Why I love the 2nd Amendment......

[OldWiseGuy]

-- A2SG, but if you have some insight into how it isn't a legal right to get a driver's license, feel free to join in.....

Here I agree with you. The state calls it a privilege but it is a de facto right. So much so that even repeat drunk drivers are encouraged by the state to continue driving even after several revocations, as their vehicles aren't impounded for the duration of their revocation, which demonstrates sheer lunacy on the part of the state, and of course results in many deaths at the hands of these drunk drivers.

But that's yet another topic concerning the lunacy of the state. We should stick to the present gun control lunacy.

 

[Crusader05]

And, legally speaking, what's the difference?

-- A2SG, it was the legal definition in question, after all....

How firearm rights are different than owning a car.

1. Owning a firearm is a Constitutional right, there's nothing in the Constitution about owning a car. Rights shall not be denied to citizens except by due process of law.
2. I am licensed to operate a motor vehcile on public roadways. If I have a vehicle and keep it on private land I don't need a license, insurance or registration, but the instant I take it onto public roads I have to abide by their rules since they built the roads.
3. Many states require citizens with concealed wepons permits to attend training. Ohio, when I currently live, requires an 8 hour class.

 

[mzungu]

How firearm rights are different than owning a car.

1. Owning a firearm is a Constitutional right, there's nothing in the Constitution about owning a car. Rights shall not be denied to citizens except by due process of law.
2. I am licensed to operate a motor vehcile on public roadways. If I have a vehicle and keep it on private land I don't need a license, insurance or registration, but the instant I take it onto public roads I have to abide by their rules since they built the roads.
3. Many states require citizens with concealed wepons permits to attend training. Ohio, when I currently live, requires an 8 hour class.

 

[Crusader05]

Sen. Chuck Grassley made a statement at today's hearing on gun violence and made a great point on magainzine limitations; "We hear that no one needs to carry larger magazines than those that hunters use to shoot deer, But an attacking criminal, unlike a deer, shoots back.”
Post Politics

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Then why didn't that happen after 1994?

-- A2SG, let's try to keep the paranoia to a minimum, shall we?

Because Democrats lost control of Congress in part due to the 1993 Assault Weapons ban. That put an end to dumb gun control ideas until this past December.

 

[Loudmouth]

How firearm rights are different than owning a car.

1. Owning a firearm is a Constitutional right, there's nothing in the Constitution about owning a car. Rights shall not be denied to citizens except by due process of law.
2. I am licensed to operate a motor vehcile on public roadways. If I have a vehicle and keep it on private land I don't need a license, insurance or registration, but the instant I take it onto public roads I have to abide by their rules since they built the roads.
3. Many states require citizens with concealed wepons permits to attend training. Ohio, when I currently live, requires an 8 hour class.

Let's see what the courts have actually ruled:

In sum, the basic requirement to register a handgun is longstanding in American law, accepted for a century in diverse states and cities and now applicable to more than one fourth of the Nation by population. Therefore, we presume the District’s basic registration requirement, D.C. Code § 7-2502.01(a), including the submission of certain information, § 7-2502.03(b), does not impinge upon the right protected by the Second Amendment. Further, we find no basis in either the historical record or the record of this case to rebut that presumption. Indeed, basic registration requirements are self-evidently de minimis, for they are similar to other common registration or licensing schemes, such as those for voting or for driving a car, that cannot reasonably be considered onerous.
http://www.cadc.uscourts.gov/intern...C748525791F004D84F9/$file/10-7036-1333156.pdf
​

The courts have ruled that registration requirements are constitutional.

 

[Crusader05]

Let's see what the courts have actually ruled:

In sum, the basic requirement to register a handgun is longstanding in American law, accepted for a century in diverse states and cities and now applicable to more than one fourth of the Nation by population. Therefore, we presume the District’s basic registration requirement, D.C. Code § 7-2502.01(a), including the submission of certain information, § 7-2502.03(b), does not impinge upon the right protected by the Second Amendment. Further, we find no basis in either the historical record or the record of this case to rebut that presumption. Indeed, basic registration requirements are self-evidently de minimis, for they are similar to other common registration or licensing schemes, such as those for voting or for driving a car, that cannot reasonably be considered onerous.
http://www.cadc.uscourts.gov/intern...C748525791F004D84F9/$file/10-7036-1333156.pdf

​

The courts have ruled that registration requirements are constitutional.

I was making an argument that owning a firearm should not require or depend on someone taking a class. I'm not for registration but I recognize the court ruled it constitutional.

 

[A2SG]

Most people that buy guns know how to use them safely. There are very few gun accidents caused by lack of this knowledge. In fact many gun accidents are the result of horseplay, and children playing with unsecured guns. Also firearms training involves their effective use in self defense.

I know. But, as we've well established, "most" gun owners aren't the problem.

This a dilemna to some. There is always going to be guns, thus homocides by their use. Only total confiscation will solve the problem, and if you consider the impossibility of that you could spare yourself the angst.

I know that's impossible, which is why I was hoping for some real world, practical ideas.

-- A2SG, man, those are some loud crickets out there!

 

[A2SG]

Capital punishment has not been proven to not be a deterrent.

It also has not been proven to not be a pony. You can't prove a negative.

But to think that it isn't a deterrent is not realistic. That said even the prospect of eternal torment in hell won't deter some (recall the story of the turtle and the scorpion).

Right. So if threats of death and even hell aren't enough to curb gun violence...got any other ideas can we try?

Gary Gilmore requested a firing squad and was granted the request.

Good for him.

-- A2SG, say, is it true that one gunman in a firing squad is always given an empty gun, so that all of them can think they may not have been the one to actually kill the dude and spare themselves the guilt? I always wondered if that were true....

 

[Crusader05]

I know that's impossible, which is why I was hoping for some real world, practical ideas.

-- A2SG, man, those are some loud crickets out there!

Practical Ideas: Continue to improve the NICS system especially in the incorporation of data from the states, vigorously enforce existing laws on gun trafficking, straw purchases etc. (all NRA supported items). I would add we pass the National Right to Carry law so that law abiding citizens who have concealed carry permits can carry in all 50 states.

 

[A2SG]

Here I agree with you. The state calls it a privilege but it is a de facto right.

The state doesn't call it a privilege at all, Mazock did. At least I've never heard of it officially called a privilege before.

So much so that even repeat drunk drivers are encouraged by the state to continue driving even after several revocations, as their vehicles aren't impounded for the duration of their revocation, which demonstrates sheer lunacy on the part of the state, and of course results in many deaths at the hands of these drunk drivers.

But that's yet another topic concerning the lunacy of the state. We should stick to the present gun control lunacy.

At least we can find common ground with the word "lunacy."

-- A2SG, why do I always want to say that word with a bad Cuban accent....

 

[A2SG]

How firearm rights are different than owning a car.

1. Owning a firearm is a Constitutional right, there's nothing in the Constitution about owning a car.

Not being mentioned in the Constitution doesn't preclude something from being a right. Remember the Ninth Amendment!

Rights shall not be denied to citizens except by due process of law.

You can't be denied the right to obtain a driver's license without due process of law.

(Oh, by the way, since you actually phrased it "owning a car", I should point out that the government can't deny you the right to buy a car under any circumstances, even if you don't have a driver's license.)

2. I am licensed to operate a motor vehcile on public roadways. If I have a vehicle and keep it on private land I don't need a license, insurance or registration, but the instant I take it onto public roads I have to abide by their rules since they built the roads.

True enough, operating a firearm doesn't require you use public roads. Then again, the same can be said for operating a toothbrush. I'm not sure how that relates to the subject of legal rights, though, but I'll grant you it.

3. Many states require citizens with concealed wepons permits to attend training. Ohio, when I currently live, requires an 8 hour class.

And all states require citizens seeking a driver's license to be trained, not only in operating a vehicle but in the rules of the road.

How long that training lasts differs.

-- A2SG, while this is certainly an interesting diversion, I'm still unclear on what it has to do with the legal definition of a right......

 

[A2SG]

Because Democrats lost control of Congress in part due to the 1993 Assault Weapons ban. That put an end to dumb gun control ideas until this past December.

Um, who became Speaker of the House in 2003 again?

But, regardless of who controlled Congress, could you tell me how many attempts were made to ban all guns, even if they failed? How many bills were proposed in Congress to that effect?

-- A2SG, I mean, they did try, didn't they? Otherwise, it'd just be paranoia....

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Um, who became Speaker of the House in 2003 again?

But, regardless of who controlled Congress, could you tell me how many attempts were made to ban all guns, even if they failed? How many bills were proposed in Congress to that effect?

-- A2SG, I mean, they did try, didn't they? Otherwise, it'd just be paranoia....

You are right - the dumb ideas of gun control persisted, but fortunately for us, they never went anywhere.

 

[A2SG]

Practical Ideas: Continue to improve the NICS system especially in the incorporation of data from the states, vigorously enforce existing laws on gun trafficking, straw purchases etc. (all NRA supported items). I would add we pass the National Right to Carry law so that law abiding citizens who have concealed carry permits can carry in all 50 states.

So let me see, that's two for enforce current laws, and one for more guns.

Maybe I was unclear, I was hoping for new ideas, not just the same old ones over and over again.

-- A2SG, as to enforcement of existing gun laws, having the Senate confirm a director for ATF for the first time in 6 years might go a long way toward that....

 

[A2SG]

You are right - the dumb ideas of gun control persisted, but fortunately for us, they never went anywhere.

Ideas are a dime a dozen. Nothing to get paranoid over.

-- A2SG, I'm a writer, I have ideas all the time....

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Ideas are a dime a dozen. Nothing to get paranoid over.

-- A2SG, I'm a writer, I have ideas all the time....

I'm not paranoid. I am adamant about protection the 2nd Amendment right to bear arms. You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers.

 

[A2SG]

I'm not paranoid. I am adamant about protection the 2nd Amendment right to bear arms. You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers.

Dude, I don't want your gun.

-- A2SG, or your fingers, no matter what their temperature.....

 

[Crusader05]

So let me see, that's two for enforce current laws, and one for more guns.

Maybe I was unclear, I was hoping for new ideas, not just the same old ones over and over again.

-- A2SG, as to enforcement of existing gun laws, having the Senate confirm a director for ATF for the first time in 6 years might go a long way toward that....

This is where we see the different philosophies on the role of government. Some believe a limited government is best, others want more government. Some believe we can legislate our way to perfect safety. I'm not being nihilistic I just believe limited government.

We already have around 20,000 laws relating to firearms on the books, Adam Lanza broke dozens before he even broke into the school that day. Clearly they weren't deterrents. So yeah, I'm extremely skeptical more gun laws are the answer. Take away one gun, he uses another, take away one type of magaizines he loads more, guess what? the guy was insane.

What law would have stopped this? Probably something improving our mental health system so he was being treated.

What "new ideas" other than shredding the 2nd Amendment do you have in mind? I see this event as a tragic event calling for better mental health care and school security. But the anti-gun forces see a perfect opportunity to impose stronger gun laws, "never let a crisis go to waste".

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The state doesn't call it a privilege at all, Mazock did. At least I've never heard of it officially called a privilege before.


....

It's called a privilege everywhere in America, probably because it can be suspended or revoked under certain circumstances.