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Why I refuse to vote for BHO

Touma

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Why I Refuse to Vote for Barack Obama - Conor Friedersdorf - The Atlantic


Tell certain liberals and progressives that you can't bring yourself to vote for a candidate who opposes gay rights, or who doesn't believe in Darwinian evolution, and they'll nod along. Say that you'd never vote for a politician caught using the 'n'-word, even if you agreed with him on more policy issues than his opponent, and the vast majority of left-leaning Americans would understand. But these same people cannot conceive of how anyone can discern Mitt Romney's flaws, which I've chronicled in the course of the campaign, and still not vote for Obama.

Don't they see that Obama's transgressions are worse than any I've mentioned?

I don't see how anyone who confronts Obama's record with clear eyes can enthusiastically support him. I do understand how they might concluded that he is the lesser of two evils, and back him reluctantly, but I'd have thought more people on the left would regard a sustained assault on civil liberties and the ongoing, needless killing of innocent kids as deal-breakers.


I find Obama likable when I see him on TV. He is a caring husband and father, a thoughtful speaker, and possessed of an inspirational biography. On stage, as he smiles into the camera, using words to evoke some of the best sentiments within us, it's hard to believe certain facts about him.


1.Obama terrorizes innocent Pakistanis on an almost daily basis. The drone war he is waging in North Waziristan isn't "precise" or "surgical" as he would have Americans believe. It kills hundreds of innocents, including children. And for thousands of more innocents who live in the targeted communities, the drone war makes their lives into a nightmare worthy of dystopian novels. People are always afraid. Women cower in their homes. Children are kept out of school. The stress they endure gives them psychiatric disorders. Men are driven crazy by an inability to sleep as drones buzz overhead 24 hours a day, a deadly strike possible at any moment. At worst, this policy creates more terrorists than it kills; at best, America is ruining the lives of thousands of innocent people and killing hundreds of innocents for a small increase in safety from terrorists. It is a cowardly, immoral, and illegal policy, deliberately cloaked in opportunistic secrecy. And Democrats who believe that it is the most moral of all responsible policy alternatives are as misinformed and blinded by partisanship as any conservative ideologue.

2. Obama established one of the most reckless precedents imaginable: that any president can secretly order and oversee the extrajudicial killing of American citizens. Obama's kill list transgresses against the Constitution as egregiously as anything George W. Bush ever did. It is as radical an invocation of executive power as anything Dick Cheney championed. The fact that the Democrats rebelled against those men before enthusiastically supporting Obama is hackery every bit as blatant and shameful as anything any talk radio host has done.

3. Contrary to his own previously stated understanding of what the Constitution and the War Powers Resolution demand, President Obama committed U.S. forces to war in Libya without Congressional approval, despite the lack of anything like an imminent threat to national security.


This article goes on to endorse Gary Johnson. I won't be voting for GJ, because of him being more a libertarian. I think I might vote in James K. Polk, zombie president. Invading Mexico and threatening to invade and annex Canada up to Alaska just speaks to my demographic. ;-)


But seriously, any other liberals feel that way? You know you don't like Romney, and you like Obama personally, but you just can't stomach up the vote for him....
 

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The continuation of American militraism is one of the most dissappointing things for me about the Obama presidency. On one hand there are practical considerabtion and a great deal of inertia to resist but I do feel he could have done more.

I think the action in Libya was the right thing to do though the political outcomes are uncertain. In respect to a military action it went as perfectly as could be expected.

I think Romney would be significantly worse as a president for this sort of action. From a CEO focus, war can be very good for business.

It's important that people bring up these issues for discussion but as for how they actually cast their vote, I keep coming back to the Chris Rock quote:
If you vote against Obama because he can't get stuff done, it's like saying, "this guy can't cure cancer. I'm gonna vote for cancer."
 
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jgarden

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Why I Refuse to Vote for Barack Obama - Conor Friedersdorf - The Atlantic

This article goes on to endorse Gary Johnson. I won't be voting for GJ, because of him being more a libertarian. I think I might vote in James K. Polk, zombie president. Invading Mexico and threatening to invade and annex Canada up to Alaska just speaks to my demographic. ;-)


But seriously, any other liberals feel that way? You know you don't like Romney, and you like Obama personally, but you just can't stomach up the vote for him....

Terrorizing innocent Pakistanis, extrajudicial killing of American citizens and committing U.S. forces to war in Libya without Congressional approval pales in comparison to the Bush Administration's committing America to a decade of war in Iraq based on the existance of those illusive WMD.

The reality is that unless Romney or Obama achieve the unlikely prospect of winning majorities in both the House and Senate, both are doomed to 4 more years of political deadlock.

The situation is further complicated by the turmoil in the Europen Union which have a direct impact on the American economy but in which the president is largely relegated to spectator status.
 
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stamperben

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But seriously, any other liberals feel that way? You know you don't like Romney, and you like Obama personally, but you just can't stomach up the vote for him....
What I know is that Romney would be much more damaging to the country than Obama. So I see him as the lessor of two evils. And being here in Texas where the EC votes are going to Romney no matter how I vote, I have toyed with the idea of going Green or Socialist. But I also see that in the near future, perhaps by as early as 2020 Texas will become a blue state again, so I will add my vote to the Dem Presidential ticket this year and beef up the numbers of votes cast Democrat in hopes that in the future that will swing others to go that way too.

I also know that the real votes that matter are the downballot races, and that the hope of putting in progressive congress members lies not with the GOP but with the Democratic party, both nationally and locally. The 70 members of the Congressional Progressive Caucus is a start, but it is not enough yet, we need more.

I hold no illusions on how Washington works. It is run by the corporate interests who have the money to gain the access to the inner circles of power. In my mind there HAS to be a viable third party (or maybe it will be a fourth or fifth party), but that time is not now. I am very interested in what will happen with the GOP in a Romney loss, will it split and what ramifications will that have on the Dems? But that is after this election, not before it.
 
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Desk trauma

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Terrorizing innocent Pakistanis, extrajudicial killing of American citizens and committing U.S. forces to war in Libya without Congressional approval pales in comparison to the Bush Administration's committing America to a decade of war in Iraq based on the existance of those illusive WMD.

Correction, Bush only oversaw Afghanistan until he left office Jan 20 2008 every thing after that is Obamas baby. He could have had the troops start packing Jan 21 but he did not, he sent in more and kept us involved.

Obama turned out to be Bush lite, I did not support the original and I do not the watered down version.
 
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abdAlSalam

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Correction, Bush only oversaw Afghanistan until he left office Jan 20 2009 every thing after that is Obamas baby. He could have had the troops start packing Jan 21 but he did not, he sent in more and kept us involved.
Fixed that for you. Nonetheless you are correct.
 
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Jeffwhosoever

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The reality is that unless Romney or Obama achieve the unlikely prospect of winning majorities in both the House and Senate, both are doomed to 4 more years of political deadlock.

And now you have one of my major reasons for voting for Mitt Romney. Obama isn't likely to get a majority in Congress, and Democrats could lose seats in the Senate, and yes, we would have 4 more years of deadlock.

We can't afford this. Obama has proven he can't work without a majority party in both Senate and the House. We have SERIOUS issues to deal with, and waiting four more years to address them will only magnify the problems. Kick the can down the road, for 4 more years!

It is time to give Mitt Romney the opportunity to lead. If he fails, we'll vote him out in 2016.
 
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whatbogsends

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Why I Refuse to Vote for Barack Obama - Conor Friedersdorf - The Atlantic

This article goes on to endorse Gary Johnson. I won't be voting for GJ, because of him being more a libertarian. I think I might vote in James K. Polk, zombie president. Invading Mexico and threatening to invade and annex Canada up to Alaska just speaks to my demographic. ;-)

But seriously, any other liberals feel that way? You know you don't like Romney, and you like Obama personally, but you just can't stomach up the vote for him....

I'm still on the fence. Despite his actions as president described in the article, i see him as the lesser of two evils.

The drone war being waged - yes, i disagree with it. It started before Obama, although admittedly, Obama has increased that activity significantly. From Romney's war mongering approach to middle eastern affairs (at least Obama sees that there are other options in Iran than war), i see absolutely no possibility of this changing under a Romney administration.

Likewise, with the killing of an American citizen without due process, habeas corpus died under the Bush administration. Indefinite detention, torture - extra-judicial killing just seemed like the inevitable conclusion with what was constructed under the guise of "the war on terror".

As far as the deployment of troops in Libya, this didn't strike me as much different than any of the actions of any presidents since Reagan. Perhaps there is more of a difference here than i currently understand.

I don't enthusiastically support Obama. I supported him moderately in 2008. At this point, i support not letting Romney becoming elected. Unfortunately, we've been stuck in a 2-party paradigm, in which both parties represent a continuation of many establishment policies i disagree with, as well as both parties being rife with corruption.
 
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Jeffwhosoever

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A very good summary from another member on here. It is located in the USSA thread at post 275, but is worth reading so I'll repeat it here:

Easy G (G²);61435834 said:
Mixture is indeed a good way of seeing it, as it seems nearly EVERY system has aspects of the other that end up impacting it/being hybridized during differing seasons of life. ...and with where we're at in this economy, it seems that the president has not so much changed the system of capitalism itself as much as he has guided it based on where it was already heading for years when it comes to state capitalism.....eventually going into corporate capitalism and at some point outright feudalism as well.

The feudalism aspect is why many don't see what President Obama is doing as advocating socialism in the extreme (or Marxism, for that matter, as Marx was against aspects of what the President is doing). Marx would have been for outright revolution rather than electoral process--and he was about seeking to aggressively make a classless society, as opposed to President Obama whose policies are not really making that a reality......and President Obama has supported capitalism on differing points unlike many revolutionaries who see things like redistribution as a means to ensure that no one has more than another person. Again, the president has never truly been advocating an economic system that's akin to Marxism or extreme Socialism in its ultimate form ( more shared here, here, here, here , here, here and here, here, and here).

As another noted best:
If we don’t get the analysis right, we won’t get the response right. Despite what some popular right-wing talk-show hosts claim, Obama is not pushing Marxism, revolutionary or otherwise. The threat is not from socialism in the sense of State ownership of the means of production, much less a proletarian uprising. Rather, he’s pushing good old American progressive-corporate elitism, or corporatism....

Fox News' Bill Sammon Admits Obama Socialism Link Was a Lie - YouTube


Ron Paul Says Barack Obama is "Not a Socialist" - Calls Him "Corporatist" Instead - YouTube
As Ron Paul said best:
Socialism is a system where the government directly owns and manages businesses. Corporatism is a system where businesses are nominally in private hands, but are in fact controlled by the government. In a corporatist state, government officials often act in collusion with their favored business interests to design polices that give those interests a monopoly position, to the detriment of both competitors and consumers.

A careful examination of the policies pursued by the Obama administration and his allies in Congress shows that their agenda is corporatist. For example, the health care bill that recently passed does not establish a Canadian-style government-run single payer health care system. Instead, it relies on mandates forcing every American to purchase private health insurance or pay a fine. It also includes subsidies for low-income Americans and government-run health care “exchanges”. Contrary to the claims of the proponents of the health care bill, large insurance and pharmaceutical companies were enthusiastic supporters of many provisions of this legislation because they knew in the end their bottom lines would be enriched by Obamacare.

Similarly, Obama's “cap-and-trade” legislation provides subsidies and specials privileges to large businesses that engage in “carbon trading.” This is why large corporations, such as General Electric support cap-and-trade.

To call the President a corporatist is not to soft-pedal criticism of his administration. It is merely a more accurate description of the President’s agenda.

When he is a called a socialist, the President and his defenders can easily deflect that charge by pointing out that the historical meaning of socialism is government ownership of industry; under the President’s policies, industry remains in nominally private hands. Using the more accurate term – corporatism - forces the President to defend his policies that increase government control of private industries and expand de facto subsidies to big businesses. This also promotes the understanding that though the current system may not be pure socialism, neither is it free-market since government controls the private sector through taxes, regulations, and subsidies, and has done so for decades.

Using precise terms can prevent future statists from successfully blaming the inevitable failure of their programs on the remnants of the free market that are still allowed to exist.
In many ways (regardless of intentions/giving benefit of the doubt that the President truly thinks he's helping others), his view of an economic order is one in which the ruling class of politicians direct resources for their chosen ends, often benefitting politically-connected corporations at the expense of everyone else. In North Carolina, we see a healthy dose of corporatism being implemented by our state rulers....and the same goes for campaigns of differing kinds.

In example, Duke Energy CEO, Jim Rogers, from Charlotte, has donated about $30,000to the Obama campaign and even more (around $55,000) to the Democratic National Committee over the past few years. His company extended a $10 million line of credit for the vastly underfunded and poorly attended Charlotte convention. He even appeared on CNN touting the President’s energy policies. In return, he got taxpayer money to the tune of $230.4 million and hundreds of thousands more in grant money to fund various projects including the development of the unsuccessful Chevrolet Volt. Currently, the News and Observer announced that Duke Energy has graciously donated two new charging stations for electric cars in the town of Cary. According to the columnist, these stations are “free"....but in reality, people who cannot afford expensive electric vehicles are being forced to subsidize power for those who can.

Again, as it stands, there are many who've noted that President Obama is nowhere close to be an extreme socialist or anything remotely related to a die-hard Marxist as much as he is about corporatism..even though he may have tendencies in methods used by people in those systems for the goals he's advocating. For a good review, one can investigate the article entitled President Obama's Marxist-Leninist Economics: Fact And Fiction ...as well as Marxist Lies - Politics Decoded.

To be clear, although I have things the president upsets me on, I think it's off whenever things are given to him/ascribed to his economic views that are not really his. He has indeed done A LOT of good things (much of it under the radar and not publicized often because it's not as sensational, more here, here, here, , etc).

In many ways (and this may be a bit radical for many)---I'm thankful for the president in many of the things he has accomplished when it comes to forcing believers to be more radical. He has caused many to really consider what role the government should play in the lives of others....and many of his actions have breathed new life into grass-roots organizations and people seeking to be creative more than ever before to live in the times we are in....as necessity is the mother of invention.

Many have been pushed to truly know what it means to live by faith and not by comfort, whereas others already doing that have been even more strengthened. A lot of my friends often joke on how many communities hearing of "recession" laugh since many of them experienced that for a long time---and are seeing how many who didn't experience it/often ignored it are now complaining that "we're in horrible times now!!!!" rather than learning from others who learned how to deal with it. Many who note "There are no jobs!!!" have been told by others that there are jobs out there if looking for them....except the jobs available may not have the same image of respect that many are used to.....like someone who used to work in a firm getting fired and not wanting to work as a garbage man because he takes too much pride in his image/feels that's "beneath" him even while others continue to work in such positions and feel great pride.


During this term, I've noticed that many are remembering what it means to live with limited options. President. Obama is accused of trying to expand the reach of government — into health care, financial regulation, the auto industry and so on. Indeed, it’s fair to question whether the federal government should have expanded powers...and what President Obama has done is get people in the U.S to question the role of government in how big it should be. America, to its credit, has debated this since its birth. The issue, however, that needs to be remembered is that government should never try to get involved to create "equality"---but instead, it should develop equity.

As another said best:

What we need is not to strive for a perfect social justice — which never existed and never will — but for social harmony. Harmony in music is, by its nature, exhilarating and soothing. In an orchestra, the different players and instruments perform together, in support of an overall melody.


Today, our democracy, a miraculous gathering of diverse players, desperately needs such unity.
 
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jgarden

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And now you have one of my major reasons for voting for Mitt Romney. Obama isn't likely to get a majority in Congress, and Democrats could lose seats in the Senate, and yes, we would have 4 more years of deadlock.

We can't afford this. Obama has proven he can't work without a majority party in both Senate and the House. We have SERIOUS issues to deal with, and waiting four more years to address them will only magnify the problems. Kick the can down the road, for 4 more years!

It is time to give Mitt Romney the opportunity to lead. If he fails, we'll vote him out in 2016.
History has shown that few presidents enjoy the luxury of having their party win majorities in both the House and the Senate.

GWB achieved that benefit for 6 of his 8 years - it was a failed opportunity that never translated into the promised economic prosperity that tax cuts were supposed to bring.

GWB inherited Clinton budget surpluses and left Obama with the largest recession since 1929, a federal debt/GDP ratio of 84.2% and 2 foreign wars.

In fact Reagan, GHW Bush and GW Bush are the major contributing to the federal debt/GDP ratio which reached its lowest point since WW2 of 32.5%, at the end of the Carter Adminstration.

When all is said and done, what is Mitt Romney, the governor and businessman bringing to the table that George Bush, the governor and businessman hasn't already tried?
 
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TerranceL

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Terrorizing innocent Pakistanis, extrajudicial killing of American citizens and committing U.S. forces to war in Libya without Congressional approval pales in comparison to the Bush Administration's committing America to a decade of war in Iraq based on the existance of those illusive WMD.

You mean the war that was so bad Obama promised to end it the moment he became president?

Who not only didn't end the war but chose to go by Bush withdrawl plan after the Iraq government refused to allow him to leave 10k soldiers in the country.

Murdering Pakistanis, murdering Americans, ignoring the war powers act, (which atleast bush had a vote on the iraq war, Obama acted as a dictator and did what he wanted to do) the horrible NDAA which would have seen american citizens being detains without due process... all that's TOTALLY OK.... but Darn that Bush!

As for murdering pakistanis.. here's the face of Obama's drone policy in Pakistan.

article20777530f42484e0.jpg


She's in houston currently getting care, I'm sure if you call you could tell her how a undeclared war against her people isn't nearly as bad as the Iraq war.

At what point are people going to realize that a vote for Obama is a vote for Bush's policies?
 
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TerranceL

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And lets not forget Gitmo is still open and operating.

The rendition program is still active, we are still sending people to other countries to be tortured.

I'm not asking you to vote for Romney, I sure as heck wont be, I'm asking you to vote your conscience.
 
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Rion

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:hi: This is one of the reasons I'm able to take you seriously, Touma. You actually stand by your principles. As I said in my own thread, Obama's policies are worse than Bush's in many ways, and I cannot fathom bashing Bush but praising Obama for the same actions. People are strange, eh? :)
 
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Jeffwhosoever

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You mean the war that was so bad Obama promised to end it the moment he became president?

Who not only didn't end the war but chose to go by Bush withdrawl plan after the Iraq government refused to allow him to leave 10k soldiers in the country.

Murdering Pakistanis, murdering Americans, ignoring the war powers act, (which atleast bush had a vote on the iraq war, Obama acted as a dictator and did what he wanted to do) the horrible NDAA which would have seen american citizens being detains without due process... all that's TOTALLY OK.... but Darn that Bush!

As for murdering pakistanis.. here's the face of Obama's drone policy in Pakistan.

article20777530f42484e0.jpg


She's in houston currently getting care, I'm sure if you call you could tell her how a undeclared war against her people isn't nearly as bad as the Iraq war.

At what point are people going to realize that a vote for Obama is a vote for Bush's policies?

Horrible. I feel so sorry for that child. And to think Obama got on TV an bragged that he was the one deciding who to kill with each Drone attack.
 
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Rion

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You mean the war that was so bad Obama promised to end it the moment he became president?

Who not only didn't end the war but chose to go by Bush withdrawl plan after the Iraq government refused to allow him to leave 10k soldiers in the country.

Murdering Pakistanis, murdering Americans, ignoring the war powers act, (which atleast bush had a vote on the iraq war, Obama acted as a dictator and did what he wanted to do) the horrible NDAA which would have seen american citizens being detains without due process... all that's TOTALLY OK.... but Darn that Bush!

As for murdering pakistanis.. here's the face of Obama's drone policy in Pakistan.



She's in houston currently getting care, I'm sure if you call you could tell her how a undeclared war against her people isn't nearly as bad as the Iraq war.

At what point are people going to realize that a vote for Obama is a vote for Bush's policies?[/QUOTE]

I actually find that kind of behavior more infuriating than the blue bloods' (what most call neocons). The blue bloods may try to excuse their casulties with the greater good trope, but these guys add an extra layer of utter hypocrisy to it. Just because the person doing the action is suddenly your own party doesn't justify it.
 
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Metal Minister

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abdAlSalam said:
If Barack Obama had an R next to his name, all "Progressives" would hate him and all "conservatives" would love him.

The worst part is you are 100% correct...and this would of course work the same way in reverse...smh
 
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