Why I (a Calvinist) embrace Arminians/Synergists as fellow believers

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT


A small thread clean up was done

Please stay on topic

ETA:
A few more off topic posts have been removed.

 

[Pilgrim Heir]

One of the replies on this thread states that a Calvinist who says that synergists are not believers does not understand Arminianism. This is not true. It is the very fact that Arminians believe that man must do something that God does not or cannot do for them which leads some to this position. I think it is important to note that Luther, Calvin, Owen and Edwards all clearly stated that Arminians are not believers. Did they not understand Arminianism?

 

[EmSw]

One of the replies on this thread states that a Calvinist who says that synergists are not believers does not understand Arminianism. This is not true. It is the very fact that Arminians believe that man must do something that God does not or cannot do for them which leads some to this position. I think it is important to note that Luther, Calvin, Owen and Edwards all clearly stated that Arminians are not believers. Did they not understand Arminianism?

Did you 'strive' to enter the narrow gate? Or, will you be one who seeks to enter and not be able? Do you believe God is going to 'strive' for you?

 

[Pilgrim Heir]

Did you 'strive' to enter the narrow gate? Or, will you be one who seeks to enter and not be able? Do you believe God is going to 'strive' for you?

Your comment is outside the scope of this thread. I`m sure there are plenty of other threads where you can debate the merits of synergism.

 

[EmSw]

Your comment is outside the scope of this thread. I`m sure there are plenty of other threads where you can debate the merits of synergism.

If mine is outside the scope of this thread, so is yours. As John Wayne would have said, you first brought up synergism, Pilgrim.

 

[EmSw]

staff edit .

Amazing how you have absolutely ZERO proof of your statements from the Bible. But, each man creates his own beliefs when they are unable to find them in the Bible. Do you take Luther, Calvin, Edwards, and Spurgeon as equal to the Bible?

 

[Pilgrim Heir]

If mine is outside the scope of this thread, so is yours. As John Wayne would have said, you first brought up synergism, Pilgrim.

The title of the thread is ¨Why I, a Calvinist, embrace Synergists as fellow believers¨. I disagree that I brought up Synergism. It is in the title of the thread. The argument is whether or not synergists are believers according to Calvinist thought. The thread does not pose the question if synergism is correct biblical doctrine. The author of the thread concludes it is not. IMO, the author does a poor job of convincing the reader that his position is true. What it boils down to is the following: what are the essentials of salvation? Or put another way, what is necessary to believe to go to heaven? The Bible nowehere states, Number 1, you must believe in 1 God in 3 persons. Number 2, you must believe that salvation is by faith alone, etc. The 4 men I mentioned believed that one must acknowledge that God alone is responsible for salvation. It is not a cooperative effort between God and man. They held that anyone who believes that salvation is a cooperative effort is an unbeliever. I am interested to know if you, EmSw, believe Calvinists are believers, and why or why not. Thank you for your time in considering this question.

 

[EmSw]

The title of the thread is ¨Why I, a Calvinist, embrace Synergists as fellow believers¨. I disagree that I brought up Synergism. It is in the title of the thread. The argument is whether or not synergists are believers according to Calvinist thought. The thread does not pose the question if synergism is correct biblical doctrine. The author of the thread concludes it is not. IMO, the author does a poor job of convincing the reader that his position is true. What it boils down to is the following: what are the essentials of salvation? Or put another way, what is necessary to believe to go to heaven? The Bible nowehere states, Number 1, you must believe in 1 God in 3 persons. Number 2, you must believe that salvation is by faith alone, etc. The 4 men I mentioned believed that one must acknowledge that God alone is responsible for salvation. It is not a cooperative effort between God and man. They held that anyone who believes that salvation is a cooperative effort is an unbeliever.

Are you of the Calvinist belief?

Do you believe those 4 men are correct in their statement? Apparently they didn't know, or didn't believe what Jesus said in Matthew 19:17 -

...but if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.

Sounds like man must cooperate to me. Are those who keep the commandments unbelievers? What a strange belief.

I am interested to know if you, EmSw, believe Calvinists are believers, and why or why not. Thank you for your time in considering this question.

A believer is one who believes and obeys the truths Jesus gave us. Whether Calvinists are among believers, would depend if they truly believe Jesus' words, and act upon them. Are they hearers and not doers of the Word?

I will ask you, according to Jesus, can a person enter life without keeping the commandments?

 

[Pilgrim Heir]

Are you of the Calvinist belief?

Do you believe those 4 men are correct in their statement? Apparently they didn't know, or didn't believe what Jesus said in Matthew 19:17 -

...but if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.

Sounds like man must cooperate to me. Are those who keep the commandments unbelievers? What a strange belief.



A believer is one who believes and obeys the truths Jesus gave us. Whether Calvinists are among believers, would depend if they truly believe Jesus' words, and act upon them. Are they hearers and not doers of the Word?

I will ask you, according to Jesus, can a person enter life without keeping the commandments?

Who has kept the commandments? You make the assumption that man is able to do what God commands. No man can obey the commandments perfectly. Only Jesus was sinless. So yes, it is possible to enter life without keeping the commandments. If you want to be justified by the law, you must keep the whole law. This is impossible. We are all sinners. None has kept the commandments, except Jesus. We enter life by God´s grace. Christ kept the commandments and his righteousness is imputed to us through faith. I am a Calvinist. You can see on my avatar that it says Presbyterian.

 

[EmSw]

Who has kept the commandments? You make the assumption that man is able to do what God commands. No man can obey the commandments perfectly. Only Jesus was sinless. So yes, it is possible to enter life without keeping the commandments. If you want to be justified by the law, you must keep the whole law. This is impossible. We are all sinners. None has kept the commandments, except Jesus. We enter life by God´s grace. Christ kept the commandments and his righteousness is imputed to us through faith. I am a Calvinist. You can see on my avatar that it says Presbyterian.

Which commandment(s) are you not able to keep? Are you having problems with continual lying? continual adultery? continual theft? Please don't tell us you can't keep from murdering. Maybe loving God is a problem for you.

How about that? You brazenly said Jesus is a liar. He said it you want to enter life, keep the commandments, while you say it is possible to enter life WITHOUT keeping the commandments.

Jesus never said keep the whole law, He said to keep His commandments. And yes, people have kept His commandments.

John says if you don't keep His commandments, you are a liar and have no truth in you. John also says this -

1 John 2:29
If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

It is the one who practices righteousness who is born of Him.

1 John 3:7
Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

Don't be deceived, Pilgrim. The one who practices (performs, works, does) righteousness is righteous. Nothing about any imputation here. It's the one who does righteousness that is righteous just as He is.

 

[MDC]

Who has kept the commandments? You make the assumption that man is able to do what God commands. No man can obey the commandments perfectly. Only Jesus was sinless. So yes, it is possible to enter life without keeping the commandments. If you want to be justified by the law, you must keep the whole law. This is impossible. We are all sinners. None has kept the commandments, except Jesus. We enter life by God´s grace. Christ kept the commandments and his righteousness is imputed to us through faith. I am a Calvinist. You can see on my avatar that it says Presbyterian.

Great post!

 

[EmSw]

Who has kept the commandments?

Those who love Jesus!

John 14:15
If you love Me, keep My commandments.

John 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him".

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

You are telling me you don't love Jesus. How is it Jesus has come to you and made His home with you, if you don't love Him and keep His word? There are some of us who don't think His commandments are burdensome.

 

[TheSeabass]

I want to explain why it is that I accept my arminian/synergistic friends as brothers and sisters in Christ. This issue has been coming up a lot lately and I wanted to start a thread that focused on it primarily.

The bottom line for me is that there are indeed passages of scripture that can indeed support the theological tenants of synergism - or at least scriptures that have that appearance. I believe that those who embrace arminianism do so because it is how they interpret scripture - weather it be from self-study, tradition, or influence - they are ultimately arminians because they are trusting in scripture.

Having said that - I believe the same thing regarding those who are monergistic/Calvinistic. Just as there are scriptures to support synergism - there are scriptures to support monergism.

So we come to our sotoreiological positions because of how we read scripture. For me personally - when looking at the whole of scripture I see it as being ultimately monergistic - but I understand how someone could come to a synergistic view.

It is the authority of scripture that binds us as brothers and sisters - and it is the reason why I can embrace you arminians as fellow christians. Ultimately we all love Jesus and are doing our best to be faithful to how we see things laid out in scripture. Just because we don't see it the same way doesn't mean we have to break the ties of fellowship. I go to church made up of both arminians and calvinists - and we all believe in Jesus and are trusting in Him for salvation.

So let the debate continue - but know this synergists - I love you as brothers and sisters in Christ.

Let me first preface my post by saying I am neither a Calvinist nor Arminian.

From scanning through this thread, I get the sense people are saying a person can be saved no matter what they believe.

You posted "Just as there are scriptures to support synergism - there are scriptures to support monergism." These are two polar opposites, mutually exclusive positions. Since the bible does not contradict itself with all verses harmonizing then it is impossible both can be true at the same time. So people can be on polar opposites on sotoeriological issues and both can be saved? How is this possible? It can't be.

Further confusion. If we assume Calvinism is "truth" (John 17:17) when it says before the world began God has already pre-chose certain individuals and those individuals alone will be the ones saved. Yet Arminians who do not believe this 'truth' can still be saved anyway even though they do not believe this 'truth'? On the other hand, if Calvinism is not truth, yet Calvinist can be saved not having "the truth"?


Seems this thread is saying truth is relative, that is, truth is whatever one makes it to be in that each person can believe what they want (Calvinism, Arminianism or some other 'ism') as to how man is saved and somehow each person is right therefore can be saved while believing polar opposite ideas.
Does truth matter?

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

I see them as my brothers and sisters in Christ as well since I don't see minor soteriological misunderstandings as a matter of salvation.

 

[TheSeabass]

I see them as my brothers and sisters in Christ as well since I don't see minor soteriological misunderstandings as a matter of salvation.

The differences between Calvinism & Arminianism are not minor. There are major polar opposite, mutually exclusive differences:

Does faith or faith only save?

Are works needed or not needed to obtain initial salvation?

These are just two MAJOR issues and regardless of which side of the issue you fall on, both cannot be truth (God's word) at the same time.
Does truth matter?

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

The differences between Calvinism & Arminianism are not minor. There are major polar opposite, mutually exclusive differences:

Does faith or faith only save?

Are works needed or not needed to obtain initial salvation?

These are just two MAJOR issues and regardless of which side of the issue you fall on, both cannot be truth (God's word) at the same time.
Does truth matter?

if you feel that we should have every single doctrine absolutely correct than I suppose none of us will be saved.

 

[TheSeabass]

if you feel that we should have every single doctrine absolutely correct than I suppose none of us will be saved.

This just opens up more cans of worms. For starters:

How much doctrinal error can one be in and still be saved?

And who gets decide for everyone else what particular doctrines a person has to be correct on and what doctrines a person can be wrong on.....yet still be saved?

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

This just opens up more cans of worms. For starters:

How much doctrinal error can one be in and still be saved?

And who gets decide for everyone else what particular doctrines a person has to be correct on and what doctrines a person can be wrong on.....yet still be saved?

again, if our doctrine has to be perfect, none of us will make it.

I go back to the thief on the cross. I don't think his doctrine was perfect, but the Lord saved him anyway.

we're responsible for the amount of light we have been given.

 

[TheSeabass]

again, if our doctrine has to be perfect, none of us will make it.

I go back to the thief on the cross. I don't think his doctrine was perfect, but the Lord saved him anyway.

we're responsible for the amount of light we have been given.

I am discussing this issue on another forum. What you are saying above is what various denominations do in trying to minimalize the bible in order to accommodate and make room for all their contradicting faiths/doctrines they all contain. From your response above, you ARE implying a person can be in doctrinal error and still be saved. If this is true, then the bible is worthless, it serves no purpose when people can believe whatever they want and still be saved. Do you believe that some people from all these thousands of religious groups will be save even though they all contradict each other over doctrine, even though the bible says there is ONE body and ONE faith, Ephesians 4:4-5?


Where are you getting the idea one cannot correctly have and keep all of Christ's doctrine?

2 John 1:9-10 "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:"

A person better have all of Christ's doctrine correctly else that have not God. And no verse says one cannot have all of Christ's doctrines correctly. "Ye shall know the truth" (John 8:32) means one can know Christ's doctrines.


From the above passage of 2 John 1:9-10 along with Luke 4:4 and Acts 20:27 I see that all of Christ doctrine, every word of God and all of God's counsel are important. So where does the idea come from that not having all Christ's doctrine, not having every word of God, not having all God's counsel is not important or needed to being saved?

Jeremiah 10:23 "O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps."

Man on his own does not know the way, does not know how to direct his steps therefore God gave man an instruction book, the bible, to show man the way and to teach man how to direct his steps. Yet now man says various parts of that book are not really important, not really essential, cannot be known, that man does not really need to know it correctly and yet still be saved? That would be man trying to direct his own steps.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

I am discussing this issue on another forum. What you are saying above is what various denominations do in trying to minimalize the bible in order to accommodate and make room for all their contradicting faiths/doctrines they all contain. From your response above, you ARE implying a person can be in doctrinal error and still be saved. If this is true, then the bible is worthless, it serves no purpose when people can believe whatever they want and still be saved. Do you believe that some people from all these thousands of religious groups will be save even though they all contradict each other over doctrine, even though the bible says there is ONE body and ONE faith, Ephesians 4:4-5?


Where are you getting the idea one cannot correctly have and keep all of Christ's doctrine?

2 John 1:9-10 "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:"

A person better have all of Christ's doctrine correctly else that have not God. And no verse says one cannot have all of Christ's doctrines correctly. "Ye shall know the truth" (John 8:32) means one can know Christ's doctrines.


From the above passage of 2 John 1:9-10 along with Luke 4:4 and Acts 20:27 I see that all of Christ doctrine, every word of God and all of God's counsel are important. So where does the idea come from that not having all Christ's doctrine, not having every word of God, not having all God's counsel is not important or needed to being saved?

Jeremiah 10:23 "O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps."

Man on his own does not know the way, does not know how to direct his steps therefore God gave man an instruction book, the bible, to show man the way and to teach man how to direct his steps. Yet now man says various parts of that book are not really important, not really essential, cannot be known, that man does not really need to know it correctly and yet still be saved? That would be man trying to direct his own steps.

so you believe we must have every inch of the law understood in 100% accuracy? I suppose the only person that will be in heaven is Jesus as no one has perfect doctrine, including you and me. we're doomed!

I do find it interesting that you reject synergism but would say that someone who doesn't get baptized and doesn't have all doctrine 100% correct will be denied heaven even if they do profess Christ and put their faith in him. seems like works justification to me.

2 john 1:9-10 is speaking of those who are heretics that know the truth fully and reject it for something else. that's gonna be different from the person who has had Ezekiel 36:26-28 happen to them and is still growing in their faith. muslims, buddists, gnostics, etc have another doctrine other than Christ. they reject Christ and they will not receive salvation.

again, the thief on the cross did not have perfect doctrine, was he saved or not?