Why I love the 2nd Amendment......

Loudmouth

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This is where we see the different philosophies on the role of government. Some believe a limited government is best, others want more government.

That is not what I have found. Conservatives want more government in the doctors office in order to prevent abortions. Conservatives want more government to prevent gay marriages. I could go on and on where conservatives want more government. conservatives do not believe in limited government. They never have. They just want to get rid of government programs that they don't like.

What "new ideas" other than shredding the 2nd Amendment do you have in mind?

The courts have already ruled that banning assault weapons and limiting magazine size do not overly burden the 2nd Amendment. Again, why do you think the NRA or other pro-gun group failed to bring the previous assault weapons ban to the Supreme Court?
 
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Crusader05

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That is not what I have found. Conservatives want more government in the doctors office in order to prevent abortions. Conservatives want more government to prevent gay marriages. I could go on and on where conservatives want more government. conservatives do not believe in limited government. They never have. They just want to get rid of government programs that they don't like.

I don't think government should be involved in those areas either! Yeah, there are some folks who believe that but that's not the issue here.
 
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A2SG

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This is where we see the different philosophies on the role of government. Some believe a limited government is best, others want more government. Some believe we can legislate our way to perfect safety. I'm not being nihilistic I just believe limited government.

In my opinion, most of the time when someone says they favor "limited government," they mean a government that enforces the laws they like and ignores the ones they don't. No gun laws, but if a woman wants an abortion, then the full weight and force of government regulation comes a-callin', that kinda thing.

So forgive me if I'm a bit skeptical when I see that term bandied about.

We already have around 20,000 laws relating to firearms on the books, Adam Lanza broke dozens before he even broke into the school that day. Clearly they weren't deterrents. So yeah, I'm extremely skeptical more gun laws are the answer. Take away one gun, he uses another, take away one type of magaizines he loads more, guess what? the guy was insane.

What law would have stopped this? Probably something improving our mental health system so he was being treated.

What "new ideas" other than shredding the 2nd Amendment do you have in mind? I see this event as a tragic event calling for better mental health care and school security. But the anti-gun forces see a perfect opportunity to impose stronger gun laws, "never let a crisis go to waste".

It isn't being "anti-gun" to acknowledge that guns are dangerous when used correctly, and need to be regulated to avoid as much misuse as possible. It's the same reason we require all drivers know how to operate a vehicle and know the rules of the road BEFORE they are allowed to drive by themselves.

Yes, there are existing laws that need to be enforced better. Everyone acknowledges that. And yet, the Senate has refused to confirm an ATF director for 6 years. Obviously, there are some in this country who do NOT want to see gun laws enforced. No one is Really Able to say for sure who those people are, but we can guess.

Maybe people in this country will take gun-nuts seriously (and maybe even stop calling them gun nuts!) when any attempt at reasonable regulation isn't met with compete and utter paranoid resistance and talk of cold dead fingers and the like.

-- A2SG, I don't want anyone's guns, but I can't deny I wouldn't sleep better at night if some people didn't have them either.....
 
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Jeffwhosoever

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Cite a study that clearly demonstrates that the 1993 assault weapons ban significantly reduced gun related homicides.

While you do research to find out you cannot, enjoy this:

TrillionDollarBill.png


By the time he's done, Obama will have gone through at least 8 of these!!!!
 
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A2SG

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It's called a privilege everywhere in America, probably because it can be suspended or revoked under certain circumstances.

All rights can be, under due process of law. Up to and including the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

-- A2SG, but tell me, since it was the legal definition in question, what is the legal definition of a privilege and how does it differ from a right?
 
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A2SG

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Cite a study that clearly demonstrates that the 1993 assault weapons ban significantly reduced gun related homicides.

Sorry, did anyone claim it would?

-- A2SG, I'd love to find a way to significantly reduce gun related homicides, but short of making every gun in the world magically vanish, I'm unclear on how to do that, exactly....
 
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Jeffwhosoever

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Sorry, did anyone claim it would?

-- A2SG, I'd love to find a way to significantly reduce gun related homicides, but short of making every gun in the world magically vanish, I'm unclear on how to do that, exactly....

So you agree that a ban on assault weapons and 30 round clips is a total waste of time and only distracts from real solutions such as enforcing the existing rules (24 people arrested for trying to buy guns and being a convicted felon), since there is no evidence that the 1993 ban did anything to effect gun related homicides?
 
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Blackguard_

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It isn't being "anti-gun" to acknowledge that guns are dangerous when used correctly

Maybe, but it is "ignorance". Guns are actually remarkably safe when used correctly.

Or maybe weasel words, as in gun is "dangerous" to the criminal the gun is pointed at?

And yet, the Senate has refused to confirm an ATF director for 6 years. Obviously, there are some in this country who do NOT want to see gun laws enforced

Actually, there's a lot of Federal firearms laws I'd like to see not be enforced.

"felon in possession"? Sure, I guess, although I don't see why someone you can't trust with a gun was released to begin with.

"Possessing a shotgun with a barrel a half inch too short"? Is that really something worth shooting women and children over(Ruby Ridge)?
 
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A2SG

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So you agree that a ban on assault weapons and 30 round clips is a total waste of time and only distracts from real solutions such as enforcing the existing rules, since there is no evidence that the 1993 ban did anything to effect gun related homicides?

No.

-- A2SG, won't bore you with another reiteration of my opinion on it....
 
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Jeffwhosoever

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No.

-- A2SG, won't bore you with another reiteration of my opinion on it....

OK, so you have no data to support your opinion. Check.

MjAxMi00ODRlOTFmY2ZjNjdhMWNh.png
 
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A2SG

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Maybe, but it is "ignorance". Guns are actually remarkably safe when used correctly.

Only if you're holding it. Otherwise, they are extremely dangerous when used correctly.

Or maybe weasel words, as in gun is "dangerous" to the criminal the gun is pointed at?

ANYONE it's pointed at. Criminals, victims, innocent bystanders, kindergartners.

Actually, there's a lot of Federal firearms laws I'd like to see not be enforced.

"felon in possession"? Sure, I guess, although I don't see why someone you can't trust with a gun was released to begin with.

Criminals are sometimes released for reasons other than how trustworthy with a gun they are.

"Possessing a shotgun with a barrel a half inch too short"? Is that really something worth shooting women and children over(Ruby Ridge)?

Uh, that wasn't the only reason, dude.

-- A2SG, as I've said before, if you don't like existing gun laws, feel free to speak to your elected representatives about them...but as for not following them, why would a responsible gun owner not comply with the law?
 
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A2SG

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OK, so you have no data to support your opinion. Check.

Ah, I see you're only interested in putting words in my mouth instead of listening to what I have to say.

Good to know.

-- A2SG, will keep that in mind in future conversations....
 
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Jeffwhosoever

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Ah, I see you're only interested in putting words in my mouth instead of listening to what I have to say.

Good to know.

-- A2SG, will keep that in mind in future conversations....

I'm interested in facts that presumably support the idea that an assault weapons ban and restrictions on 30 round magazines will significantly reduce gun related homicides in the United States.
 
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A2SG

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I'm interested in facts that presumably support the idea that an assault weapons ban and restrictions on 30 round magazines will significantly reduce gun related homicides in the United States.

Ah. Then ask whoever claimed that.

-- A2SG, sorry to interrupt....
 
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Loudmouth

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So you agree that a ban on assault weapons and 30 round clips is a total waste of time and only distracts from real solutions such as enforcing the existing rules (24 people arrested for trying to buy guns and being a convicted felon), since there is no evidence that the 1993 ban did anything to effect gun related homicides?

It's as much a distraction as those who spend so much time fighting the assault weapons ban. There is no evidence that the 1993 assault weapons ban reduced the ability of the public to protect themself from an oppresive government.
 
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Loudmouth

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Cite a study that clearly demonstrates that the 1993 assault weapons ban significantly reduced gun related homicides.

While you do research to find out you cannot, enjoy this:

TrillionDollarBill.png


By the time he's done, Obama will have gone through at least 8 of these!!!!

Show a study that demonstrates that the assault weapons ban prevented citizens from defending themselves from the government.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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This from CBS news last evening.

The previously 'hidden' reason why New York City's murder rate is so much lower than Chicago's (it use to be the other way around) is because New York imposes minimum sentences for crimes involving guns i.e. 3 to 5 years mandatory. This says two important things:

That incarcerating criminals for a long time reduces gun violence.

That gun laws don't prevent criminals from obtaining, possessing, and using guns for criminal purposes.

Chicago on the other hand imposes relatively light jail terms or probation for the same offenses.
 
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