Why I hate being labeled a "Protestant"

Bizzlebin Imperatoris · Aug 27, 2004

happyinhisgrace said:
The only "thing" that gets souls to Heaven, is Jesus.

Archbishop 10-K · Aug 27, 2004

Bizzlebin Imperatoris said:
Do you have a scripture that supports purgatory by chance?

The most explicit is from 2 Maccabees 12:43-46, a book which was removed from the Bible by Martin Luther because he couldn't reconcile it with his interpretation of Scripture.

[font=Trebuchet MS,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection.[/font]

[font=Trebuchet MS,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica](For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)[/font]

[font=Trebuchet MS,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.[/font]

[font=Trebuchet MS,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.[/font]

Bizzlebin Imperatoris · Aug 27, 2004

How does that apply to the New Covenant? Do you have any NT references?

Archbishop 10-K · Aug 28, 2004

Bizzlebin Imperatoris said:
How does that apply to the New Covenant? Do you have any NT references?

Alright. 2 Timothy 1:16-18. Here, we have St. Paul praying for God to show mercy to Onesiphorus. But, mercy is not needed if he is in heaven, and no mercy is given if he is in hell. So, where is Onesiphorus? In purgatory.

May the Lord show mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains. On the contrary, when he was in Rome, he searched hard for me until he found me. May the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! You know very well in how many ways he helped me in Ephesus.

Hebrews 12:14 says that "without holiness no one will see the Lord." That is what purgatory is. It is a purification before entering heaven, so that you are perfect. After all, no man with sin can enter heaven, right? (Revelation 21:27)

Paul again describes it in 1 Corinthians 3:13. "His work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work." This describes exactly what purgatory is.

I believe that once a non-Catholic understands what purgatory is, then they find it to be an acceptible belief.

happyinhisgrace · Aug 28, 2004

Archbishop 10-K said:
Alright. 2 Timothy 1:16-18. Here, we have St. Paul praying for God to show mercy to Onesiphorus. But, mercy is not needed if he is in heaven, and no mercy is given if he is in hell. So, where is Onesiphorus? In purgatory.

Hebrews 12:14 says that "without holiness no one will see the Lord." That is what purgatory is. It is a purification before entering heaven, so that you are perfect. After all, no man with sin can enter heaven, right? (Revelation 21:27)

Right, but Jesus took our sins upon Him in that through our acceptance of Him, we may be made pure in the eyes of God. To me that passage of scripture is just referring to Jesus being Holy for us so as we can enter heaven.

Paul again describes it in 1 Corinthians 3:13. "His work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work." This describes exactly what purgatory is.

I believe that once a non-Catholic understands what purgatory is, then they find it to be an acceptible belief.

I don't find it acceptable because what I understand of it (and I may be wrong here) is that it is a lot like the Mormon belief of "spirit prison" where one goes to either learn the "gospel" and progress forward to a level of heaven on ressurection day or to await ressurection to a "lower kingdom of glory".

Archbishop 10-K · Aug 28, 2004

happyinhisgrace said:
I don't find it acceptable because what I understand of it (and I may be wrong here) is that it is a lot like the Mormon belief of "spirit prison" where one goes to either learn the "gospel" and progress forward to a level of heaven on ressurection day or to await ressurection to a "lower kingdom of glory".

Levels of heaven? What? I believe heaven is quite Communist (everyone's equal. I know, bad joke.) All that purgatory is is being purified from sin. The Church doesn't even teach that it has to take any amount of time.

Now, the phrase "prison" was actually used in the Bible. 1 Peter 3:19, referring to Jesus, "through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison."

Lynn73 · Aug 28, 2004

Archbishop 10-K said:
I believe that once a non-Catholic understands what purgatory is, then they find it to be an acceptible belief.

Not this non-Catholic. I don't find purgatory in the Scripture. I read the verses in 1 Timothy and I don't see it.

1Jo 1:7

Click to expand...

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Jesus shed blood pays for ALL our sins. There's no need for a purgatory. In my view it's an insult to Christ's sacrifice. We don't have to help Him save us by going and suffering in a purgatory. He paid it all. He suffered hell for us, we don't have to. To me, it's like people are wanting some kind of credit for getting themselves into heaven. They feel they must suffer when Jesus did all the suffering for us.

Archbishop 10-K · Aug 28, 2004

Lynn73 said:
Jesus shed blood pays for ALL our sins. There's no need for a purgatory. In my view it's an insult to Christ's sacrifice. We don't have to help Him save us by going and suffering in a purgatory. He paid it all. He suffered hell for us, we don't have to. To me, it's like people are wanting some kind of credit for getting themselves into heaven. They feel they must suffer when Jesus did all the suffering for us.

That's not what purgatory is about. All purgatory does is cleanse us of the tendency to sin. Do you really think you're ready for heaven as you are right now? I'm not. I'll probably screw up 5 minutes after getting there.

Lynn73 · Aug 28, 2004

I highly doubt that once we're in heaven and have received our new bodies that the tendency to sin will remain. The new bodies won't be the kind we have now and it's in our flesh that the lust and sin desires are, isn't it? How can you "screw up" (I assume you mean sin) 5 minutes after you get to heaven when there's no sin allowed in heaven? We won't want to sin and the tendency to sin will no longer plague us imho. We don't need a purgatory for that. Receiving our new bodies and being in God's holy heaven and Presence is enough.

Archbishop 10-K · Aug 28, 2004

At it's most basic understanding, all that purgatory is is a process where the tendency to sin is removed.

As for suffering, I don't believe Christ died to make us not suffer anymore. I'm suffering here and now in my life, and Christ has already died for my sins. However, our suffering now has redemptive value, so that we have someone to suffer for (Jesus.) I would love to suffer for His holy name.

edit- I just realized that this thread is in the non-denominational board and not the General Theology. So, if anyone is tired of me debating for purgatory, just ask. I don't think I'm actually supposed to be arguing on you guys' turf. Sorry.

ps139 · Aug 28, 2004

Lynn73 said:
I highly doubt that once we're in heaven and have received our new bodies that the tendency to sin will remain. The new bodies won't be the kind we have now and it's in our flesh that the lust and sin desires are, isn't it? How can you "screw up" (I assume you mean sin) 5 minutes after you get to heaven when there's no sin allowed in heaven? We won't want to sin and the tendency to sin will no longer plague us imho. We don't need a purgatory for that. Receiving our new bodies and being in God's holy heaven and Presence is enough.

Hi Lynn,

We believe that "purgatory" refers to the process by which the tendency to sin is eliminated. Most Catholics believe that it is a place, and you're there for a certain time, but thats all speculation, and to believe in the process of purification, one does not need to believe its a time or place. Not trying to debate, just to clear up some confusion about what we believe. It sort of sounds like you believe the same thing, we just call it a different name.

happyinhisgrace · Aug 29, 2004

Archbishop 10-K said:
That's not what purgatory is about. All purgatory does is cleanse us of the tendency to sin. Do you really think you're ready for heaven as you are right now? I'm not. I'll probably screw up 5 minutes after getting there.

Absolutly! I am far from perfect but Jesus is perfection for me and that is all we need to be redeemed and enter Heaven.

Lynn73 · Aug 29, 2004

Thanks for the explanation, ps139 even though I don't believe in it. Different Catholics sometimes give differing explanations on it so it can be confusing.

Yes, happyinhisgrace, Jesus is our perfection and righteousness. His righteosness is imputed to us.

Monica02 · Aug 30, 2004

I thought that Purgatory was also where punishment due to already forgiven sins was taken care of. This is where indulgences come in handy.

soldout · Aug 30, 2004

ppssstt...Hey buddy. You wanna buy some indulgences? These are top notch. Sell em to ya cheap.

Just kidding everybody. I was just surprised to see such a topic of conversation in a forum with it's roots in Luther flipping out at the same thing.

Never mind me, carry on.

Bizzlebin Imperatoris · Aug 30, 2004

Monica02 said:
I thought that Purgatory was also where punishment due to already forgiven sins was taken care of. This is where indulgences come in handy.

If they are forgiven, there is no punishment

Lynn73 · Aug 30, 2004

Exactly. There's no punishment for us for forgiven sin. Jesus has already fully paid the punishment. Totally. Completely. Also, there's no such thing as indulgences. It's a Catholic invention and has no biblical basis imho.

Monica02 · Aug 30, 2004

Bizzlebin Imperatoris said:
If they are forgiven, there is no punishment

Not according to Catholic theology. Your sins can be forgiven but you still must make reparations. If you have unforgiven mortal sin on your soul you will not enter purgatory /heaven. What does the Bible say about paying the last penny and not letting unclean things enter?

soldout · Aug 30, 2004

Monica02 said:
Not according to Catholic theology. Your sins can be forgiven but you still must make reparations. If you have unforgiven mortal sin on your soul you will not enter purgatory /heaven. What does the Bible say about paying the last penny and not letting unclean things enter?

If a person does not let Jesus pay for their failure, they will never get to heaven. They have counted the death of my Lord a small thing and rejected God.

The bible is really pretty clear about all this.

Archbishop 10-K · Aug 30, 2004

Monica02 said:
Not according to Catholic theology. Your sins can be forgiven but you still must make reparations. If you have unforgiven mortal sin on your soul you will not enter purgatory /heaven. What does the Bible say about paying the last penny and not letting unclean things enter?

Luke 12:59, straight from the Lord's mouth. "I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny."

Like I might have said earlier, I do not believe Jesus died to take suffering away from us. I still suffer here today. But, Jesus died so I do not have to "die the death", that is, be banished from God's presence in hell. I do not believe that Catholics devalue Jesus' suffering. We, in fact, are criticized often for focusing on the passion too much (crucifix, stations of the cross, sacrifice of the Mass, etc.)

Why I hate being labeled a "Protestant"

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