Why I dislike Calvinism

WordSword · Nov 10, 2017

My understanding of "predestination" does not mean God makes some believe and not others. It means He foreknows who will and will not choose to believe. One of the best examples I think is Rom 9:22: "vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction." To me this means God knew who would choose not to believe even while He was bringing them into this life.

The purpose of unbelievers--"to shew His wrath, and to make His power known" (v 22); purpose of believers--"that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy" (v 23).

ToBeLoved · Nov 10, 2017

WordSword said:
My understanding of "predestination" does not mean God makes some believe and not others. It means He foreknows who will and will not choose to believe. One of the best examples I think is Rom 9:22: "vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction." To me this means God knew who would choose not to believe even while He was bringing them into this life.

The purpose of unbelievers--"to shew His wrath, and to make His power known" (v 22); purpose of believers--"that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy" (v 23).

Some people cannot understand an omniscient God who knows all. In an effort to humanize God they have to create a point where the God who knows always, did not know. Which changes who God is.

WordSword · Nov 10, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
Some people cannot understand an omniscient God who knows all. In an effort to humanize God they have to create a point where the God who knows always, did not know. Which changes who God is.

Hi TB - I know what you mean, some may think He chooses "not to know" certain things! It's only when we seek truth that we find it!

Blessings!

ToBeLoved · Nov 10, 2017

WordSword said:
Hi TB - I know what you mean, some may think He chooses "not to know" certain things! It's only when we seek truth that we find it!

Blessings!

I know.

How could an 'all knowing' God choose not to know what He always has known.

Some people don't let God be God. They create some man-God hybrid they like that agree's with their theology, instead of letting God dictate the theology itself.

WordSword · Nov 10, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
I know.

How could an 'all knowing' God choose not to know what He always has known.

Some people don't let God be God. They create some man-God hybrid they like that agree's with their theology, instead of letting God dictate the theology itself.

Amen, if our present understanding leads us to conceive something that appears to contradict Scripture, then we must wait on God to reveal the truth of it. Understanding faith in Christ is what saves--the rest is for growth in Him--so we have all the time in the world to be patient.

Tiberius Lee · Nov 10, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
Some people cannot understand an omniscient God who knows all. In an effort to humanize God they have to create a point where the God who knows always, did not know. Which changes who God is.

I don’t think people misunderstand the “predestination” because they want to humanize God. I think people have hard time to grasp the concept of predestination and salvation by election because they think “ how can the most loving God elect people for damnation” . I have struggled many year with this .

ToBeLoved · Nov 10, 2017

Tiberius Lee said:
I don’t think people misunderstand the “predestination” because they want to humanize God. I think people have hard time to grasp the concept of predestination and salvation by election because they think “ how can the most loving God elect people for damnation” . I have struggled many year with this .

God knows all in advance. God knows how we will freely choose because God is not held to time and knows all always.

God doesn't elect anyone for hell. God just knows how they choose because He knows all things.

The saddest part is they believe God would ever damn anyone to hell that has not chosen it themselves.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 10, 2017

Tiberius Lee said:
You are right. The ‘us” are believers , as defined in 1:19 and only way you can be believers is if you are saved. So in another word “ those who are saved” chosen by God before the foundation of the world.

Again, the verse clearly does not say "chosen for salvation".

2 Thessalonians 2:13 : But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

The word for 'chosen' is unrelated to the word used for elected.

That word, "haireomai" occurs just 3 times in the NT, and none are translated "elected". From a Greek lexicon, the word means "to take, choose", per biblehub.com. It doesn't mean 'elected'.

Further, the verse tells us the basis upon which one is saved; through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

MDC · Nov 10, 2017

WordSword said:
My understanding of "predestination" does not mean God makes some believe and not others. It means He foreknows who will and will not choose to believe. One of the best examples I think is Rom 9:22: "vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction." To me this means God knew who would choose not to believe even while He was bringing them into this life.

The purpose of unbelievers--"to shew His wrath, and to make His power known" (v 22); purpose of believers--"that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy" (v 23).

And verses 11,16 of Romans 9 show why your opinion and understanding is clearly wrong. It’s the concept of Gods Sovereignty in salvation that makes the unregenerate natural man hate these truths that are being clearly taught throughout scripture

FreeGrace2 · Nov 11, 2017

MDC said:
And verses 11,16 of Romans 9 show why your opinion and understanding is clearly wrong. It’s the concept of Gods Sovereignty in salvation that makes the unregenerate natural man hate these truths that are being clearly taught throughout scripture

If true, then please explain Cornelius, who was NOT a saved man before Peter spoke to him and his household, per Acts 11:14.

As a not saved man, he was unregenerate, yet Acts 10 clearly portrays him as one who did recognize God as Creator and was thankful to Him, per Rom 1:19-21,

MDC · Nov 11, 2017

FreeGrace2 said:
If true, then please explain Cornelius, who was NOT a saved man before Peter spoke to him and his household, per Acts 11:14.

As a not saved man, he was unregenerate, yet Acts 10 clearly portrays him as one who did recognize God as Creator and was thankful to Him, per Rom 1:19-21,

There’s no if true, but is truth, which you refuse to believe. Many false religionists profess God to be creator so what.. but it is only God Alone who grants repentance unto life in Christ, as Acts 11:18 and Acts 13:48 states. Jew or gentile, it is God Alone who Sovereignly opens the hearts of sinners whom He has chosen to receive the gospel. [Staff edit].

BNR32FAN · Nov 11, 2017

rockytopva said:
I worked with three ladies in my factory making samples. These ladies were all Baptist, cheerful, decent, and I would not doubt if they were to tell me they were eternally saved, especially as I don't see it in their character. And this was also true of the old people in the Baptist church I was brought up in.

And then my generation came along.

In the Baptist church I was brought up in we had a large youth group and all the adults thought of them as angels and good saved Christians. That was until someone busted them in one of their dope smoking parties. I also met a lady who is in her fifties as well as I. This lady was Baptist, single, never married, and I thought we were the perfect fit... But the more that woman talked... Come to find out that she sees nothing wrong with the party or sex scene. I finally, after enduring much talk on carnality, said to her, "You know I don't believe you can do those things and get to heaven." Almost immediately she replies, "Are you trying to threaten my salvation?"

Of all the young people I know growing up not a one of them shows any fruit of Christianity. The matters of eternal significance are the furthest thing from their carnal mind. I believe that the Lord also takes issues with this...

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. - Revelation 3:5

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. - Mark 13:13

This is my main gripe against Calvinism, and that is it gives people a false sense of eternal security. This is a race to be run and not a destination at some point of doctrinal sense.

Paul was a terrible sinner who persecuted and killed Christians and later found The Lord and went on to do more than any of the apostles and wrote about half of the New Testament. So just because someone is living in sin now doesn’t mean they always will. I’m a terrible sinner.

ToBeLoved · Nov 11, 2017

MDC said:
There’s no if true, but is truth, which you refuse to believe. Many false religionists profess God to be creator so what.. but it is only God Alone who grants repentance unto life in Christ, as Acts 11:18 and Acts 13:48 states. Jew or gentile, it is God Alone who Sovereignly opens the hearts of sinners whom He has chosen to receive the gospel.

Guess you don’t want to answer the question, huh?

ToBeLoved · Nov 11, 2017

BNR32FAN said:
Paul was a terrible sinner who persecuted and killed Christians and later found The Lord and went on to do more than any of the apostles and wrote about half of the New Testament. So just because someone is living in sin now doesn’t mean they always will. I’m a terrible sinner.

Let’s also add that Saul was aPharisee teaching others how not to sin against God at the time. Irony

FreeGrace2 · Nov 11, 2017

I said:
"If true, then please explain Cornelius, who was NOT a saved man before Peter spoke to him and his household, per Acts 11:14.

As a not saved man, he was unregenerate, yet Acts 10 clearly portrays him as one who did recognize God as Creator and was thankful to Him, per Rom 1:19-21,"

MDC said:
There’s no if true, but is truth

OK. Then take the statement I responded to, which you assume to be truth, and then answer my request.

which you refuse to believe.

What I refuse to believe is any statement that does not line up with God's Word.

Many false religionists profess God to be creator so what

Right. So what. But the discussion wasn't about false religionists. It was about Cornelius, an unsaved man until Peter preached to him, per Act 11:14.

.. but it is only God Alone who grants repentance unto life in Christ, as Acts 11:18 and Acts 13:48 states.

Let's be clear. Granting repentance is a far cry from causing repentance. Let's not forget that.

Jew or gentile, it is God Alone who Sovereignly opens the hearts of sinners whom He has chosen to receive the gospel.

Please show any verse that teaches in plain language that God chooses who will believe. That's the thorn in the Calvinist's flesh. There arent any.

A truth that has not been revealed to you and all those who fight against this gospel of grace

This is pure arrogance, to suggest that you've been revealed biblical truth that I haven't been.

Calvinism is hardly the gospel of grace. Far from it. In that view, out of the entire human race, God capriciously eeny meeny miny mo'ed who he would choose to save by causing to believe.

Yet Scripture clearly states that pleases God; to save those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21.

The very idea that election to salvation is unconditional violates the clear teaching of Scripture; that those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved.

Believing on Christ is the condition for salvation. So throw out point 2 of TULIP.

While you're at it, throw out point 3, since 3 verses plainly teach that Christ died for all.

ToBeLoved · Nov 11, 2017

FreeGrace2 said:
I said:
"If true, then please explain Cornelius, who was NOT a saved man before Peter spoke to him and his household, per Acts 11:14.

As a not saved man, he was unregenerate, yet Acts 10 clearly portrays him as one who did recognize God as Creator and was thankful to Him, per Rom 1:19-21,"

OK. Then take the statement I responded to, which you assume to be truth, and then answer my request.

What I refuse to believe is any statement that does not line up with God's Word.

Right. So what. But the discussion wasn't about false religionists. It was about Cornelius, an unsaved man until Peter preached to him, per Act 11:14.

Let's be clear. Granting repentance is a far cry from causing repentance. Let's not forget that.

Please show any verse that teaches in plain language that God chooses who will believe. That's the thorn in the Calvinist's flesh. There arent any.

This is pure arrogance, to suggest that you've been revealed biblical truth that I haven't been.

Calvinism is hardly the gospel of grace. Far from it. In that view, out of the entire human race, God capriciously eeny meeny miny mo'ed who he would choose to save by causing to believe.

Yet Scripture clearly states that pleases God; to save those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21.

The very idea that election to salvation is unconditional violates the clear teaching of Scripture; that those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved.

Believing on Christ is the condition for salvation. So throw out point 2 of TULIP.

While you're at it, throw out point 3, since 3 verses plainly teach that Christ died for all.

I agree. Calvinists acting like they understand and own God’s grace is shocking.

And saying it right before they say God predestines some to hell, shows an ugly ignorance that they in their humility completely miss. I don’t think they underestMd humility. Too busy talking about how Elect they are

BNR32FAN · Nov 11, 2017

Ask and you shall receive, knock and the door shall be opened, seek and you will find. Yes no one comes to Jesus unless The Father has sent them but God doesn’t send them until they seek or ask. I used to believe in OSAS until someone pointed out Hebrews 6

“For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come— and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-6‬ ‭NLT‬‬

This is a pretty clear contradiction of OSAS.

MDC · Nov 11, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
Guess you don’t want to answer the question, huh?

Did answer it. It is God Alone who opened Cornelius heart and granted repentance

MDC · Nov 11, 2017

FreeGrace2 said:
I said:
"If true, then please explain Cornelius, who was NOT a saved man before Peter spoke to him and his household, per Acts 11:14.

As a not saved man, he was unregenerate, yet Acts 10 clearly portrays him as one who did recognize God as Creator and was thankful to Him, per Rom 1:19-21,"

OK. Then take the statement I responded to, which you assume to be truth, and then answer my request.

What I refuse to believe is any statement that does not line up with God's Word.

Right. So what. But the discussion wasn't about false religionists. It was about Cornelius, an unsaved man until Peter preached to him, per Act 11:14.

Let's be clear. Granting repentance is a far cry from causing repentance. Let's not forget that.

Please show any verse that teaches in plain language that God chooses who will believe. That's the thorn in the Calvinist's flesh. There arent any.

This is pure arrogance, to suggest that you've been revealed biblical truth that I haven't been.

Calvinism is hardly the gospel of grace. Far from it. In that view, out of the entire human race, God capriciously eeny meeny miny mo'ed who he would choose to save by causing to believe.

Yet Scripture clearly states that pleases God; to save those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21.

The very idea that election to salvation is unconditional violates the clear teaching of Scripture; that those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved.

Believing on Christ is the condition for salvation. So throw out point 2 of TULIP.

While you're at it, throw out point 3, since 3 verses plainly teach that Christ died for all.

The arrogance are those who hate Gods gospel of grace. All those ordained to eternal life will believe upon hearing the gospel as Acts 13:48 says. Pelagians promote self worship and works righteousness and is why they can’t see the truth in that verse. [Staff edit].

FreeGrace2 · Nov 11, 2017

BNR32FAN said:
Yes no one comes to Jesus unless The Father has sent them but God doesn’t send them until they seek or ask.

We must also accept the verse following John 6:44, about only those the Father has sent. v.45 says that all have been taught by God, and those who listened and learned come to Jesus. iow, they paid attention in class and believed what they were taught.

I used to believe in OSAS until someone pointed out Hebrews 6

“For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come— and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-6‬ ‭NLT‬‬

There is nothing in this passage about losing salvation.

In fact, Jesus was real clear about eternal security.

First, He taught in John 5:24 and 6:47 those who believe in Him HAVE (as in present possession) eternal life.

Then, in John 10:28, He taught that He gives them (believers) eternal life, and they shall never perish.

So, since those who believe are given eternal life, and Jesus stated that those given eternal life shall never perish, how can one lose eternal life?

This is a pretty clear contradiction of OSAS.

Nothing in the Bible contradicts Jesus' clear teaching of eternal security.

When any verse seems to contradict what Jesus plainly stated in John 5:24 and 10:28, the verse obviously isn't contradicting Jesus. It's just the reader's failure to rightly divide the word of truth with the verse that they think "seems" to contradict eternal life, which Jesus taught clearly.

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