Why I don't do Christmas

[Lisa*Lisa]

cyberlizard: In this, you are absolutely correct. There are verses, especially Jeremiah 10:1-4, that have been MISused in this fashion. Here, and in other places like it, the "trees" are clearly being fashioned into idols that are overlaid with either silver or gold and, in no way, is a Christmas tree being described.

I believe 100% that verse can be related to christmas trees of today.

 

[Lisa*Lisa]

God has always had times of fasting and feasting, and the Church has continued this.

Yes, GOD did, and the holidays of the world today are not those. Do your own research and educate yourself on this topic if you want to know the truth.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

Wrong! Christmas is in fact an ancient pagan holiday. I'm stating a fact, not an opinion. It was not a personal insult twords that poster, like the other post was, fact and personal insult are not the same thing.

Learn to separate the two and see the difference. Fact is not a personal insult.

Even if one accepts your unstated, unproved premise that Christmas celebrations have pagan origins- this is not the same as saying that Christmas itself is an ancient pagan holiday.

There was not ancient pagan holiday that celebrated the bith of Jesus the Messiah.

Perhaps your notion of what constitutes "fact" requires adjustment.


The works of the redactors that you have read do not constitute "facts." Often they are idle speculations of persons possessed with rabid hatred of all things Catholic.

 

[Lisa*Lisa]

The works of the redactors that you have read do not constitute "facts." Often they are idle speculations of persons possessed with rabid hatred of all things Catholic.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's the funniest thing I've read in a long long time! Thanks for the laugh!!!!!

I guess this thread is for "entertainment purposes only".

 

[Ih8s8n]

God has always had times of fasting and feasting, and the Church has continued this. If some Christians want to cut out all the feasting days, I guess that is their right. Evidently to celebrate anything is "pagan".

katherine2001: Your response actually made me laugh...for all the wrong reasons. Where, exactly, is this "feast" of Christmas IN SCRIPTURE. Good luck with that one. God DID institute certain feasts that were meant to foreshadow events that would ultimately be fulfilled by Christ at either His first or second coming. For example, Jesus was crucified on the Jewish feast of Passover, when He became "the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world". Also, Christ was raised from the dead on the Jewish feast of Firstfruits and He poured out the Holy Spirit on the Jewish feast of Pentecost. The next ordained feast to be fulfilled will be the feast of Trumpets, when Christ returns with "a great sound of a trump". These feasts, and their consequent fulfillment, all have a basis IN SCRIPTURE as they were instituted by God Himself. In stark contrast, your pagan festival of "Christmas" is just that...PAGAN. Have proof to the contrary? I have plenty of proof at my disposal to back what I've said. Anyhow, what amazes me (not really, when one considers either the backslidden or lukewarm condition of many professing "believers") is this:

I've had similar discussions, with corresponding evidence being given, with many atheists and agnostics over the years and they, having examined the evidence, all come to the same exact conclusion that I've come to...Christmas is a PAGAN "holiday/holy day". Conversely, almost every single professing "Christian" that I've had the same exact discussions with, with corresponding evidence being given (and I'm prepared to give much evidence), kicks and screams and clings to their paganism. Whatever...

 

[pgp_protector]

I always thought the "War On Christmas" was supposed to come from the "anti-Christain" world.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Christmas trees have as much to do with the birth of Christ, as easter eggs do with the crucifixion.

I'd say that it's a problem if the gift giving and decorations become all important, but you can give presents to your loved ones, and still worship Christ, they do not conflict.

I do so enjoy these periodic "the evils of "X" holiday threads though... It's at least predictable.

 

[Big Drew]

1. The first Christmas tree was found in the garden.

2. Christmas is a form of idolatry.

3. Christmas is closely associated with paganism.

4. Satan uses Christmas as a force of evil.

5. The Bible doesn’t support doing Christmas.

6. The origin of Hanukkah threw the Christmas tree out of the temple.

7. When you put a clean thing with an unclean thing, you get dirty.

You're funny.

 

[Ih8s8n]

cyberlizard: In this, you are absolutely correct. There are verses, especially Jeremiah 10:1-4, that have been MISused in this fashion. Here, and in other places like it, the "trees" are clearly being fashioned into idols that are overlaid with either silver or gold and, in no way, is a Christmas tree being described.

I believe 100% that verse can be related to christmas trees of today.

Lisa*Lisa: First of all, like you, I recognize (and act accordingly) that Christmas is totally pagan, not only in origin, but also in practice (no matter how much people try to "Christianize" it). However, there is absolutely no need to "twist" certain verses of scripture to try to prove this already well documented fact. Let's examine the verses from Jeremiah and see what they actually say, shall we?

"Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel: Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them, for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good." (Jeremiah 10:1-5)

I quoted Jeremiah 10:1-5, even though my last reference was only through verse 4. I added this verse so that we can get a better idea of exactly what is being said. The popular (false) argument goes something like this:

"See! It's a Christmas tree that's being described. It's decked with silver and gold..."

Sorry, but under examination, this explanation simply doesn't have any merit to it whatsoever. Let's compare what Jeremiah said to what is stated elsewhere in scripture along these same lines. Jeremiah says that it's a "tree" that is "decked with silver and gold" and "fastened with nails and with hammers, that it move not" and that it "must needs be borne" or carried and that it "speaks not" and that it "cannot do either good or evil". Along these same lines, IN REFERENCE TO GRAVEN IMAGES OR IDOLS, Isaiah says:

"To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him? The workman melteth a graven image, and the goldsmith spreadeth it over with gold, and casteth silver chains. He that is so impoverished that he hath no oblation chooseth a tree that will not rot; he seeketh unto him a cunning workman to prepare a graven image, that shall not be moved." (Isaiah 40:18-20)

A GRAVEN IMAGE that is spread over with gold and has silver chains. A GRAVEN IMAGE that is made out of wood and that shall not be moved. It's the same exact thing being described and it's NOT a Christmas tree by any stretch of the imagination. Isaiah continued:

"So the carpenter encouraged the goldsmith, and he that smootheth with the hammer him that smote the anvil, saying, It is ready for the soldering: and he fastened it with nails, that it should not be moved." (Isaiah 41:7)

Again, it is A GRAVEN IMAGE that is clearly being described. The carpenter, the one who works with wood, encourages the goldsmith to overlay his GRAVEN IMAGE with gold and then, once again, it is fastened with nails, that it should not be moved. Jeremiah also said of the GRAVEN IMAGE that it "speaks not", "that it must needs be borne" or carried and that it "cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good". Elsewhere in scripture, we have these SAME EXACT THINGS being stated of GRAVEN IMAGES. In fact, continuing on just a little bit further in Isaiah, in relation to these same GRAVEN IMAGES, we read:

"Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together. Behold, ye are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you." (Isaiah 41:23-24)

As Jeremiah said and as is echoed here by Isaiah, these GRAVEN IMAGES cannot do either good or evil. These are NOT Christmas trees that are being described. Isaiah, under Divine inspiration, also said:

"To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like? They lavish gold out of the bag, and weigh silver in the balance, and hire a goldsmith; and he maketh it a god: they fall down, yea, they worship. They bear him upon the shoulder, they carry him, and set him in his place, and he standeth; from his place shall he not remove: yea, one shall cry unto him, yet can he not answer, nor save him out of his trouble." (Isaiah 46:5-7)

Once more, in reference to GRAVEN IMAGES, we see the same exact gold, silver, inability to speak, standing in its place and necessity to be borne upon the shoulder or carried. Jeremiah was clearly speaking about GRAVEN IMAGES and NOT Christmas trees.

"Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not: They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not: They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat. They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them." (Psalm 115:4-8)

Like Jeremiah said, these IDOLS or GRAVEN IMAGES contain silver and gold and they speak not, nor do they walk...which is exactly why Jeremiah stated that they must be borne or carried by others.

"What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols? Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach! Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it." (Habakkuk 2:18-19)

Yet again, as Jeremiah said, these GRAVEN IMAGES or DUMB (they cannot speak) IDOLS that are overlaid with gold and silver cannot speak nor arise and teach. Also, we once again see mention of "him that saith to the wood" in reference to these same GRAVEN IMAGES or DUMB IDOLS. Like I said, Jeremiah wasn't talking about Christmas trees in any way, shape or form. Hopefully, with such facts before you, you'll alter this aspect of your beliefs accordingly.

Take care.

 

[Ih8s8n]

I always thought the "War On Christmas" was supposed to come from the "anti-Christian" world.

pgp protector: No, that's exactly where "Christmas" itself comes from...the "anti-Christian" world. You've got things backwards...

 

[Eph4:26]

tturt . . . thank you for your thoughtful reply. If I may comment further on your points . . .

. . . God made trees and some people chose to worship the created and not the Creator.

Keeping in the context of the Bible, I would restate this as 'God made trees and most people . . . worship the created (themselves) and not the Creator.

. . . "Jesus, the reason for the season" can be displayed and get most everyone's attention. I consider it an evangelistic opportunity.

IMHO, 'the season' is, was, and always will be pagan. Jesus does not need a pagan holiday at the end of the year to get His Elect Family's attention. He has a more effective means for communicating to His people -- the Holy Spirit. In addition, Paul teaches that we are to preach the gospel in and out of season. 2 Tim 4:2-4

 

[Eph4:26]

. . . For me, for a whole host of reasons, I abandoned the celebration of Christmas many years ago as it really has nothing to do with Christ whatsoever. Haven't missed it in the least.

It is a great benefit to me to know that there are others that share my views on Christmas.

 

[Eph4:26]

. . . I don't participate in the ancient pagan holiday "christmas" and I"m a very happy soul that makes that choice for God.

Thank You*Thank You

 

[Eph4:26]

Why does it matter if (Christmas) has pagan origins

1. Exodus Ch. 32.
2. 1 Kings 11
3. 2 Chronicles 11:13-23
4. The Book of Jeremiah
5. Revelation Ch. 2 and 3

1. Moses leads the people out of Egypt. Ten days later, he goes up to Mount Sinai and receives the Law. What do the people do in his absense? They get scared and demand from Aaron (Moses brother) that he make a pagan idol to protect them. When Moses returns to the people, how does God react, He kills those that turned from Him to the golden calf. For the naysayers that say, "Oh, but that was a specific event only relevent to Moses". If so, why was it important enough for the story to be retold in Acts 7:30-41?

2. God split Israel into two because Soloman's interest in pagan women.

3. The Levites (priesthood) fled Northern Israel for Jerusalem because King Jeroboam allowed pagan idolatry to spread.

4. Jeremiah was a prophet of doom. He repeatedly says that because the Jews had allowed paganism to creep in that God was going to destroy them for it and lead them into captivity. He did!

5. John reprimands the seven church's of Asia for mixing the Truth of Christ with the lie of paganism.

Taking pagan rituals and cleaning them up and calling them christian does not work in alleviating confusion amongst the general population. The general population doesn't want to hear about denying self, they want to fulfill self.

Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? Not one.

 

[Eph4:26]

I agree. If people choose not to celebrate Christmas, that is their right. However, they do not have the right to tell the rest of us what to do. . . .

See Post #3

 

[Chesterton]

I always thought the "War On Christmas" was supposed to come from the "anti-Christain" world.

You said a mouthful.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's the funniest thing I've read in a long long time! Thanks for the laugh!!!!!

I guess this thread is for "entertainment purposes only".

no, this thread also serves as a repository for unsubstantiated assertions, such as the ones you've made. Rebuttal?

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

I always thought the "War On Christmas" was supposed to come from the "anti-Christain" world.

It does, as far as I can tell.

 

[Lisa*Lisa]

Lisa*Lisa: First of all, like you, I recognize (and act accordingly) that Christmas is totally pagan, not only in origin, but also in practice (no matter how much people try to "Christianize" it). However, there is absolutely no need to "twist" certain verses of scripture to try to prove this already well documented fact. Let's examine the verses from Jeremiah and see what they actually say, shall we?

"Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel: Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them, for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good." (Jeremiah 10:1-5)

I quoted Jeremiah 10:1-5, even though my last reference was only through verse 4. I added this verse so that we can get a better idea of exactly what is being said. The popular (false) argument goes something like this:

"See! It's a Christmas tree that's being described. It's decked with silver and gold..."

Sorry, but under examination, this explanation simply doesn't have any merit to it whatsoever. Let's compare what Jeremiah said to what is stated elsewhere in scripture along these same lines. Jeremiah says that it's a "tree" that is "decked with silver and gold" and "fastened with nails and with hammers, that it move not" and that it "must needs be borne" or carried and that it "speaks not" and that it "cannot do either good or evil". Along these same lines, IN REFERENCE TO GRAVEN IMAGES OR IDOLS, Isaiah says:

"To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him? The workman melteth a graven image, and the goldsmith spreadeth it over with gold, and casteth silver chains. He that is so impoverished that he hath no oblation chooseth a tree that will not rot; he seeketh unto him a cunning workman to prepare a graven image, that shall not be moved." (Isaiah 40:18-20)

A GRAVEN IMAGE that is spread over with gold and has silver chains. A GRAVEN IMAGE that is made out of wood and that shall not be moved. It's the same exact thing being described and it's NOT a Christmas tree by any stretch of the imagination. Isaiah continued:

"So the carpenter encouraged the goldsmith, and he that smootheth with the hammer him that smote the anvil, saying, It is ready for the soldering: and he fastened it with nails, that it should not be moved." (Isaiah 41:7)

Again, it is A GRAVEN IMAGE that is clearly being described. The carpenter, the one who works with wood, encourages the goldsmith to overlay his GRAVEN IMAGE with gold and then, once again, it is fastened with nails, that it should not be moved. Jeremiah also said of the GRAVEN IMAGE that it "speaks not", "that it must needs be borne" or carried and that it "cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good". Elsewhere in scripture, we have these SAME EXACT THINGS being stated of GRAVEN IMAGES. In fact, continuing on just a little bit further in Isaiah, in relation to these same GRAVEN IMAGES, we read:

"Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together. Behold, ye are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you." (Isaiah 41:23-24)

As Jeremiah said and as is echoed here by Isaiah, these GRAVEN IMAGES cannot do either good or evil. These are NOT Christmas trees that are being described. Isaiah, under Divine inspiration, also said:

"To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like? They lavish gold out of the bag, and weigh silver in the balance, and hire a goldsmith; and he maketh it a god: they fall down, yea, they worship. They bear him upon the shoulder, they carry him, and set him in his place, and he standeth; from his place shall he not remove: yea, one shall cry unto him, yet can he not answer, nor save him out of his trouble." (Isaiah 46:5-7)

Once more, in reference to GRAVEN IMAGES, we see the same exact gold, silver, inability to speak, standing in its place and necessity to be borne upon the shoulder or carried. Jeremiah was clearly speaking about GRAVEN IMAGES and NOT Christmas trees.

"Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not: They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not: They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat. They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them." (Psalm 115:4-8)

Like Jeremiah said, these IDOLS or GRAVEN IMAGES contain silver and gold and they speak not, nor do they walk...which is exactly why Jeremiah stated that they must be borne or carried by others.

"What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols? Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach! Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it." (Habakkuk 2:18-19)

Yet again, as Jeremiah said, these GRAVEN IMAGES or DUMB (they cannot speak) IDOLS that are overlaid with gold and silver cannot speak nor arise and teach. Also, we once again see mention of "him that saith to the wood" in reference to these same GRAVEN IMAGES or DUMB IDOLS. Like I said, Jeremiah wasn't talking about Christmas trees in any way, shape or form. Hopefully, with such facts before you, you'll alter this aspect of your beliefs accordingly.

Take care.

I like you too, but I"m sticking with my belief that christmas trees are pagan, disgusting, and filthy things and I believe that the Bible is clear on not touching these pagan things.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I like you too, but I"m sticking with my belief that christmas trees are pagan, disgusting, and filthy things and I believe that the Bible is clear on not touching these pagan things.

Don't let the chain store retailers hear ya say that

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