Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

klutedavid

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That is just not true my brother. Not true at all.

I do not mean to be rude or disrespectful, but have you read the Bible thoroughly????

The Bible truth is that ALL the Apostles had ALL the Sign gifts and did what Jesus did including raising the dead.

"Go and announce to them that the Kingdom of Heaven is near. Heal the sick, raise the dead, cure those with leprosy, and cast out demons. Give as freely as you have received!" (Matthew 10:7-8).

The disciples followed instructions and returned, sharing about all the great miracles they performed (Luke 9:10).

  • All believers spoke in foreign languages (Acts 2:4).
  • Peter's shadow fell on the sick, healing them (Acts 5:15-16).
  • Philip cast out demons and healed the lame (Acts 8:7; 8:13).
  • Peter & John laid hands on believers who then received the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:14-17
  • Peter raised Tabitha, aka Dorcas, from the dead (Acts 9:36-43).
  • Paul cursed and blinded the blasphemous Elymas the sorcerer (Acts 13:11-12).
  • Paul & Barnabas performed signs and wonders in Iconium (Acts 14:3).
  • Paul & Barnabas healed the crippled man who had faith (Acts 14:8-10).
  • Paul & Silas cast a demon out of a fortune telling slave girl (Acts 16:16-18).
  • Paul given extreme power for many unusual miracles. People touched him with aprons and handkerchiefs and laid the cloths on the sick and demon-possessed, who were then healed (Acts 19:11-12).
  • Paul raised Eutychus from the dead after a terrible accident (Acts 20:9-12).
  • Paul unharmed by poisonous snake bite in Malta (Acts 28:3-6).
  • Paul healed Publius' father of fever and dysentery (Acts 28:7-8).
  • Paul healed all sick people on the island of Malta (Acts 28:9-10).

Read more: Miracles of Jesus' Apostles
Paul was not one of the 12 apostles. Paul came later and was the last witness of the risen Christ. There were over 500 witnesses of the risen Christ and are they all called apostles?

Barnabas was also preaching Jesus and probably with signs and wonders also. Though the scripture does not refer to Barnabas as an apostle.
 
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klutedavid

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Aren't all miracles signs?
Signs of what authority?

The man with the withered hand was healed by Jesus. The Pharisees saw that as a sign that Jesus, was empowered by the devil.

Miracles, ministries, and gifts, are all visible.
 
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zoidar

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Signs of what authority?

The man with the withered hand was healed by Jesus. The Pharisees saw that as a sign that Jesus, was empowered by the devil.

Miracles, ministries, and gifts, are all visible.

Signs of that Jesus has all power, even over death and illness.

The Pharisees just denied the signs.
 
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1an

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I challage that thought.

#1. We can read and accept the Bible as true and reliable.

#2. IF the sign gifts are still operating today then why ARE YOU AND ALL THE OTHERS SUPPORTING THEIR EXISTANCE GOING FROM HOSPITAL TO HOSPITAL HEALING THOSE WITH COVID-19???????

Honestly......I weary at all the talk about this and NO ONE does anything to prove it.

TOO much talk and TOO little action.

Lets get out there and heal some sick people or begin to look at this situation WITHOUT
Rose colored glasses. Sometimes reality is the best medicine.
The gifts of the Spirit are in addition to the infilling of the Holy Spirt at salvation. Have you ever sought the gifts?
.
 
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1an

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It seems so, yes. Maybe better call it magic, than miracles?
The devil is sneaky and can even transform himself into an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14). Therefore God’s people must be able to discern spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:13-14). The study of God’s Word will help us divide what is true from what is false (2 Timothy 2:15). God’s people cannot be deceived if they are His elect and watch unto prayer (Matthew 24:24, Mark 13:33).
from the net.
.
 
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Guojing

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I have never heard the phrase Sign Gifts. Do you mean the visible signs of physical healing for example?
.
  1. Signs are for the nation Israel. (Exodus 4, Psalms 74:9, Judges 6:13)
  2. The Messiah was promised to Israel and prophecy stated that he will perform many signs and wonders to prove his identity (Luke 7:20-23)
  3. When Jesus appeared, he performed all the necessary signs to testify to the nation Israel (John 20:30-21, Acts 2:22, Hebrews 2:4)
  4. Despite the numerous signs, Israel rejected him by putting him on the cross. (Luke 20:14, Acts 2:36)
 
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zoidar

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  1. Signs are for the nation Israel. (Exodus 4, Psalms 74:9, Judges 6:13)
  2. The Messiah was promised to Israel and prophecy stated that he will perform many signs and wonders to prove his identity (Luke 7:20-23)
  3. When Jesus appeared, he performed all the necessary signs to testify to the nation Israel (John 20:30-21, Acts 2:22, Hebrews 2:4)
  4. Despite the numerous signs, Israel rejected him by putting him on the cross. (Luke 20:14, Acts 2:36)

The miracles the apostles did after Jesus ascension, what do we call that, if not signs?
 
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swordsman1

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I disagree.

Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

If you are using that verse to argue for the continuation of all spiritual gifts, then how come the gift of apostleship was withdrawn?

Truth be told, the "gifts" in Rom 11:29 are not referring to spiritual gifts. They are nowhere in the context. Paul is referring to the gifts and calling that were given to the nation of Israel, not the New Testament church (see previous verses).

Douglas Moo - The Epistle to the Romans (NICNT Commentary)
The "call" of God clearly refers to the election according to which the Jews are beloved. The "gifts" may then be combined with "call" as one idea— "the benefits of God's call" — or be taken as a distinct category — "the gifts and the call of God." The relationship between this paragraph and 9:1-5 suggests that Paul would intend "gifts" to summarize those privileges of Israel that he enumerated in 9:4-5. God's "call," then, is probably to be seen as one of the most important of those gifts: "the gifts and especially, among those gifts, the call of God." The rare word "irrevocable" emphasizes the point that Paul made at the beginning of his argument: "The word of God has not failed" (9:6a).

C.E.B. Cranfield - Romans a Shorter Commentary (ICC Commentary series)
While many things which are involved in this particular people's existence as the special people of God may be described equally truly as God's gracious gifts to them or as His calling of them, we should perhaps understand by `gifts' here the precious privileges of the Jewish people seen as God's undeserved gifts to them and by `call' God's calling of them to be His special
people, to stand in a special relation to Him, and so to perform a special task and fulfil a special function in history.

Leon Morris - The Epistle to the Romans (Pillar New Testament Commentary)
He is speaking rather of the gifts he has listed in 9:4–5. Israel was a special people and had special gifts accordingly, gifts like covenants, adoption, and the like which are not to be thought of as individual or racial endowments.


I
n any case, irrevocable (ἀμεταμέλητος) does not mean un-withdrawable. It means not repenting of, not changing your mind, not regretting your decision.

Strong's Concordance
ametamelétos: not repented of
Original Word: ἀμεταμέλητος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: ametamelétos
Phonetic Spelling: (am-et-am-el'-ay-tos)
Definition: not repented of
Usage: not to be repented of, about which no change of mind can take place, not affected by change of mind.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
ἀμεταμέλητος, (μεταμέλομαι, μεταμέλει), not repented of, unregretted: Romans 11:29; σωτηρία, by litotes, salvation affording supreme joy, 2 Corinthians 7:10 (others connect it with μετάνοιαν). (Plato, Polybius, Plutarch.)

God certainly did not regret giving apostles, prophets, tongues speakers, etc to the early church. They served a very necessary function. That doesn't mean he can cannot withdraw those gifts after their purpose has been served.

Obviously, the ministry of an apostle was specifically subject to eye witness accounts. But the office of an evangelist, teacher, e.t.c., are still valid.

Agreed. Many gifts continue. But the foundational gifts (apostleship, prophecy, tongues, healing) do not, in my view.

So only the Corinthian church had sexual immorality?

You made need to retract that statement.

Only the Corinthian church had divisive factions?

Church history is overflowing with church division.

My point is Paul's epistle was written to the Corinthians only, addressing their specific issues. They do not apply to all churches. Not all churches have sexual immorality, abuse the Lord's table etc. Paul's instructions regarding those issues should only be followed by other churches if they apply to them. Similarly if the foundational gifts have ceased then Paul's instructions regarding those gifts no longer apply to churches today.

A trivial comment.

Not all. It is very relevant. If you accept that Paul's instruction for women's head coverings is not applicable today because cultural circumstances have changed, then you must also accept that Paul's other instructions may not apply today if circumstances have changed.
 
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Albion

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Well whether they ceased or not we cannot know for sure.
We cannot begin by saying that. How much evidence of the gifts there was during the first century or two of the Christian era...or how much there might be today...is very hard, probably impossible, to calculate, that's right.

However, we have reason to believe that they were significant then and there is no doubt that they are not that today. Where are the thousands of people being converted to Christ because they see people being slain in the spirit or making unintelligible sounds, for instance? Well, hardly any.

How many Christian congregations and denominations make such things essential in their worship practices? Again, very few and it's mainly smaller denominations at that.

What this suggests is that the gifts have
"ceased" to be a key part of the Church's life, which is what the "Cessationists" have pointed to (and why they are called by that term) It's not that they are applauding it...or are opposed to Scripture. It's that they recognize what apparently happened.

I as the church believing was shrinking as the apostate church was growing from teh 4th -16th centuries, One would expect teh gifts empowered by the Spirit to shrink as well!
I do not agree, as a matter of the historical record, that the Church during that period either was "shrinking" or that it became apostate.

Most of Christendom was not walking by the Spirit but by dogma of a man made institution. As teh reformation took hold over time, we see a progression:
All right. It's true that error developed and needed reforming. In response, we got the Reformation. But that doesn't mean that the Church had shrunk in size or influence or become apostate.

1. The bible becoming readily available to the masses.
2. the old doctrines were called into question.
3. biblical doctrine was being reborn in the lives of the believers.
4. systematic Study began to grow and with it the beginning of systematic theology.
Okay.
5. as the more critical issues were now well established and rooted in many churches. teh gifts once again began to be manifested. (turn of teh 20 th century approx)
So, you're saying that the Reformation occurred during the 1500s...and some small Pentecostal movements developed centuries later, long after your points 1, 2, 3, and 4 had been established?

Even if what you are telling us were true, it doesn't mean that the gifts did not cease for all intents and purposes. It's that they did cease and then were re-introduced, but in a small way...and much later.

That still would prove Cessationism and debunk the claim of Continuationists that there could never be any ceasing.

Now once again Pentacostalism has way overblown the gifts of tongues, prophecy and healing. They were given by god to minister and edify teh church not to take over the mindset of churches in a large degree. Also tongues is the least of the gifts. It is for self edification which is then supposed to turn to edifying the church because that person has been built up !

Well that is how I see it through my rose colored glasses.

Thanks for your very readable explanation (even if we don't agree on everything). I liked it.
 
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1an

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In England the Chancellor of the exchequer, was always a churchman, they loaned money with property as security and became very rich as a result, owning lots of property and land when people defaulted on the loan. They thought nothing of going to war in the name of God, and got rich by looting. The Crusades for example. From my reading of English medieval history, the church in England was apostate and an arm of government.

My own personal opinion is that God works through spiritual leaders, as a conduit if you like, and uses people like Charles Wesley, George Gefreys (spelling) and many others. Without these men of God, the church again stagnates as it may have done after the death of all the apostles, and then we ask, where have the gifts gone. Trouble is, in my opinion, not only do we need great men of God, but for the whole nation to rise up in prayer and worship to the Lord. I cannot see that happening anytime soon, but when it does I am sure we will see signs and wonders again.
 
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Major1

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The gifts of the Spirit are in addition to the infilling of the Holy Spirt at salvation. Have you ever sought the gifts?
.

Certainly.

The spiritual gifts identified in Romans 12 are prophesying, serving, teaching, encouraging, giving, leadership, and mercy.

Have you considered those?
 
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Major1

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The miracles the apostles did after Jesus ascension, what do we call that, if not signs?

Correct.....the APOSTLES did them then, we can not do them today because there are NO apostles today!
 
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Major1

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Paul was not one of the 12 apostles. Paul came later and was the last witness of the risen Christ. There were over 500 witnesses of the risen Christ and are they all called apostles?

Barnabas was also preaching Jesus and probably with signs and wonders also. Though the scripture does not refer to Barnabas as an apostle.

Yes he did and he as were the original Apostles called by Jesus and personally commissioned by Jesus.
 
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Major1

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Hm, thanks! You may be right about that. When I wrote that post, afterwards I thought to myself if that is true, but I let it be. This leads me to: We are supposed to do such miracles as well. The church needs to be one fire again for Jesus. I'm sure God has that plan for us. We'll see...

I agree. The church needs to be on fire but it does not need to be practing a false dichotomy from men instead of God's Word.

The only way to be excited for God is to preach the Word of God in power and authority not sitting around expecting to see a sign or a wonder.
 
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Major1

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The reason for Paul saying women should keep silence in the church is due to the boys and men having a temple education which the women did not get. The services, were in Koin Greek while the women only knew the language of the market place. Not being able to understand, the women started to chatter among themselves. We wouldn't want that in our churches would we, and as they all sat together, I can imagine the disruption it would cause. Then (verse 34) the women were to ask their husbands when they got home, and they could explain to the children, and no, the women were not speaking in tongues.
.

I do not agree with your post here.

The whole context of 1 Corth. chapters 12-14 is Correction to the Corinthian church.
They were doing many things wrong and had brought the temple worship practice of speaking in tongues in idol worship into the church of God.

As the Context is speaking in tongues when Paul says that women are to be silent in church he is specifically spaeaking about tongues in the church spoken by the women.
 
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1an

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I do not agree with your post here.

The whole context of 1 Corth. chapters 12-14 is Correction to the Corinthian church.
They were doing many things wrong and had brought the temple worship practice of speaking in tongues in idol worship into the church of God.

As the Context is speaking in tongues when Paul says that women are to be silent in church he is specifically spaeaking about tongues in the church spoken by the women.
Several sub-issues are dealt with in those three chapters and now we come to the female role that remains unchanged from Genesis onward. However there is nothing about the female role with regard to tongues, and neither is there likely to be, seeing as women are told to keep silent in the church.

1 Corinthians 14:34
Let your women keep silence ... - This rule is positive, explicit, and universal. There is no ambiguity in the expressions; and there can be no difference of opinion, one would suppose, in regard to their meaning. The sense evidently is, that in all those things which he had specified, the women were to keep silence; they were to take no part. He had discoursed of speaking foreign languages, and of prophecy; and the evident sense is, that in regard to all these they were to keep silence, or were not to engage in them. These pertained solely to the male portion of the congregation. These things constituted the business of the public teaching; and in this the female part of the congregation were to be silent. (Albert Barnes)

================

1 Corinthians 14:34
Let your women keep silence in the churches - This was a Jewish ordinance; women were not permitted to teach in the assemblies, or even to ask questions. The rabbins taught that “a woman should know nothing but the use of her distaff.” And the sayings of Rabbi Eliezer, as delivered, Bammidbar Rabba, sec. 9, fol. 204, are both worthy of remark and of execration; they are these: yisrephu dibrey torah veal yimsaru lenashim, “Let the words of the law be burned, rather than that they should be delivered to women.” This was their condition till the time of the Gospel, when, according to the prediction of Joel, the Spirit of God was to be poured out on the women as well as the men, that they might prophesy, i.e. teach. And that they did prophesy or teach is evident from what the apostle says, 1Co_11:5, where he lays down rules to regulate this part of their conduct while ministering in the church. (Teaching women and children.) (Adam Clarke)

=========

1 Corinthians 14:34
Women. This injunction applies not only to married women, but to all women, since "every" modifies both "men" and "women" in the corresponding passage (1Co_11:3; 1Co_11:5). *1Co_7:34; +*1Co_11:3; +*1Co_11:5, +Exo_15:20, 1Sa_2:1-10, 2Ki_22:14, Mar_12:42; Mar_14:9, Luk_2:36-38; Luk_8:3, *Rom_16:1-3; *Rom_16:6; *Rom_16:12; *Rom_16:15, Eph_5:22, **Php_4:2; **Php_4:3, Col_3:18, +*1Ti_2:9; +*1Ti_2:11; +*1Ti_2:12, Tit_2:4-5, 1Pe_3:1-8, 2Jn_1:1.

keep silence. The "silence" demanded here is not absolute; it applies specifically to teaching whenever it places a woman in authority over men. This command to silence is a command of the Lord (1Co_14:37) for all churches of the saints (1Co_14:33). The grounds of authority for this command, given more explicitly in 1Ti_2:11-12 and 1Co_11:2-16, are (1) the law of God, considered in (a) the order of creation of man and woman (Gen_2:18, etc. 1Co_11:8-9); (b) the submission of woman to the headship of man (1Co_11:8-9, 1Ti_2:11), though like the subordinate relationship of Jesus the Son of God to God the Father, this by no means denies their equality before God (+*1Co_11:3, Gal_3:28); (c) the complete or thorough deception of the woman (2Co_11:3 g. 1Ti_2:14 g), in apparent reference to the disastrous consequences of reversing God’s order of submission and headship. (Cross references)
.
 
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