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I really dont want to get too involved in this because I see unless a response is done quickly some posts get lost in the thread unanswered and I really dont have the time to hang around. I Just came back to veiw this thread and I see free will as oppossed to predetermined is still being debated. It seems there are many perspectives on this, and honesly one can not really prove withut a doubt one or the other. If we consider time and God. Through His Word we see God is not restricted to operating in the realm of time. God inhabits all aspects of time, past, present and future. This is a difficult concept to understand and it brings me back to His Word. If God has predetermined all our choices then how can He love us unconditionally? We know have conditions. Without faith it is impossible to please God. What does faith mean then? There are so many more problems if God has programmed our every action that most all of His Word would then make no sense. He is now an accessory to every sin. What god is this?
So are you saying that when god created us and he knew before creating us and the tree that it would cause first sin that it was an accident?You are claiming that God knowing our future means God determined our future, but you haven’t demonstrated how this is so; you are just claiming it to be so.
How can you have free will with regard to fate?
This does not deny the man a free-will, nor does it deny me a free-will. All it does is to create circumstances that lead to my death. Both the man and I still had the freedom to choose to accept God or to reject Him.
Regardless he is responsible for me being christian or not, as he created things they way they were created and knew all outcomes. Thus I cannot be sent to hell by a loving god. Unless your saying god is not loving?If your analogy says what you are trying to make it say, then God would know who to “bump into” in order to create the long chain of events that would lead to you becoming a Christian. The reason you are not a Christian is because you freely chose not to be one, and God is not forcing you to be one. To force you to be a Christian would defeat God's own purpose of creating you in His own image.
Again, to know is not to determine, especially when free-will is involved.
the illusion of free will. You cannot preform any single action outside of fate. Thus you have not made your choices. You simply feel you have made these choices when it has all been decided by fate. You really dont mind living an illusion do you?
With only a single possible outcome when god created the world he is responsible for that outcome as he created the world in such a way that the outcome would occur, and did so knowingly.God is indeed responsible for creating the world, but He is not responsible for creating it as it is; man is responsible for creating it as it is by freely choosing to sin
God puts a baby in a bath tub that is quickly filling with water? is it is fault that the baby will drown? It is no different then if he put the baby in a situation with the appearance of two outcomes when only one outcome is possible.
I think you are the one who really didn’t think it through.
This is why a lot of people are atheists. The implications are extreme and unsettling, and I don't think you can remove these implications if you want to have an all-knowing, all-powerful God. It's a combo meal. If you want all-knowing and all-powerful, you get determinism - or at least God being responsible, ultimately, for who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell.
You have not demonstrated how there is only one possible outcome. You simply claimed that God knows the outcome. How does knowing the outcome mean that there is only one possible outcome?With only a single possible outcome when god created the world he is responsible for that outcome as he created the world in such a way that the outcome would occur, and did so knowingly.
I am afraid I cannot get you to see from my point of view. I do however understand somewhat your view but it makes no sense to me in light of God's Word. In other words we are a computer program that God has programmed and we will sin because God programmed us to. Sleep, eat, and everything else because God programmed us to. Just robots living, moving and having our being with every movement, thought and choice pre-programmed by God. If that is the god you percieve then I understand your atheism. I would not serve a god like that either. His Spirit then becomes redundant.
I do believe God is the ultimate Judge and will decide who goes to heaven or hell. But it is "our" life choices which certainly can be and are influenced by God and others that will determine His final judgement on us.
Hoping that someone else might be able to provide some insight on this subject. (we might get all sorts, lol) I started a thread here .
Good question!How does knowing the outcome mean that there is only one possible outcome?
You have not demonstrated how there is only one possible outcome. You simply claimed that God knows the outcome. How does knowing the outcome mean that there is only one possible outcome?
You would expect an omniscient God to know all possible outcomes. Does this mean all possible outcomes are determined?
Good question!
Let's say God didn't know the outcome -- would that change anything?
One baseless claim after another.If you want all-knowing and all-powerful, you get determinism - or at least God being responsible, ultimately, for who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell.
Would it change the outcome though?If God didn't know the outcome, anything could happen. If God knows the outcome, only that can happen.
If God didn't know the outcome there would still be one outcome.If God didn't know the outcome, anything could happen. If God knows the outcome, only that can happen.
One baseless claim after another.
You are seeking to describe the God of the Bible, but there is nothing in the Bible to support your claims. Therefore you are not describing the God of the Bible. And since there is only the God of the Bible, then you are not describing any God at all.
No, but all possible outcomes may be known.
The claim I am addressing is "to know is to determine."
Well then you are not talking about God.I don't have to pander to your book to make a philosophical point. I'm not just talking about your religion - I'm making a broad, sweeping statement about all theistic religions that believe their God is all-knowing and all-powerful, and sends non-believers to hell.
Well then you are not talking about God.You guys are the ones claiming that God is all-knowing. I shouldn't need to use the Bible to extrapolate what follows from that statement.
Do you think an all-powerful God subscribes to your logic? He doesn't.It's called "logic"...we use it to discuss the conclusions of premises.
That's your logic, not God's.God creates, knowing full well what will happen. I became an atheist, and God knew that I would. But he made me anyway. He made me knowing full well that I would reject him, so he made me simply to allow me to reject him and then he will torture me for eternity.
Well then you are not talking about God.
Well then you are not talking about God.
Do you think an all-powerful God subscribes to your logic? He doesn't.
That's your logic, not God's.
No sir, you were not born evangelical. You were presumaly born in an evangelical family and raised that way, but you were not born evangelical.I have not seen any way to fix the conundrum. That's one big reason why I became an atheist (I was born and raised evangelical).
No sir. He didn't make you. Some may claim that, the ones wxho claim there is a god. But as there is no god, he didn't make you.God creates, knowing full well what will happen. I became an atheist, and God knew that I would. But he made me anyway. He made me knowing full well that I would reject him, so he made me simply to allow me to reject him and then he will torture me for eternity.
You're saying God made him then?But as there is no god, he didn't make you.
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