Why I feel so shaky in faith

[canadianian]

Hello friends,

It is a pleasure to meet you all. I thought I would introduce myself by throwing out why I chose to return to this forum after two years of absence. I never quite got involved in the forum, but joined when my faith life was falling to shambles due to personal problems. I have come a long way since then, but still have a lot of problems with Christian faith. I'm glad to see there is a liberal forum here so maybe fellow liberals you can lend me your ear and your keyboards with your thoughts.

First a bit of background. I have grown up in the United Church of Canada and this was followed by the Lutheran Church. In my teens I changed churches to one that could only be described as evangelical charismatic. I really enjoyed the church and its deep worship of god, but felt that I had no place being there after the pastor called on the congregants to sign up to protest outside the women's hospital against abortion and the gay pride parade.

I have always felt that reproductive choice and gay marriage were not terrible things and to asked to protest something I consider a human right made me sick to my stomach. Since then I spent three years at a Christian University and briefly attended an alliance church. I fell off that track and into a deep depression three years ago and have since been battling OCD.

I have thought deeply about spirituality since then and have come up with a series of questions that disturb me and even though I really want to love God and respect my Christian heritage it is so hard.

So here is where I presently sit and then I will list some reasons.

I believe that God exists and that the various faiths of the world are manifestations of God that makes sense in the culture, place and time for the people involved.

I believe that Jesus and God and the Holy spirit appear to people around the globe in the way they need to appear,

I believe in the power of prayer

I believe in free will

I believe in the fact that god may not send anyone to hell permanently, but make them feel guilt for their sins until they are cleansed.

I also am prochoice and pro-gay marriage. You are allowed disagree I am not promoting it either way. I banged my head against the wall way too long on those two issues. I just gave it up to god and said this is what I believe and I just can't do otherwise it’s not in my nature.

This is simply a beginning of my thoughts but that is the crux of it.

Questions I have

If God and Jesus and the HS are one in the same. How do I negotiate the amount of death God orders in the OT with Jesus? We're talking about the death of whole civilizations here. Death of children all over Rome when Jesus is born, and the death of children in civilizations that worshipped the wrong god. It breaks my heart. Today we would call something like that genocide.

How do I negotiate suffering in today's world? The example I can think of most clearly is the recent death of my friend's husband. If God can foresee all, change all, stop all, or control all. Why on earth take my friends husband in his prime with three children under ten. What is the logic?

How do I negotiate the great commission with my pluralistic worldview? Why is it that the evangelical church feels compelled to preach to Catholics?

How do we justify the rampant atheism that exists in our 21st century world? Why give us such critically thinking minds at all when we are bound to see the universe as random if given enough slack.

This all makes me so shaky in my faith.

Thank you for reading and feel free to comment on some or all.

 

[SuziTiri]

you seem like a really awesome person! you are Canadian too! yay! I am pro gay marriage myself ( well i am lesbian and getting married to my gf soon) and i love minds that are open minded ,full of free will and willing to learn new things,,,like yours is! Welcome and so awesome you can be here! i go to the United Church myself ..i tried a charasmatic church for a while but it wasn't my thing,,,i went cuz my step-bro is a pastor.
its refreshing to see more people with similar ideas and values see you around!
Suzi

 

[trek4fr]

Welcome back, Canadianian. Our journeys (yours and mine) share some similarities. My faith came crashing down a few years back due to many of the same issues and questions you have mentioned. But it was not a sudden thing for me, more of a "straw that broke the camel's back." The only thing that has began rebuilding it is my experience of God's unconditional love for me, inspite of what I may or may not believe.

I am far from having all the answers. But, if I might, allow me to ask a few further questions based upon your own.

If God and Jesus and the HS are one in the same. How do I negotiate the amount of death God orders in the OT with Jesus? We're talking about the death of whole civilizations here. Death of children all over Rome when Jesus is born, and the death of children in civilizations that worshipped the wrong god. It breaks my heart. Today we would call something like that genocide.

Is it possible that the apostle Paul was right that when it comes to seeing God, we still see "through a glass darkly"? Is it possible that the ancient Jews formed God into their own image because they needed a divine warrior at that point in their journey? Do we not "bless" our own troops today and hope that God will be on their side as they fight? I'm not saying this is right or defending it, just that God has always been used to further a human agenda.

How do I negotiate suffering in today's world? The example I can think of most clearly is the recent death of my friend's husband. If God can foresee all, change all, stop all, or control all. Why on earth take my friends husband in his prime with three children under ten. What is the logic?

Is it possible that we misunderstand God's sovereignty and misinterpret it as control? What if God's sovereignty is not so much related to him sitting in heaven and pulling levers and pushing buttons as much as it is related to the notion that he owns everything, has given us stewardship over much, and will somehow, in the end, make all things work together for good? What if God's power is not so much in preventing or erradicating evil and accidents, but in somehow transforming them?

How do I negotiate the great commission with my pluralistic worldview? Why is it that the evangelical church feels compelled to preach to Catholics?

Is it possible that we misunderstand the GC in that we think it means to take Christianity (a belief system) to the world, when it is really about taking Jesus' teachings about loving God and loving others to the world? If others are already loving God and loving each other, are they not already "followers of Jesus" though they may not know his name? Are they not already doing what he said to do if they feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, heal the sick, and improve the quality of lives?

How do we justify the rampant atheism that exists in our 21st century world? Why give us such critically thinking minds at all when we are bound to see the universe as random if given enough slack.

Almost all of the great religions and philosophies deny that everything is "random." They see some sort of pattern or repetition or cycle to what we might call Truth. Science "works" because our universe has laws and is not complete chaos. Look up Anthony Flew's story if you have time. Atheism has some legitimate complaints against theism and Christianity. But much of this is, imo, because Christianity has often portrayed God as someone who "randomly" heals or shows up or is in this person but not in that person or who plays favorites or who plays dice with the universe. The God that Jesus portrayed doesn't love Jews only. He loves the world. But this God doesn't stop all suffering either. He transforms it and redeems it. So is it possible that atheism is rampant because the Church portrays a god who is more like a genie from a bottle rather than an Empowerer? What if Christianity affirmed that God and his love is really in all of us and never leaves us as Jesus said? What if Christians did their Christianity in such a way that being a Christian was more about doing good in this world for the sake of others, rather than being about getting a seat in heaven? What if Christianity could show atheists that God is not an interventionist from outer space who wants to help us escape our world, but incarnate love in human beings today that want to make our world better?

As I said, Canadianian, I don't have all the answers. But I do want to start asking better questions. And many of those are centered around, not so much what Christians believe, but in how we act to show God to our world.

 

[Episcoboi]

If God and Jesus and the HS are one in the same. How do I negotiate the amount of death God orders in the OT with Jesus? We're talking about the death of whole civilizations here. Death of children all over Rome when Jesus is born, and the death of children in civilizations that worshipped the wrong god. It breaks my heart. Today we would call something like that genocide.

We must remember that the Bible is an amalgamation of several books, several writers, several genres, over centuries of time. The OT (I prefer Hebrew Bible) is wonderful, but, is nothing more than a sacred history (AKA the record of a community's understanding of their interaction with the Divine Mystery). Thus, it is not History as we know it today and was never meant to be. Read those stories as the Hebrew people calling divine sanction for their wars, battles, and (dare I say) attrocities at times. Heck we do the same today.

How do I negotiate suffering in today's world? The example I can think of most clearly is the recent death of my friend's husband. If God can foresee all, change all, stop all, or control all. Why on earth take my friends husband in his prime with three children under ten. What is the logic?

I don't think that God is "all knowing" in the sense of knowing the entire scheme of the future. God knows all that can be known about the world and human hearts, but, as God created an interactive, open-ended, dynamic and becoming universe, God's knowledge of the future is contingent. God doesn't know all possible outcomes of human futures, because we make those choices and God's knowledge is then shaped by the actions and the outcomes. There is no logic to death. It is sad, but it is simply part of life. Mourn, be angry, even be angry at God (She understands...Believe me). Death is simply a part of life. God cannot stop death. This universe is open ended and God flows with it and becomes with it.

How do I negotiate the great commission with my pluralistic worldview? Why is it that the evangelical church feels compelled to preach to Catholics?

I see the great commission "to make disciples of all people" as a call to work toward bringing the Commonwealth of God into the world and into the lives of all people. If we can help people to live better, saner, more compassionate lives, then we have fulfilled the commission and also helped to bring about the Commonwealth of God. The Great Commission to to turn the world to love, compassion, joy, peace, and true freedom...Not, to get people "saved" in the churchy sense of the world.

How do we justify the rampant atheism that exists in our 21st century world? Why give us such critically thinking minds at all when we are bound to see the universe as random if given enough slack.

I don't particularly see atheism as a bad thing. I think it is just one more way of seeing the world and our lives in it. If it gives meaning and purpose to a person's life...then by all means I support them in their beliefs. Growing up there was a quote that I loved by Brennan Manning, and, while I don't think that it holds true today, I do think it gives insight into why secular philosophies may have developed in the first place.

"The single greatest cause of atheism in the world today is Christians. Who claim Jesus with their lips, then walk out the door, and deny Him by their lifestyles. This is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable."

This all makes me so shaky in my faith.

It is okay to doubt. I myself have struggled with doubt my whole life. However, I have come to realize that even this doubt is a gift. I mean after all, it keeps us searching for God (believe me...You may give up for a time, but you always come back...You'll change your belief system...and then come back). I have vacillated, changed, given up, etc. so many times, but every time I return. And every time I come back with more than I left with. Doubt makes us hunger and yearn for Divinity. To me it is a blessing.

 

[Episcoboi]

I posted this in another forum, but I think it is important as it speaks to free will, Omniscience, etc....

"This also means that God is truly omniscient. But from the abstract idea of omniscience, which is not in the Bible, many in the tradition have concluded that God must know everything about the future in just as full detail as God knows the past and present. That theory leads to strange results. It means that when God calls one to act in a particular way, God knows in advance how one will respond. That seems to mean that one’s response is predetermined. This predetermination conflicts with the idea that we have responsibility for our actions.
The Bible certainly depicts God as knowing some things about the future. Often the knowledge is conditional, for example, about what will happen if people do not repent. But sometimes it seems to be unconditional. Certainly, God knows a great deal more about the future than we do. But process and openness theologians agree that it is wrong to draw from this truth the idea that God knows every detail about the future.
On the contrary, God is depicted in the Bible as interacting with free creatures. God acts, creatures respond freely to that act, and God responds to their response. God has the resources to respond to us whatever we do, but God does not know in advance just what we will. God knows everything about the future that is now settled. God knows how God will respond to all sorts of creaturely acts. But God does not know, until we decide, just which of those acts will take place.
This means also that God does not cause or control all of our actions. When we act contrary to God’s will, it is not God who causes us to do that. We are the agents of our own sins. God does not keep all the power. Creatures also exercise power. In that sense, process theologians and openness theologians agree that God does not act omnipotently."
(From PROCESS AND OPENNESS by Dr. John B. Cobb)

 

[ajf777]

First,Would it be possible for both Devine sovereignty and human responsibility to be true?Take what conservatives believe about the scriptures for instance.We claim that it Is God-breathed & written by men in their own language and often based on their own experiences.To be short,God inspired the authors to convey His message to His creation.Do you think the writers were acting against their will when they wrote scripture?No. The same dilemma is presented in this case.

Personally,I believe that God decreed whatsoever comes to pass & His most Holy and perfect plan will be accomplished.Take Joesph and his brothers:Selling Joesph into slavery was evil,but through this evil God had a plan to bring about the greater good.Also,in the crucifixion of our Lord:Wereall those involved not responsible for the greatest injustice in human history? Yes,but in Acts 4 we are told that they did what the Father "predestined".Those involved,Pilate,the Jews,roman soldiers ect were acting upon their free will & God's plan was full filled.

This is something that we cannot completely apprehend this side of heaven,but I for one am sure that " the judge of all the earth does right" & it all works out within the Devine mind of God.

 

[rayodeluz]

If God and Jesus and the HS are one in the same. How do I negotiate the amount of death God orders in the OT with Jesus? We're talking about the death of whole civilizations here. Death of children all over Rome when Jesus is born, and the death of children in civilizations that worshipped the wrong god. It breaks my heart. Today we would call something like that genocide.


How do I negotiate suffering in today's world? The example I can think of most clearly is the recent death of my friend's husband. If God can foresee all, change all, stop all, or control all. Why on earth take my friends husband in his prime with three children under ten. What is the logic?

When it comes to questions like these, I look at the bigger picture. I cannot answer what is God's logic for doing what He does, and it certainly doesn't make sense at times from a human perspective. However, let's assume God is who He says He is. If true then the planet Earth is just like a speck of sand in His kingdom. God may have ordered death in the OT, but who is to say that those people are not alive and well in another realm? Afterall, the idea of eternal life is a fundamental part of Christianity.


Suffering in today's world is horrible, but suffering has happened throughout history. Why God permits it here on earth is something we don't know, but it never lasts forever. This world is just a place we all temporarily pass through, and then we are taken out of it into a place where suffering does not exist.


I wish I had a firm answer, but maybe this world is just some kind of test for us,and all is resolved in the end.

 

[hedrick]

I believe that God exists and that the various faiths of the world are manifestations of God that makes sense in the culture, place and time for the people involved.
…..

I don't think any of what you say is inconsistent with the more liberal forms of Christianity represented here. For myself, it raises the question of the role of Christ. I think God can reach anyone, and so I don't feel the need to deny that other religions know something of God. But I also think in Jesus God did something that he hasn't done elsewhere, and that people who don't know him are missing something important. Furthermore, much of what I find good in the world, including "secular humanism" can be traced back to Jesus' influence, and I doubt its ability to sustain itself without the continuing activity of Jesus' followers.

If God and Jesus and the HS are one in the same. How do I negotiate the amount of death God orders in the OT with Jesus? We're talking about the death of whole civilizations here. Death of children all over Rome when Jesus is born, and the death of children in civilizations that worshipped the wrong god. It breaks my heart. Today we would call something like that genocide.

My conclusion is that while the OT shows us God's choice of Israel and his work with it, it does not show us a perfect response. I find it hard to believe that God asked his people to commit genocide. I find it easy to believe that early in the history of God working with Israel, people might have thought he had.

Also, I am skeptical about the historical accuracy of the OT before about the book of Judges. So some of those accounts are probably more legend than history. But still, during that time period I don't doubt that people saw God as a war god. Indeed one can see several different visions of God coexisting through much of the OT. Prophets, priests, and kings often had different perspectives, not all of which can be entirely right. E.g. I believe that the book of Jonah satirizes precisely the narrow-mindedness that we see in some other parts of the OT.

It's the purpose of Jesus, following in line with the prophets, to show us the right way.

How do I negotiate suffering in today's world? The example I can think of most clearly is the recent death of my friend's husband. If God can foresee all, change all, stop all, or control all. Why on earth take my friends husband in his prime with three children under ten. What is the logic?

I don't believe God specifically took your friend's husband. All indications I see in the Bible is that God rejects evil and suffering. But his response to them is to join us and bring good out of evil. It is not normally to remove evil. That's what the cross means.

Christian instinct is often to justify why God should allow evil, and why it's a good thing. Theologians are increasingly rejecting this approach, correctly I think. Luther refers to it as the "theology of glory" rather than the "theology of the cross."

I say that God doesn't normally intervene, because at times thing do happen which are hard to account for normally. Why intervene a few times but not normally? The only answer I know is that I don't know. I can give arguments for why it's good to have a world the behaves consistently. But if you take justification very far you end up calling evil good, and saying that God approves of evil. I think that's a bad idea.

The most interesting classical treatment I know of is from Luther. See http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/eq/2002-3_215.pdf. However I have the feeling that this may still effectively be a way of calling evil good.

How do I negotiate the great commission with my pluralistic worldview? Why is it that the evangelical church feels compelled to preach to Catholics?

Even from a liberal point of view I believe witnessing to the world is called for. Often it will be a witness for caring people and for justice. But they should be connected with Christ, because I think ultimately they rest on Christ. I believe we can talk about Jesus without necessarily condemning other people, but there are things in other religions (and in some Christianity as well) that in Jesus' name we have to reject, and which I believe God will judge.

Evangelicals believe that Catholics have made serious errors in understanding what God wants, and that those errors place their salvation at risk. Ironically I believe evangelicals are making essentially the same errors (legalism, and allowing tradition to trump Jesus' actual teachings). I don't think God is going to send them to hell for believing the wrong thing, but I do think it makes some people less effective servants than they have the potential to be.

How do we justify the rampant atheism that exists in our 21st century world? Why give us such critically thinking minds at all when we are bound to see the universe as random if given enough slack.

It's easy to see where it comes from. I don't know what limits, if any God has. Most people assume he could have made a world where people are forced into line by obvious divine actions. Lightning bolts, if you like. But that's not the God of the cross.

It's the job of Christians to be his witness.

 

[americanvet]

I have found the more I read the Bible to more OT, NT, and today are the same. God has not changed. Also by reading the OT and seeing the world then, the world today is not odd. May I suggest the following reading plan: http://www.wbfva.org/files/professor_grant_horners_bible_reading_system.pdf

 

[trek4fr]

God may or may not change. But our human understandings of God certainly do. Ancient Israel understood God to be a deity to lead them into war and give them the victory over neighboring nations. Some of this theology still lingers today. But we don't follow the commands that Moses and Joshua felt they received from God about killing women, children, livestock, etc. Moses and Joshua, claiming to hear from God, said, "Kill your neighbors." Jesus said, "Love your neighbors." It is quite a change. So either God changed his mind about how his people should treat their neighbors or human understanding of God has progressed.

 

[Martinius]

...I have thought deeply about spirituality since then and have come up with a series of questions that disturb me and even though I really want to love God and respect my Christian heritage it is so hard.

So here is where I presently sit and then I will list some reasons.

I believe that God exists and that the various faiths of the world are manifestations of God that makes sense in the culture, place and time for the people involved.

Agreed. There are many Christian Theologians who have said that.

I believe that Jesus and God and the Holy spirit appear to people around the globe in the way they need to appear

Yes, how people perceive Jesus, and how they picture him, varies greatly around the world. The same with our perceptions of how the Holy Spirit works among us and within us.

I believe in the power of prayer

I believe in free will

I believe in the fact that god may not send anyone to hell permanently, but make them feel guilt for their sins until they are cleansed.

I would tend to agree with that view; it makes sense in relation to what Jesus said and did, and why.

I also am prochoice and pro-gay marriage. You are allowed disagree I am not promoting it either way. I banged my head against the wall way too long on those two issues. I just gave it up to god and said this is what I believe and I just can't do otherwise it’s not in my nature.

Every person must make his/her own choices and decisions and will be accountable only to God for them. We are clearly instructed not to judge others, and that is one grace that I work on each and every day.

This is simply a beginning of my thoughts but that is the crux of it.

Good beginning.

Questions I have:

If God and Jesus and the HS are one in the same. How do I negotiate the amount of death God orders in the OT with Jesus? We're talking about the death of whole civilizations here. Death of children all over Rome when Jesus is born, and the death of children in civilizations that worshipped the wrong god. It breaks my heart. Today we would call something like that genocide.

Several posters (Trek4fr, Hedrick, Episcoboi, Rayodeluz) have already commented and I would concur with them. Basically, I see the OT books as a record of how people of particular times, places and cultures developed an understanding of God. In the early part of the Bible, God is a national deity, who protects, defends and commands His people, the Israelites. Some of those commands include doing some very nasty things which contradict what God is reported to have commanded elsewhere. This is not a contradiction by God, but different ways of viewing and understanding God by different people, at different times, with different agendas.

How do I negotiate suffering in today's world? The example I can think of most clearly is the recent death of my friend's husband. If God can foresee all, change all, stop all, or control all. Why on earth take my friends husband in his prime with three children under ten. What is the logic?

How do we reconcile "free will" with God having total control, and how can God cause suffering? My conclusion is that God does not cause suffering, nor does God control our lives or what happens to us. Our lives are a combination of the freedom to choose how we will act along with a big portion of natural patterns and randomness. Suffering, unexpected death and destruction, natural disasters, disease and accidents are all part of the randomness of life and have causes that are identifiable. God does not directly ordain or cause each and every broken leg, case of chicken pox or car accident. The concept of a divinity or divinities being a direct cause of natural (and even humanly-caused) events is a leftover from the time when people explained anything they didn't understand or couldn't control by invoking the work of spirits and gods.

How do I negotiate the great commission with my pluralistic worldview? Why is it that the evangelical church feels compelled to preach to Catholics?

There is a huge difference between bringing Christ to others and trying to convert them to a specific faith system or trying to culturally "westernize" their beliefs. As much as the latter has been tried, the results have usually been failure. Christianity has been in India since the days of the Apostles; how many Indians are Christian? Around 2.5%! You go about following God's commands by being Christ for others and seeing Jesus in everyone you meet, even the Hindu or the atheist. You show people what it means to be a Christian, not by spouting words of doctrines and creeds, but by living according to the teachings and example of Jesus. Conversion occurs in the mind, heart and soul, not simply by immersing someone in water or having them recite an oath. We know from experience that many who become "Christian" in those ways without really knowing and accepting the Gospel are Christian in name only. The same unfortunately applies to many "cradle Christians" in our own society.

How do we justify the rampant atheism that exists in our 21st century world? Why give us such critically thinking minds at all when we are bound to see the universe as random if given enough slack.

I see the universe as spectacularly random and at the same time a majestically immense place that is God's creation. And we have minds that allow us human beings, unlike any other living thing we know, to study, contemplate and strive to understand it. Of everything that I observe around me, the ability to rationally think and explore the world beyond our immediate visible surroundings is the one thing I will ascribe to the hand of God. And it is invisible.

Atheism is not new, but is somewhat unique to our Western culture. A Catholic theologian and scholar pointed out that atheism is literally a by-product of Christianity. You will find few atheists in Islamic or Hindu countries, few in Asia or Africa. We in America and Europe are the seedbed for atheism. But that is not a failure of Christianity, but rather a failure of people to truly BE Christian.

This all makes me so shaky in my faith.

Thank you for reading and feel free to comment on some or all.

I don't mean to be flippant, but if your faith is shaky it may be "misplaced". Meaning you should consider who and what you place your faith in. Is it a church, a doctrine, a minister or priest, a book, a creed, a ritual, a sacrament, prayer, or what? Consider what Jesus says is essential to being his follower, and you will find it is none of those (or at least none of those by themselves).

Overall, with your doubts and "shaky" faith, it seems to me you are far ahead of most others, even those who claim to know all truth when it comes to their faith. To doubt and question, if it leads to study and contemplation and eventually to the opening of the heart and mind to the wonder of God, is a very good thing. I have had a "shaky" faith for a half century, yet feel that it is stronger today than ever before. Some of that strength has come from having to deal with various challenges to my faith and understanding, and also from finding others, whether great thinkers and theologians or people on this forum, who have doubts, questions and ideas that are similar to mine.

Peace and blessings in your quest for faith and understanding.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

O do not want to justify killing in the name of God. As far as i can go is to say god is the logician of creation. I think we ate from and are on the forbidden tree of evolutionary development. Thus deleterious historical mutations as it were will happen. The deathvwe see, the suffering, is the result of mutation from original state of grace. Hopefully christ tthe living vine will.put things right.

 

[ajf777]

God may or may not change. But our human understandings of God certainly do. Ancient Israel understood God to be a deity to lead them into war and give them the victory over neighboring nations. Some of this theology still lingers today. But we don't follow the commands that Moses and Joshua felt they received from God about killing women, children, livestock, etc. Moses and Joshua, claiming to hear from God, said, "Kill your neighbors." Jesus said, "Love your neighbors." It is quite a change. So either God changed his mind about how his people should treat their neighbors or human understanding of God has progressed.

If you were took look back at these passages you would find that these are examples of judgement on wicked nations.The Caananites for instance practiced child sacrifice,inappropriate behavior with animals,incest,ect.God gave them time to repent and when they didn't,He judged their wickedness.These mandates were specific and were only to be applied in these situations.

 

[canadianian]

First of all many thanks for your thoughts and ideas. I have found your perspectives fascinating. Allow me to comment in reverse order

Martinius you ask who or in what it is that I place my faith. I place my faith in God and in humanities innate desire to be connected. I think that we are at a crossroads of human history where we need to learn to have a global community. We need to see others as part of our self as global citizens.

In regards to the OT acting as a historical account of the Israelites I couldn't agree more. When I was in Bible College I ask plenty of hard questions much like I am asking on this forum. I believe that the historical books of the OT and the old law was the way of this group to differentiate themselves from Egypt. That much said if calling on the name of God in times of war is what is represented in the OT then this damages credibility deeply. In the psalms God is loving , in solomons songs God is even erotic. This is why te violence is so detestable to me. That isn't the God I want.


In terms of the free will discussion. I have often struggled with this question. If God is the orchestrator of all things then free will is lost. I have also often seen it as a giant tournament tr5ee where God knows the outcomes of all our options, but doe not know what we will choose.

In terms of the GC I have often believed in loving others in a Christ like way. Living as an example of Love your neighbor as yourself and Love your God. Further and linking back to the first one if this is the greatest commandment which is a "deep affection Bond" with another human being then this ca easily be done by being any faith. Christian or not. Loving God is one thing but making that love for only the Christian God is another. If there truly is only the one God then how is it that the various faiths are not simply manifestations of this one Gods way of revealing himself to all.?

I have been exploring churches the last few weeks in search of a spiritual home. I have attended a Universalist Unitarian church, a mennonite church and next week I will be going to see a Centre for Spiritual Living (which grows out of the transcendentialist movement of Ralph Waldo Emerson and Henry David Thoreau). The last of that group is warming to me since it seeks God in a plurlistic mindset, but admits that the idea God's nonexistense is off the table. It also most closely relates to my beliefs outlined in the OP.

 

[PeaceGiver]

The Lord says this;

"By your words you'll be forgiven or by your words you'll be condemned."

"The man who wants to come to me will hear my words and put them to use."

"The words I spoke to you are spirit and life."

"Genuine worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth"

"The Lord is near to everyone who calls upon Him, who calls on Him in truth."

"Father your word is truth."

"Speak the truth to one another"

'Walk in the light once you have it or darkness will come over you.

I am the light of the world, no one who believes in me shall ever walk in darkness because He will possess the light of life.

I am the way ,the truth and the life, no one comes to the Lord except by me.

 

[canadianian]

Peacegiver. No disrespect, but what is your goal with that post?

 

[PeaceGiver]

Peacegiver. No disrespect, but what is your goal with that post?

The reason I was born and came into the world is to testify the truth, whether one accepts it or not. Not to interpret it for them because the word is revealed to those whom God has deemed worthy, to those who keep His ways and walk in His paths.

No one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and spirit.

 

[canadianian]

Peacegiver. I am still not sure what you are getting at. Is your point that my contemplation of the potential of pluralism or being pro-choice is divergent from the word? I appreciate you as an evangelist who is called to witness to the truth. I respect that and celebrate it with you. I've been there, I've done that and in all honesty it made me sick to my stomach to try to change people's fundamental underpinning of morality and divine life. I've been in your shoes.

I walked the other way when my church I was attending asked me to protest outside the women's hospital in my city in order to protest abortion and protest the pride parade because it was against the word of God. I couldn't do it then and I can't do it now. Love your neighbor as yourself..protests like that aren't love that is hate disguised as political rhetoric.

I'm not starting a debate on whether it is right or wrong. I simply can't justify causing socio-emotional pain to women for whom abortion is already a tough choice and to people who love who they love.

Feel free to continue commenting or not. In either case God Bless you in witnessing your truth and may it fill your heart with joy daily.