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Maybe it's like some relationships where your significant other professes love to you, but has a laundry list of changes you need to make.
Maybe it's like the "man hug" -- y'know, hug with one arm, pound on the other guy's back with the other arm. As one comic put it, "I'm hugging you but beating you at the same time."
(The coffee's just kicking in right now)
If perfection is complete in its harmony with God,
God is wrathful against anything that has not remained conformed to His design and purpose.and God is wrathful, wrath must therefore be a part of perfection,
and if wrath is a part of perfection, God has contradicted himself in wanting something different for us, something, if we follow the above pattern of logic, less than perfection, as we are told by Jesus to turn the other cheek, to love our neighbour as ourselves, and set aside our anger, and our want of retribution.
'Feeling' you are wrong has no bearing on this debate.If this is not less than perfection, then it must be a step higher than perfection, thereby nullifying the previously supposed perfection, because simultaneously exercising wrath whilst setting it aside cannot logically happen in action. If you feel I'm wrong, please provide an example.
I disagree. If love had no opposition, there would still be love, it just may not be recognized as love, or at all. If a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it, it still makes a sound; it still emits sound waves, even if there's no ear to pick them up and identify them.
This is an entirely invalid analogy.I remember the first time I was stung by a bee. Right on the eye! Ow!
I didn't try to swat the bee away because (true story) my mom had told me that bees only sting people who panic.
So I stood my ground, and dernitt if Mr. Bee didn't sting me anyway.
I ran home and cried to my mom about two things:
1) How bad my eye hurt.
2) I couldn't believe my mom had lied to me.
Though I was only 5 at the time, I remember that day very well. My mom cradled me and cooed until I could manage to calm down enough to really listen to how sorry she was and that not all bees are that mean.
I just found a bad bee.
My mom loved me that day, and that was perhaps the day I realized how much I loved her.
(Here's the fictional bit added for contrast)
Then she beat my butt 'til it was purple and I couldn't help but think how christlike she was.
(Fictional contrast ends here)
Nope. Love can exist without wrath.
It's better that way.
Love is not love if a violation of that love does not produce some level of wrath.
This is an entirely invalid analogy.
First: If this analogy were serious, the bee would have been put to death.
Actually, by stinging you, it executed itself. But that is irrelevant.
Second: The Bee was doing what the Bee was supposed to do.
Now a real analogy:
A man walks into your yard and sees you. He grabs you and begins to molest you.
You hear a loud *bang* and see blood splatter across the short of the man and the ground.
You turn to see your mother holding a rifle with smoke dispersing into the air.
That is love.
This ^^^^If there's one common mistake people in this big world make, it's underestimating God's unconditional love and grace. It is so much wider and deeper than human beings can comprehend. There are so many "Christians" that still seem to think that we have to earn grace. Sheesh. The Bible makes it clear enough that every single human being will eventually make it into heaven. The only choice we really have is whether it'll be the easy way or the hard way. Easy way is at least trying to stick to the first and highest commandment - that of love. That's all. I can already hear the sound of fingers tapping away feverishly, so I'll explain a bit.
The Bible says that the Spirit of God will be poured out to all flesh in the last days. This has started happening already. It also makes it clear that all of us will most certainly reach perfection. 1Peter 5:10 comes to mind, but it's somewhere else as well... So, the easy way would be to at least try to listen and obey. The ones who steadfastly refuse to listen will have to suffer through some scary stuff (Like a star that will fall to the earth and cause billions of people to get wiped out) as written in Revelations. So, all those who'd like to catch the first flight into heaven should at least try to get the basics right as written in the Bible. If one could compare getting eternal life to an exam, there would be one question on love, that counts 51%, with a pass rate of 50%. This means that without love, you'll have to walk the hard way. Being judgemental is a sure fire way to make it really difficult for yourself.
Well, I've decided to be a liberal Episcopalian. I have also applied to moderate Christian Forums, one of those forums being WWMC.
Thanks for applying to be a moderator! It's not an easy job. It's good of you to offer to step up! I hope you pass the tests!
God bless~
Same here
If there's one common mistake people in this big world make, it's underestimating God's unconditional love and grace. It is so much wider and deeper than human beings can comprehend.
There are so many "Christians" that still seem to think that we have to earn grace.
The Bible makes it clear enough that every single human being will eventually make it into heaven.
The Bible says that the Spirit of God will be poured out to all flesh in the last daysThis has started happening already. It also makes it clear that all of us will most certainly reach perfection. 1Peter 5:10 comes to mind
The only choice we really have is whether it'll be the easy way or the hard way.
No those who steadfastly refuse to listen will end up in the Lake of Fire.The ones who steadfastly refuse to listen will have to suffer through some scary stuff (Like a star that will fall to the earth and cause billions of people to get wiped out) as written in Revelations.
So, all those who'd like to catch the first flight into heaven should at least try to get the basics right as written in the Bible
If one could compare getting eternal life to an exam, there would be one question on love, that counts 51%, with a pass rate of 50%.
This means that without love, you'll have to walk the hard way
Well, I've decided to be a liberal Episcopalian. I have also applied to moderate Christian Forums, one of those forums being WWMC.
This ^^^^
If any one thing that I've read would get me to return to Christianity, it's this!
So very well said, my friend
and I'm getting to the stage that I don't have the capacity to care anymore
Just because a book badly translated from it's original language says I am?
No-one really knows, for all the assurances, no-one really knows.
And I will continue to love you for thatWhat I do know is that I shall treat all people well regardless of where I may end up.
I do so for no expectation of heavenly reward...
it makes me a nice person, I hope, and that's fine with me...I can look myself in the eye and know that I have not upset anyone or myself. If I burn for that, so be it.
Jay, it's odd how much your views conflict with mine, and yet how nice you are about handing them out. That was a very nice way of coming back to Minty's post.
So what is hell if not eternal, fiery damnation, then? And if I am a good person, yet do not accept Jesus as my saviour, then what?Jayangel81 said:You arent going to burn for that Minty..noone "burns" because we are nice and loving
Forgiveness can exist and cover some things on a case by case situation between human beings. Especially between believers.The concept of forgiveness seems to be alien to your viewpoint.
You see... if you didn't include the part about being assaulted by your mother I would agree with you. However, you did.It's only invalid if you assume that I intended the bee to part of some love triangle. It wasn't. It was just a bee.
Yes. The bee was irrelevant.
The bee is still irrelevant.
*cough* Hell *cough*I'm curious about this anaology. If God Himself wouldn't smite the molestor, does that mean God doesn't love me?
Please read the "fictional" part of the story again.
The bee was your antagonist. No antagonist, no drama, no drama... no story.And forget the bee . . .
Redundancy fail.Well, I've decided to be a liberal Episcopalian.
Oh my.I have also applied to moderate Christian Forums, one of those forums being WWMC.
Ok.One thing is for sure, the Bible is quite a lot to take in at one time. I'm looking at Mat 25:32 - 46. It is what Jesus says about the end - the day of judgement.
He will separate the believers from the non-believers.He says that the nations of the world shall be seperated, those that practiced love and those that didn't.
No. They are not earning their salvation through "genuine love".It does seem to say that whosoever practiced genuine love towards one another shall be saved. For that reason, I'd hate to think that non-Christians who lived lives of love and kindness would be sent to eternal damnation.
Yes He does. It is implicitly limited. It is limited to those in the kingdom.I'm also looking at Mat 18:3 and further. It does say that whosoever shall humble themselves like little children shall be the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. He doesn't limit this promise to Christians only.
Please quote the verses you are referring to.If one also adds that to what the Bible says about the Spirit of God that will be poured out to all flesh in the last days,
Utterly false. In fact the Bible states very clearly the exact opposite of what you just claimed.The Bible makes it clear enough that every single human being will eventually make it into heaven.
The Bible says that the Spirit of God will be poured out to all flesh in the last days. This has started happening already. It also makes it clear that all of us will most certainly reach perfection. 1Peter 5:10 comes to mind, but it's somewhere else as well... So, the easy way would be to at least try to listen and obey. The ones who steadfastly refuse to listen will have to suffer through some scary stuff (Like a star that will fall to the earth and cause billions of people to get wiped out) as written in Revelations. So, all those who'd like to catch the first flight into heaven should at least try to get the basics right as written in the Bible. If one could compare getting eternal life to an exam, there would be one question on love, that counts 51%, with a pass rate of 50%. This means that without love, you'll have to walk the hard way. Being judgemental is a sure fire way to make it really difficult for yourself.
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