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Notice that I said "if any parts", etc., which says that it is possible but not probable. However it still remains that most church prophecies drop out of memory five minutes after they are spoken.
Kicking the player instead of the ball is not productive and does not show due respect for other members on the thread. My purpose in starting this thread is to discuss and debate the issue, not to flame the member who gives his opinion. I enjoy debating with Arbiter1, and he often tries to put a new part in my hair (if I had any), but it is always with an attitude of respect and brotherly love. When we get to heaven, I am going to enjoy having fellowship with him and having a good laugh as we remember our discussions and debates on the forum. So, leave him alone and concentrate on the issues.If the prophesying is not predictive, why call it "prophesying?" Instead you call it "inspirational." Sowing seeds of confusion again. When in doubt, change the definition of prophesying to inspirational....always works.
Having your cake and eating it too.
Quite right. Shows a good leadership who keeps the manifestation of the gifts on the right track.Our church stays within the boundaries of scripture.
We will not allow a person to speak predictively unless GOD has proven that person to be a prophet/prophetess. So far, that number is 0 over the last 15 years or so that I've been there.
Agreed.Kicking the player instead of the ball is not productive and does not show due respect for other members on the thread. My purpose in starting this thread is to discuss and debate the issue, not to flame the member who gives his opinion. I enjoy debating with Arbiter1, and he often tries to put a new part in my hair (if I had any), but it is always with an attitude of respect and brotherly love.
Quite right. Shows a good leadership who keeps the manifestation of the gifts on the right track.
Let's not lump Lutheranism in with Protestantism as such. Lutherans are not cessessionists as we believe Jon Huss' prophecy of Luther is true. Both Lutherans and the Orthodox have liturgical services with the Eucharist at the center weekly and functions as a means of grace. Speaking in tongues is foreign historically and doesn't abode well for either the congregation.Seems to me that sola scriptura, and I am told that sola scriptura is pivotal for Protestantism, is fundamentally at odds with contemporary revelation from God by means of any gifts.
Let's not lump Lutheranism in with Protestantism as such. Lutherans are not cessessionists as we believe Jon Huss' prophecy of Luther is true. Both Lutherans and the Orthodox have liturgical services with the Eucharist at the center weekly and functions as a means of grace. Speaking in tongues is foreign historically and doesn't abode well for either the congregation.
I can see easily how prophesying does fit well with a non liturgical worship setting as the Eucharist is a monthly for quartering practice. And yes, for Baptist's and American Evangelicals sola Scriptura is at odds with contemporary revelation from God.
The problem my pastor has is not enough time in the week to do proper catechesis with the new believers and advance teaching with the older ones. 15 minutes for the sermon and 45 minutes for Sunday School. That's it. If speaking in tongues were added, this would take away from teaching time for the content of the Word of God.
For me it is "The Historic Western Evangelical Church" as Rome doesn't have the corner on the market for the word "historic." So the question would be raised, Where was Lutheranism before Luther? In the early church fathers especially Cyril of Alexandria.prefer to identify as Evangelical Catholics.
Let's not extend the word Protestant into territory that may be outside of its ambit. Specifically, I did not mention Lutherans. The identified conflict is between sola scriptura and contemporary revelation, the former limits significant doctrine and practise to that which is taught in the scriptures (66 books for Protestants) and the latter allows for additional revelation alleged to be given through spiritual gifts to people today. Thus, in theory, contemporary revelation could reveal the reality and accuracy of purgatory.Let's not lump Lutheranism in with Protestantism as such.
Seeing that there is no other recorded information about God and His plan of Salvation, including the death and resurrection of Christ, anywhere else except the written Scriptures. Without the Scriptures we would know nothing about the creation of the heavens and the earth, about the fall, the history of how Israel came into being, plus its subsequent history. We would have no idea of the life and work of Jesus, the birth of the Christian church, the revelations given to the Apostles in their letters, or the revelation given to John concerning future events.Seems to me that sola scriptura, and I am told that sola scriptura is pivotal for Protestantism, is fundamentally at odds with contemporary revelation from God by means of any gifts.
That's not right.Seeing that there is no other recorded information about God and His plan of Salvation, including the death and resurrection of Christ, anywhere else except the written Scriptures.
That too is not right.Without the Scriptures we would know nothing about the creation of the heavens and the earth, about the fall, the history of how Israel came into being, plus its subsequent history. We would have no idea of the life and work of Jesus, the birth of the Christian church, the revelations given to the Apostles in their letters, or the revelation given to John concerning future events.
That also isn't right.Without the Bible, we wouldn't have any idea whether we are even saved or not, because we wouldn't know the criteria needed to become saved.
Well, since it is not right the conclusion is also not right.So if that is true, where else would information come from and how do we know it is true and accurate? How would we know the difference between truth and heresy? For instance - Mary's perpetual virginity, her being ascended to heaven, her being the queen of heaven and advisor to Jesus. If these didn't come from the written Scriptures, where did they come from and how do we know that they are true and not man-based heresy?
Amen.However, contemporary revelation is a loose cannon that has run amok.
Nothing was known about the nature and character of God until it was revealed to Moses, who was instructed to write it all down. So the Torah was the guiding document for Israel, and the writings of the Prophets came after. Jesus said that if one didn't believe Moses and the Prophets, even if someone rose from the dead, one wouldn't believe. The only substantive information we have about the birth, life, ministry, death, and resurrection of Jesus is written in the Four Gospels. Paul used Moses and the Prophets as the validation for his preaching of the Gospel to the Jews and pagans.That's not right.
That too is not right.
That also isn't right.
Well, since it is not right the conclusion is also not right.
The truth is that Christians existed before the scriptures were written. People were saved before there was a bible. God did reveal himself, his plans, and other things directly to prophets, priests, women, and men, kings too. Scripture, writing it down, came later.
And in addition to sacred scripture there is and has always been since the days of the apostles and in the ancient days of Israel verbal and enacted revelation from God that is not written in the scriptures. There is now and always has been revelation from God by means of creation. But sacred Scripture is unique, and it is authoritative. However, contemporary revelation is a loose cannon that has run amok. It ought not be trusted, nor be elevated above any other human opinions expressed by people, and it is not by any means to be counted as canonical revelation from God.
Let's not extend the word Protestant into territory that may be outside of its ambit. Specifically, I did not mention Lutherans. The identified conflict is between sola scriptura and contemporary revelation, the former limits significant doctrine and practice to that which is taught in the scriptures (66 books for Protestants) and the latter allows for additional revelation alleged to be given through spiritual gifts to people today. Thus, in theory, contemporary revelation could reveal the reality and accuracy of purgatory.
That is not true; Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob knew the LORD, he revealed himself to them. Noah knew him. Adam and Eve knew him.Nothing was known about the nature and character of God until it was revealed to Moses
That is not true. The letters of the apostles reveal a number of things about the Lord Jesus. The Didache, letters and writings from the first century also speak of the lord Jesus. And, despite Protestant objections, Apostolic Tradition tells Christians a great deal about the Lord Jesus.The only substantive information we have about the birth, life, ministry, death, and resurrection of Jesus is written in the Four Gospels.
If the prophesying is not predictive, why call it "prophesying?" Instead you call it "inspirational."
So there is only one of two possible alternatives. The God and Jesus of the Bible, and a God and Jesus dreamed up out of the imagination. How do we know if we are following the right one?That is not true; Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob knew the LORD, he revealed himself to them. Noah knew him. Adam and Eve knew him.
That is not true. The letters of the apostles reveal a number of things about the Lord Jesus. The Didache, letters and writings from the first century also speak of the lord Jesus. And, despite Protestant objections, Apostolic Tradition tells Christians a great deal about the Lord Jesus.
But what you said about contemporary movements claiming to have Apostles, Prophets, Seers, Healers, and any number of other gifted individuals in their communities is likely true. There are people claiming to be authors of inspired epistles, I know, I read a collection of such epistles from a former Baptist in Australia whose little community of a few hundred (or less) is in the Sydney area; Hurstville to be precise, a 'church' called The Church of the Living God.*
* [woops, I was reading the web page for another church of the same name, not the one in Hurstville] disregard previous note.
One could start by avoiding the groups with inspired apostles and so forth, they seem least likely to know the truth.So there is only one of two possible alternatives. The God and Jesus of the Bible, and a God and Jesus dreamed up out of the imagination. How do we know if we are following the right one?
The Apostle John warned: "Believe not every spirit but test the spirits whether they are of God because many false prophets have gone out into the world." In view of this, we need to apply the test to every group that professes to teach "the truth". The best test is whether they preach the true Gospel of Christ or not. Paul said in Galatians: "if any one, even an angel comes preaching another gospel, let him be accursed". But what is the Gospel? Paul made that clear in 1 Corinthians 15:One could start by avoiding the groups with inspired apostles and so forth, they seem least likely to know the truth.
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