Why I dislike Calvinism

[ToBeLoved]

Ask and you shall receive, knock and the door shall be opened, seek and you will find. Yes no one comes to Jesus unless The Father has sent them but God doesn’t send them until they seek or ask. I used to believe in OSAS until someone pointed out Hebrews 6

“For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come— and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-6‬ ‭NLT‬‬

This is a pretty clear contradiction of OSAS.

Hebrews 6 could be every sinner.

Who turn away from God. That’s all of us

 

[BNR32FAN]

We must also accept the verse following John 6:44, about only those the Father has sent. v.45 says that all have been taught by God, and those who listened and learned come to Jesus. iow, they paid attention in class and believed what they were taught.


There is nothing in this passage about losing salvation.

In fact, Jesus was real clear about eternal security.

First, He taught in John 5:24 and 6:47 those who believe in Him HAVE (as in present possession) eternal life.

Then, in John 10:28, He taught that He gives them (believers) eternal life, and they shall never perish.

So, since those who believe are given eternal life, and Jesus stated that those given eternal life shall never perish, how can one lose eternal life?


Nothing in the Bible contradicts Jesus' clear teaching of eternal security.

When any verse seems to contradict what Jesus plainly stated in John 5:24 and 10:28, the verse obviously isn't contradicting Jesus. It's just the reader's failure to rightly divide the word of truth with the verse that they think "seems" to contradict eternal life, which Jesus taught clearly.

Are you saying we can turn away from God and not lose our salvation?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Are you saying we can turn away from God and not lose our salvation?

Does God’s Holy Spirit leave us when are salvation is lost?

 

[FreeGrace2]

The arrogance are those who hate Gods gospel of grace.

As I pointed out, Calvinism doesn't even understand God's grace. God never chose who would believe, which is the foundation underneath point 2 of TULIP.

All those ordained to eternal life will believe upon hearing the gospel as Acts 13:48 says.

Ha. That verse says nothing of what you claim. First, the word "ordained" is 'tasso' and means to line up, as in a military organization. The word occurs 8 times in the NT, 6 by Luke alone. And none of the other 7 are translated 'ordain' or 'appointed'.

Second, the particular form of the verb is the same for both the middle and passive voice. Calvinists insist the voice is passive, as though God is doing the 'tasso'. But the context shows that the voice is middle; the Gentiles lined themselves up to hear Paul.

So, what is in the context to make this conclusion? v.44 - On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord.

So, it's clear from that verse just how interested nearly the whole city was in what Paul had to say.

And Luke contrasts through quoting Paul between the unbelieving Jews, who "considered themselves unworthy of eternal life" with the very interested Gentiles, who "lined up for eternal life". They not only wanted to hear what Paul preached, but they believed it.

I know this is in opposition to Calvinism, but when a verb form can be understood in 2 different ways (i.e. - middle vs passive voice), one must determine which voice from the context. And the context clearly favors the middle voice.

Pelagians promote self worship and works righteousness and is why they can’t see the truth in that verse.

So, freedom to believe is now "self worship"? And "works righteousness"? Really?

You're sadly mistaken. Those charges belong to the Pharisees. A far cry from what I believe.

[Staff edit].

The problem with Calvinism is its failure to rightly divide the word of truth.

No verses teach that man is unable to believe unless regenerated.
No verses teach that Christ died only for some. Regardless of what you call them.
No verses teach that God elects people for salvation unconditionally.
No verses teach that all saints persevere in the faith. Jesus taught the opposite in the parable of the soils.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Are you saying we can turn away from God and not lose our salvation?

I'll ask you a question.

Do you believe what Jesus plainly said in John 5:24 about the present possession of eternal life on the basis of believing, and John 10:28, that those given eternal life shall NEVER perish?

If you don't believe either of these verses, we have nothing else to discuss.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Hebrews 6 could be every sinner.

Who turn away from God. That’s all of us

So by your understanding Paul is saying it is impossible to bring anyone back to repentance? Because we have all sinned. So no that doesn’t fit what he is talking about. He is talking about someone who has become a Christian and turns away from God and chooses to live in sin.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I'll ask you a question.

Do you believe what Jesus plainly said in John 5:24 about the present possession of eternal life on the basis of believing, and John 10:28, that those given eternal life shall NEVER perish?

If you don't believe either of these verses, we have nothing else to discuss.

Yes they have eternal life as long as they keep their faith. Are you familiar with collosians 1:22-23?

“Yet now he has reconciled you to himself through the death of Christ in his physical body. As a result, he has brought you into his own presence, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault. But you must continue to believe this truth and stand firmly in it. Don’t drift away from the assurance you received when you heard the Good News.
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:22-23‬ ‭NLT‬‬

 

[ToBeLoved]

So by your understanding Paul is saying it is impossible to bring anyone back to repentance? Because we have all sinned. So no that doesn’t fit what he is talking about. He is talking about someone who has become a Christian and turns away from God and chooses to live in sin.

I’m not stating my belief. I’m asking you to clarify yours. On CF in conversation I have found that it is best to understand the other persons theology and then hold the conversation.

You said that verse disproves OSAS so I asked is that verse not every one of us

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yes they have eternal life as long as they keep their faith. Are you familiar with collosians 1:22-23?

“Yet now he has reconciled you to himself through the death of Christ in his physical body. As a result, he has brought you into his own presence, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault. But you must continue to believe this truth and stand firmly in it. Don’t drift away from the assurance you received when you heard the Good News.
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:22-23‬ ‭NLT‬‬

What is the extent of sentence 1? How is the person reconciled through ‘his physical body’?

 

[BNR32FAN]

What is the extent of sentence 1? How is the person reconciled through ‘his physical body’?

A person is reconciled with God by Jesus’s sacrifice which cleansed them of sins.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I’m not stating my belief. I’m asking you to clarify yours. On CF in conversation I have found that it is best to understand the other persons theology and then hold the conversation.

You said that verse disproves OSAS so I asked is that verse not every one of us

Yes but in my reply I explained that is not what the writer of Hebrews is discussing. Everyone sins yet we can still be reconciled to God. The author of Hebrews is discussing a situation where it is impossible to be reconciled to God which would be discussing a different situation. More of a situation of a permanent turning away which is also to sin against the Holy Spirit.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Calvinism contradicts free will and would ultimately make God responsible for everyone who does not believe. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son and whosoever He chooses to believe will have eternal life but those He doesn’t choose will burn for all eternity? That would mean those who weren’t chosen by God never had any choice or any chance for salvation.

 

[MDC]

Calvinism contradicts free will and would ultimately make God responsible for everyone who does not believe. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son and whosoever He chooses to believe will have eternal life but those He doesn’t choose will burn for all eternity? That would mean those who weren’t chosen by God never had any choice or any chance for salvation.

Gods Sovereign grace in salvation contradicts those who push the autonomy of the will and works righteousness. [Staff edit].

 

[BNR32FAN]

Gods Sovereign grace in salvation contradicts those who push the autonomy of the will and works righteousness.

That was completely over my head bro.

I have no clue what you meant lol.

 

[sdowney717]

You are right. The ‘us” are believers , as defined in 1:19 and only way you can be believers is if you are saved. So in another word “ those who are saved” chosen by God before the foundation of the world.


2 Thessalonians 2:13 : But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Yes Peter is writing to God's beloved elect who will inherit salvation, not to the unsaved He knows will never believe.
WHY would God wait patiently for those to repent whom He knows never will!

1 Peter 1New International Version (NIV)

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

It is for God's elect, for their sake that HE patiently waits for them to repent, and come to the faith, in His own timing for their life.

2 Timothy 2:9-11New International Version (NIV)

9 for which I am suffering even to the point of being chained like a criminal. But God’s word is not chained. 10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.

11 Here is a trustworthy saying:

If we died with him,
we will also live with him;

 

[sdowney717]

OF HIS OWN WILL HE BEGOT US AGAIN, not of our will, so that we would be a kind of first fruits.
It was His will that we be born of God, born again, not of our will. The wind blows where it wills, so are they who are born of the Spirit, according to His will and not our own.

James 1
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

 

[sdowney717]

You can not even see, perceive, know anything, about the kingdom of God unless you are first born again. Otherwise you are dead to spiritual truth which is in and about Christ and you have no spiritual life, no relationship whatsoever with the family of God.

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Remember Jesus only saves HIS PEOPLE from their sins as they are of God and in His family as brothers and are the children of God. Those are who he aids to salvation, God's very own elect. To them they have been granted to know the secrets of the kingdom.

John 6:65
And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

 

[sdowney717]

Mark 4:10-12New King James Version (NKJV)
The Purpose of Parables
10 But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. 11 And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God;

but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, 12 so that

‘Seeing they may see and not perceive,
And hearing they may hear and not understand;
Lest they should turn,
And their sins be forgiven them.’”

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes they have eternal life as long as they keep their faith.

Then you don't believe John 10:28. Jesus gave no conditions for recipients of eternal life. That verse SAYS all recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

It seems your view is in opposition to what Jesus taught.

Are you familiar with collosians 1:22-23?

“Yet now he has reconciled you to himself through the death of Christ in his physical body. As a result, he has brought you into his own presence, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault. But you must continue to believe this truth and stand firmly in it. Don’t drift away from the assurance you received when you heard the Good News.
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:22-23‬ ‭NLT‬‬

Very familiar. Of course all believers must continue to believe this truth. But where does this passage actually say that those who don't lose salvation? It doesn't.

And, if it did, it would be in direct opposition to what Jesus taught in John 10:28.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Then you don't believe John 10:28. Jesus gave no conditions for recipients of eternal life. That verse SAYS all recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

It seems your view is in opposition to what Jesus taught.


Very familiar. Of course all believers must continue to believe this truth. But where does this passage actually say that those who don't lose salvation? It doesn't.

And, if it did, it would be in direct opposition to what Jesus taught in John 10:28.

“But you must continue to believe this truth and stand firmly in it. Don’t drift away from the assurance you received when you heard the Good News.

There is a condition. You must continue to believe and stand firmly in your faith.

John 10:28 also has a condition when you look at verse 27.

“My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me,”
‭‭John‬ ‭10:27-28‬ ‭NLT

His sheep who listen to His voice and follow Him will never parish. What does Jesus mean by they follow me? He means they follow His teaching and obey. Colossians 1:22-23 affirms this by saying we MUST continue to believe and stand firmly in our faith. If there were no conditions then why did Paul say this? Paul is not contradicting Jesus he is reaffirming what Jesus said in John 10:28.