They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.
Jeremiah 10:9
(9) Silver spread into plates is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz, the work of the workman, and of the hands of the founder: blue and purple is their clothing: they are all the work of cunning men.Trees don't wear clothing. Statues do. There is a parallel passage in Isaiah.
Isaiah 40:18-19
(18) To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?
(19) The workman melteth a graven image, and the goldsmith spreadeth it over with gold, and casteth silver chains.
December 25th is not the date of the Winter solstice and there are no historical references to devotees of Mithras celebrating on December 25th prior to Christians celebrating the birth of Christ.
No, you are reading into it what you want to see. A temple was dedicated on one day, which happened to be December 25, 274AD. There was no annual worship on that day.No. You’re not reading it. Look, they worshiped a sun god on December 25th. That is what it is saying.
Total nonsense. A burlap ribbon looks nothing like blue and purple clothing. You persist in ignoring the bottom half of your quote. Desperately trying to make it say what you want it to. Sheets of silver and gold and blue and purple clothing. You are real good at ignoring scripture which destroys your narrative. You can't have one without the other. It is totally dishonest to repeatedly quote Jeremiah 10:3-4 and omit vs. 9. Decorated trees don't wear clothing. And you continue to ignore God's commandment in Exod 20Trees could be made into idols. But it says not to even cut a tree and decorate it, speaking of tree worship even during that time period. Deuteronomy 16:21 talks about not planting a tree near the alter of God. Then it talks about idol images in verse 22 (Deuteronomy 16:22).
I also the really large Christmas trees that have burlap garland sort of looks like clothing, like a dress being strung around the tree.
Which is what Jeremiah 10 is referring to.Trees could be made into idols.
Nope, it describes carving an idol, cladding it in gold and silver, then putting robes on it. It most definitely does not describe "tree worship"But it says not to even cut a tree and decorate it, speaking of tree worship even during that time period.
No one is planting a tree near the altar of God, but perhaps you understand this as a general prohibition of planting trees in general, given your belief that if people see a tree with a bit of tinsel on it they immediately bow down and worship it.Deuteronomy 16:21 talks about not planting a tree near the alter of God. Then it talks about idol images in verse 22 (Deuteronomy 16:22).
The more you continue arguing, the more unhinged your argument becomes. Yeah, it "sort of looks like clothing", if you are wearing a blindfold and have a vivid imagination.I also the really large Christmas trees that have burlap garland sort of looks like clothing, like a dress being strung around the tree.
I never expected you to draw attention to one of the deficiencies of the KJV.The King James Bible says differently.
It says:
Jeremiah 10:3 KJV
“For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.”
That still doesn't make a tree an idol. Thousands of us have artificial trees, that weren't cut down from the forest with an axe.The King James Bible says differently.
It says:
Jeremiah 10:3 KJV
“For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.”
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