Why Historians Date the Revelation to the Reign of Domitian

[precepts]

Originally Posted by precepts:
There's nowhere in scripture saying the ten toes represents 10 kingdoms. The 4 beast kingdoms in Dan 7 are the same kingdoms represented in the image. The 4th beast kingdom, which is the two legs of iron in the image, has ten kings, not kingdoms:

The toes and feet represents this 11th horn, the 5th kingdom on the image, and the 2nd beast in Rev 13 with the two horns, the False Prophet. The 1st beast in Rev 13 represents the legs of iron and the 4th beast in Dan 7 with the ten horns, Rome. Rome is the last of all the empires being the 4th and 5th kingdoms in Dan 7 and the two beasts in Rev 13.

Dan 7:11's 11th horn being given to the flame is Rev 19:20, proving the Beast in Rev 17:12 is also the 8th horn of the 10 on Dan 7's 4th beast kingdom of Rome. These are the facts. The 5th kingdom of the toes and feet doesn't have ten kingdoms because of the ten toes. It is the 11th horn, the 2nd beast in Rev 13, the False Prophet. The reason he has two horns is because they represent him and the "devil" that's cast into the lake of fire post the 1,000 yrs reign.

The "Devil" isn't the "devil" that's cast into the lake of fire, but Gog, the Greek lil horn from Dan 8:11 and 11:31. The False Prophet and Gog are two of the four Euphrates angels released during the 6th trump. Check the connection between Ez 39:22 and Rev 20:9. They're the same event, the reason Dan 11's context jumps from the Greek kings to the 2nd resurrection in Dan 12.

What Christianity hasn't discovered yet is the "Wheat and Tares" harvest resurrection is the 3rd resurrection of this physical world into the New Shalem or the lake of fire. There's no "throne" judgement in the 3rd resurrection. The 2nd Resurrection is the "Great White Throne" judgement. The 1st resurrection was for the just only:

Not "3" nor "2" resurrectons sir, only "1" at the end, ie, Jn.5:28, 29; 6:39 and Dan.12:2, and this isn't the Truth, but on earth. Sorry, appreciate you and your words.

Humble pie Jack

I'm speechless.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[precepts]

Lets see what Jesus Christ says about his prophecies, just to make sure, because his words were given for ALL Christians to receive..

Joh 14:29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

Jesus is telling us that what he is saying is for the future and to use the prophecy to understand our reality.

Again, in Jesus own words, given for ALL GENERATIONS TO USE FOR PROFIT.

Joh 16:4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.

Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.



Listen to what Jesus Christ is trying to tell you...

Not me..

When Christ was saying these words, weren't he speaking of the temple destruction in 70 ad as future?

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

When Christ was saying these words, weren't he speaking of the temple destruction in 70 ad as future?

70ad is not anywhere in the Bible.

As a preterist, you must rely on information outside of the Bible to make that assertion.

No problems with that, but if the preterist is using information other than the Bible to prove their point, then they must accept the same unfolding of prophecy today which is a fulfillment of Jesus Christs promise..


There are also holes in the prophecy that history is unable to account for that you guys say happened already, yet the current reality that is unfolding guarentees the promises Christ paid for with his Blood..

Forgive me for preaching a Bloody Christ, it was indeed his Blood that bought our salvation..

He died so we would have his Gospel, which is given to ALL generations..


You guys claim Nero stood in Gods temple and declared himself God.

That is no where in history...

 

[parousia70]

You guys claim Nero stood in Gods temple and declared himself God.

That is no where in history...

False. Straw Man.

Show me ONE preterist who makes that claim.

 

[shturt678]

Lets see what Jesus Christ says about his prophecies, just to make sure, because his words were given for ALL Christians to receive..

Joh 14:29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

Jesus is telling us that what he is saying is for the future and to use the prophecy to understand our reality.

Again, in Jesus own words, given for ALL GENERATIONS TO USE FOR PROFIT.

Joh 16:4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.

Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.



Listen to what Jesus Christ is trying to tell you...

Not me..

Prophecy, the objective contents from God, can be in the past, present, or the future.

A prophet in the broad sense indicates any and all ability to communicate the saving will of God to others so that every true non-partial-Preterist, non-full-Preterist or non-Futurist may be called a valid "Prophet."

Hope this helps,

Humble pie Jack

btw immediate prophecy has ceased, ie, all mediate after the 1st century

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

False. Straw Man.

Show me ONE preterist who makes that claim.

So you dont believe that Nero was the antichrist, the "beast" of Revelation? The Lawless one? The Man of Sin?

Ive literally been sifting through preterist training sites that teach you guys how to manipulate Nero as a proven Beast, but he doesnt fit the bill according to Roman records..

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

Prophecy, the objective contents from God, can be in the past, present, or the future.

A prophet in the broad sense indicates any and all ability to communicate the saving will of God to others so that every true non-partial-Preterist, non-full-Preterist or non-Futurist may be called a valid "Prophet."

Hope this helps,

Humble pie Jack

btw immediate prophecy has ceased, ie, all mediate after the 1st century

Can you show me in the Bible where a prophecy was given in the Bible for an earlier part of the Bible? (Sounds like a self defeating premise)

Was Christ speaking to future Generations in the bible, or just his disciples and scribes?

Prophets speak through spirit, they are the vehicle for God to speak to us directly.

Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

This is a message for all Christians..

 

[Biblewriter]

BW, what reason would Syriac versions have for transcribing this:

[FONT=&quot]7 – Early Syrian versions of the Book of Revelation has the title of "John the Evangelist in the Isle of Patmos, where he was thrown by Nero Caesar." Nero, of course, was dead by 68 AD.




I've been to sites and checked their titles.
[/FONT]

Very simple. The oldest of these two Syriac versions is the Philoxenian Version, which is thought to have been made by Polycarpus of Mabug in about 508 A.D., and the other one is the Harclean version, thought to have been made by Thomas of Harkel in about 616 A.D. That is, one dates from the sixth century and the other from the seventh century, long after this lie had begin to be circulated. It could not have been successfully pushed in earlier centuries, because there were just too many people that knew it was false.

But by four to five hundred years after the Revelation was written, there were very dew that knew this to be a lie.

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

False. Straw Man.

Show me ONE preterist who makes that claim.

As you can see, ebedmelech has affirmed, with numerology that the AC is in fact Nero..

He is saying that Nero is the Beast, and his number is 666..

Once again...been there with you Bible2...and you keep making the same mistake with the gematria.


Now try it the way it should be done...not as you do it above...but using the HEBREW LETTERS!!!

Like this:
N = 50
R = 200
W = 6
N = 50
Q = 100
S = 60
R = 200

Because that's how it's done!

The Hebrew rendering:

Hope that helps you..

 

[Interplanner]

To ChristoPeri,
No there wouldn't a prophecy for an earlier part, but the span of delivery of the Bible is...approx 2000 years.

If Christ spoke in 31 about things that would happen in the 50s and 60s after him, he is prophesying even though WE weren't there. What a concept--that there might be prophesy that WE weren't there for!

In Acts 12, there were prophetesses who announce a famine that happened during Claudius reign; a short term prophesy. But once again WE weren't there, so if a tree falls in the forest and WE weren't there, does that mean it didn't make any sound?

As for the Rev, you have probably gathered that there is a group of scholars who believe it was written regarding the Nero & late Judaism (if you count the DofJ as the end) period, about things going on right at the time. It then probably had a very short turnaround.

But if you really want the heart, it's in the late part of the Rev: the spirit of prophesy is the testimony of Jesus--ie, the declaration of his saving grace so a person can be saved. We are not trying to go all over the world spooking people out of their wits. The grace of God has come, offering justification from sins to all who believe, so that they will honor and obey their God. "The love of Christ compels us" (2 Cor 5) is quite different from operating out of a fear-based nervous system. "One died for all, therefore all were dead" says Paul, continuing. Ie, he didn't impress on people what would happen in the future or at death; they were already 'dead.' We gain life through justification, Rom 5, esp. B. Very life affirming no matter whether the world is creaking with broken beams.

 

[Interplanner]

BW, and why would it be refuted centuries later? Ie, where is the immediate disproof from back in the day? I have a harder time seeing why a 90 year old (in a social world were 60 was a full life) would be thrown to a prison, than a 60 year old in the prime of his preaching and teaching by a Nero.

 

[parousia70]

So you dont believe that Nero was the antichrist, the "beast" of Revelation? The Lawless one? The Man of Sin?

You have presumed these are the same person.
Scripture NEVER teaches they are.

Ive literally been sifting through preterist training sites that teach you guys how to manipulate Nero as a proven Beast, but he doesnt fit the bill according to Roman records..

Again, you first need to prove FROM SCRIPTURE that these [The Beast of Revelation, The man of sin of 2 Thess. & antichrist of 1 & 2 John] are the same individual human being.

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

You have presumed these are the same person.
Scripture NEVER teaches they are.

Again, you first need to prove FROM SCRIPTURE that these [The Beast of Revelation, The man of sin of 2 Thess. & antichrist of 1 & 2 John] are the same individual human being.

I dont need to prove anything regarding prophecy before it unfolds, that is how heretical doctrines are formed..

AntiChrist is a spirit. This is not something that is debated..

We are looking for those in AntiChrist spirit who will be a false prophet, and a false messiah, claiming to be god.

Who in 70ad stood in the temple of God and claimed to be God before it was destroyed?

 

[parousia70]

I dont need to prove anything regarding prophecy before it unfolds, that is how heretical doctrines are formed..

If you are going to make a claim based on an unproven premise, then yes you do need to prove the premise first.

AntiChrist is a spirit. This is not something that is debated..

Correct, a VERY SPECIFIC spirit affecting a VERY SPECIFIC PEOPLE.

We are looking for those in AntiChrist spirit who will be a false prophet, and a false messiah, claiming to be god.

The Man of Sin and Beast of revelation do not fit John's VERY SPECIFIC definition of antichrist.

Who in 70ad stood in the temple of God and claimed to be God before it was destroyed?

A handful of folks actually... the Zealots threw up a few, but we can get to that later.... you still need to prove FROM SCRIPTURE (and not your futurist training sites) that the Beast of Revelation is the same individual as Paul's Man of Sin from 2 Thess..

Que the crickets....

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

I dont need revelation to prove my point.

This prophecy cannot be objectively traced or proven to have happened.

When it does, God wont let there be any confusion for his people..


Do you honestly believe that God hides anything from his own? Far from it...

 

[parousia70]

Like I said... que the crickets...

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

Like I said... que the crickets...

"Silence confirms consent".

Like I said, you have no objective proof of your 2thes prophecy every occuring in human history.

You cant submit anything because you have nothing.

The crickets are the sound of your own legs, fleeting as they may be from the topic at hand..

 

[parousia70]

"Silence confirms consent".

Like I said, you have no objective proof of your 2thes prophecy every occuring in human history.

You cant submit anything because you have nothing.

The crickets are the sound of your own legs, fleeting as they may be from the topic at hand..

Oh contraire...I'll be happy to get to that in due time.

But first you need to stop trying to skirt the issue at hand. Namely that You CAN NOT PROVE FROM SCRIPTURE that Johns' Beast and Paul's Man of Sin are the same individual.

You are trying valliantly to change the course of the discussion, but I will stand firm and continue to call you to account.

SHOW US THE SCRIPTURE that teaches that Johns Beast of Revelation and Pauls man of Sin of 2 Thess are the same individual.

You can't.

 

[ebedmelech]

70ad is not anywhere in the Bible.

As a preterist, you must rely on information outside of the Bible to make that assertion.

Really? Well...if you don't mind, I'd like to jump in here. Let's nail this down and see how you're making an assumption.

Three of the Gospels speak to the Olivet Discourse...Matthew 24 & 25, Luke 21, and Mark 13. However, John doesn't include it in his gospel because he writes Revelation which is giving a more complete prophecy of the Olivet Discourse.

John closes out the prophecy in Revelation 22;18, 19. So now the issue is... WHEN did John write Revelation, which dispensationalism claims was 95 AD. John the apostle is over 90 years old at this time if your claim is true.

On the other side even within Revelation John tells us these things:

*He was a "partaker IN THE TRIBULATION"

*He had been sent (exiled) to Patmos because of his testimony in Christ.

*As he writes to the 7 churches he mentions tribulation 3 times to them as something THEY would see coming to them.

Should we just blow that off? Or should we realize as John is telling us and the churches he mentions it to...that the tribulation is already upon them?

No problems with that, but if the preterist is using information other than the Bible to prove their point, then they must accept the same unfolding of prophecy today which is a fulfillment of Jesus Christs promise..

On the contrary...if the information is in concert with the bible and the prophecy is closed (as John closed Revelation at 22:18, 19)...what is wrong at looking at the prophecy in light of the event it prophesies, to see if that event is the fulfillment of that prophecy? Please answer that APART from what you think...it's a legitimate question.

There are also holes in the prophecy that history is unable to account for that you guys say happened already, yet the current reality that is unfolding guarentees the promises Christ paid for with his Blood..

Like what?

Forgive me for preaching a Bloody Christ, it was indeed his Blood that bought our salvation..

He died so we would have his Gospel, which is given to ALL generations..


You guys claim Nero stood in Gods temple and declared himself God.

That is no where in history...

Think again. Jesus has gone to the cross. THE TEMPLE IS NOW HIS CHURCH...NOT Herod's temple...AND THIS IS THE CLEAR ERROR you're making! Jesus pronounced Herod's Temple DESOLATE in Matthew 23:37-39. It was NO LONGER GOD'S HOUSE.

God rips the veil of the temple in half when Jesus dies...A CLEAR SIGN that the way to the Holy of Holies IS NOW JESUS!!! (Hebrews 9:12)

So think again! This idea that Paul is speaking of the Jerusalem temple is the fundamental error since that temple is NOT God's temple. THE CHURCH IS. Paul tells us that in many passages;

1 Corinthians 3:16:
16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

1 Corinthians 6:19:
19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

Ephesians 2:19-21:
19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household,
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,

1 Peter 2:1
4 And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God,
5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
6 For this is contained in Scripture: “Behold, I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, “The stone which the builders rejected, This became the very corner stone,”

So now...before this goes any further...this is the crux of the argument is the temple a building...OR...is it God's people who HE DWELLS IN???

This is why your point is off! We believe the temple Paul speaks of IS NOT the Jerusalem temple...ESPECIALLY when he's writnig to Thessalonian Christians who are NO WHERE near the temple.

How do you respond?

 

[parousia70]

On the other side even within Revelation John tells us these things:

*He was a "partaker IN THE TRIBULATION"

*He had been sent (exiled) to Patmos because of his testimony in Christ.

*As he writes to the 7 churches he mentions tribulation 3 times to them as something THEY would see coming to them.

All great points, but don't forget John also makes the claim that he was in the spirit "on the Lords Day" ie; The Day of the Lord.

Revelation is nothing less than actual, apostolic proclamation that "the day of the Lord" had arrived in John's day.

Should we just blow that off?

Nope.