Why evolution and the Bible don't mix

[mhess13]

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned
MAN introduced death into the world because of sin

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

If evolution is true, slow gradual changes over millions of years of death brought man into the world. The Bible and evolution are teaching 2 different things. Note that the Bible calls death an enemy

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

When reading 1COR15 you can clearly see that PHYSICAL death is being discussed and it is described as an enemy that Christ has defeated through his resurrection. PRAISE HIM!
So then you cannot have death in the world (as evolution teaches) millions of years before Adam's sin. BOTH EVOLUTION AND THE BIBLE CANNOT BE TRUE-they teach different things!

Rom 8:18-19 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Because of death and sin the whole creation is futile according to the Bible.


Rom 8:20-22 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

But we know that during the Millennial Reign of Christ Or if you are an amillennialist during the new heavens and the new earth; the creation will be restored. DEATH because of sin is what wrecked the creation.

THEISTIC evolution seriously downplays the fall of man. Without a clear understanding of how huge the Fall was, how can we fully grasp the work of the atonement? Evolution wars against the plan of salvation.

Can a TE be saved? Of course, but TE's have a very unbiblical view of the Fall and it's effects.

 

[seebs]

I have a question... What if, in fact, you're right, and we don't understand the Fall... But what if none of us really fully understand it?

Maybe it's more complicated than that.

The problem here is that you're taking a specific interpretation of the Fall, and asserting it to be Biblical, and then asserting that contrary beliefs are unbiblical, when in fact, they are often also rooted in the Bible; they merely interpret it differently than you do.

Every position I've yet heard on this issue does at least some inference and guessing and getting around what the Bible "really" says.

 

[PaladinValer]

Theistic Evolution doesn't downplay a darn thing. How little you understand TEs and evolution...

 

[mhess13]

Theistic Evolution doesn't downplay a darn thing. How little you understand TEs and evolution...

Give me scripture to defend your view. I'm coming at this from a perspective of what the Bible says not science. I have given plain scripture and a well reasoned argument to show that evolution isn't scriptural. You cannot read the Bible and come to the conclusion that God used evolution.

You would do well to use SCRIPTURE to show me where death had been around for millions of years BEFORE sin.

BOTTOM LINE TE's place death before sin. Yes that does downplay LOTS of darn things

 

[rmwilliamsll]

Look at the logic of your position for a moment.

If the curse was physical death, (in that day you shall surely die) rather than spiritual death (which is the customary way to interpret it), then Jesus's sacrifice on the cross, as well as His active obedience and incarnation was designed by God to undo physical death. And not just physical death of people, but the physical death of any living thing. For the doctrine of federal headship, which is the ideas from Romans 5,

Federal Headship also finds its place in the Epistle of Romans when Paul says in Rom. 5:12-14,

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13(For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come."

from: http://www.carm.org/doctrine/federal.htm

which draw the parallels between the first Adam and the second righteous Adam=Jesus. But it is clear that animals are not saved. So Jesus died to save people, i won't even begin to argue for the elect only but leave it at people.

But you're making sin preceed all physical death make the atonement not just universal but universal for all living things. Something contradicted by many verses.

 

[PaladinValer]

Problem with Creationism:

Certain species of life live for less than 24 hours. A whole generation of them would have physically died before Adam and Eve Fell. Hense, the Fall couldn't have caused physical death because life had always died before and, to be honest, they haven't consumed from the Tree of Life, which implies they were already mortal.

The Fall caused spiritual death; that our souls are no longer whole. We are not innocent any longer; we cannot make perfect choices on our own. Why? Our souls broke when Adam and Eve sinned and all human souls retain this original sin. Without God's help, our souls cannot heal, and nothing imperfect can be in heaven. Thus, the wages of sin is spiritual death, for the Resurrection brings all, not just the righteous or the wicked, to life. Through the Christ, all have life. Only through the Christ however can a person's spiritual death be voided.

Basic Christian theology, held for a long, long time by the Church.

 

[mhess13]

Problem with Creationism:

Certain species of life live for less than 24 hours. A whole generation of them would have physically died before Adam and Eve Fell. Hense, the Fall couldn't have caused physical death because life had always died before and, to be honest, they haven't consumed from the Tree of Life, which implies they were already mortal.

The Fall caused spiritual death; that our souls are no longer whole. We are not innocent any longer; we cannot make perfect choices on our own. Why? Our souls broke when Adam and Eve sinned and all human souls retain this original sin. Without God's help, our souls cannot heal, and nothing imperfect can be in heaven. Thus, the wages of sin is spiritual death, for the Resurrection brings all, not just the righteous or the wicked, to life. Through the Christ, all have life. Only through the Christ however can a person's spiritual death be voided.

Basic Christian theology, held for a long, long time by the Church.

Yes we're all Christians here and understand all about spiritual death. This discussion is about physical death which was brough on by the Fall.

Give me scripture to back up your views. Give some scripture to prove that physical death is not an enemy. Give scripture to prove that millions of years of death, disease, and suffering took place before sin. Show me scripture to prove that Adam would have died physically even if he didn't sin.

 

[Reepicheep]

I have a question... What if, in fact, you're right, and we don't understand the Fall... But what if none of us really fully understand it?

That's quite a scary thought...

 

[PaladinValer]

Scripture has nothing to do with science, period. That has always been the orthodox position of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. You won't find the science of computers in there either, yet you type on one.

Just because the Bible doesn't mention it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. That's the Fallacy of Appealing to Ignorance.

If you want to believe in the only 100 year-old belief in literalism, that's your choice. Don't expect the majority of Christians to reject 2000 years of orthodoxy however.

 

[mhess13]

Scripture has nothing to do with science, period. That has always been the orthodox position of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. You won't find the science of computers in there either, yet you type on one.

Just because the Bible doesn't mention it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. That's the Fallacy of Appealing to Ignorance.

If you want to believe in the only 100 year-old belief in literalism, that's your choice. Don't expect the majority of Christians to reject 2000 years of orthodoxy however.

This isn't a debate about science. I've already told you that. This is a debate about what the Bible teaches. I've been asked my certain people to explain my view in a "non-flaming" way as to why evolution is not compatible w/Christianity. I have laid out a scriptural argument which you are unable to refute.
If you want to argue science, there's plenty of other threads. But this thread is only on what the Bible teaches.
You are obviously more versed in your textbooks than your Bible.

 

[PaladinValer]

The Bible is silent on the subject is what I said. That is what my post states, so perhaps you need to read more carefully?

And that doesn't change the fact (yes, its a fact) that religion and science cannot "deal" with each other. Science cannot prove or disprove a purely theological belief; it is beyond its scope. Likewise, a purely theological belief deals with such intangible abstracts that are beyond the scope of science.

Thus, your premise is unsound and logically invalid.

 

[Yahweh Nissi]

Yes we're all Christians here and understand all about spiritual death. This discussion is about physical death which was brough on by the Fall.

Give me scripture to back up your views. Give some scripture to prove that physical death is not an enemy. Give scripture to prove that millions of years of death, disease, and suffering took place before sin. Show me scripture to prove that Adam would have died physically even if he didn't sin.

God gave plants to Adam and Eve for food. Therefore, according to the Bible, there was physical death before the Fall - of plant cells and plant organisms (and, indeed, potentially fungi, seaweed, etc).

And, as has been pointed out by others, when Jesus talks about His main task of salvation, He says things like:-

John 6
49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

Or, possibly the most famous verse of all, John 3:16 :-
"So God loved the world, that he gave his only-begotton Son, to the end that all that believe in him should not perish, but have everlasring life"

(emphasis mine)

Jesus' main work of salvation was to undo the wrong done at the Fall - that if man disobeyed God's commands, he would die. Jesus talks of undoing this death, but it clearly means a spiritual death, because believers do die.

So, the Bible clearly states there was physical death before the Fall, and when Jesus talks of salvation, righting the wrong of the Fall, he is clearly talking about spiritual death.

The Bible seems to be quite clear on the matter.

God bless,
YN.

 

[mhess13]

God gave plants to Adam and Eve for food. Therefore, according to the Bible, there was physical death before the Fall - of plant cells and plant organisms (and, indeed, potentially fungi, seaweed, etc).

And, as has been pointed out by others, when Jesus talks about His main task of salvation, He says things like:-

John 6
49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

Or, possibly the most famous verse of all, John 3:16 :-
"So God loved the world, that he gave his only-begotton Son, to the end that all that believe in him should not perish, but have everlasring life"

(emphasis mine)

Jesus' main work of salvation was to undo the wrong done at the Fall - that if man disobeyed God's commands, he would die. Jesus talks of undoing this death, but it clearly means a spiritual death, because believers do die.

So, the Bible clearly states there was physical death before the Fall, and when Jesus talks of salvation, righting the wrong of the Fall, he is clearly talking about spiritual death.

The Bible seems to be quite clear on the matter.

God bless,
YN.

Plants are not alive in a Biblical sense. They are a self replicating food source. The haven't got the breath of life and they have no blood. Plants are never spoken of as dying in scripturer. They fade and wither, but never die in the sense as humans and animals. All animals and man were vegetarians in the Garden, humans were not to eat meat until after the flood. This further proves that death was not part of God's original creation, but was an enemy, an intruder, brought in by sin.
Furthermore, insects may not even be alive in a biblical sense-I don't know. That's a good topic to study up on.

I agree w/ you about spiritual death. But what you are saying is that Adam would have died physically even if he didn't sin. Why then is death an enemy? (1cor15) What you are saying is that sickness, disease, death and suffering were here long before sin. What does this make God? How do you explain cancer, gout, heart disease to an unbeliever?????????????? With your logic, this suffering and sickness was part of God's very good creation.

However, when I explain to an unbeliever that Death and sickness was brought on because of sin, a light clicks. It makes sense to them that God is good and didn't create us to be sick and die.The effects of the Fall were enormous!!!!!!!!!!! They begin to see sin as it is. They then have hope of the glorious resurrection and the restoration of all things.

 

[PaladinValer]

Spiritual death, which is sin, is the enemy.

 

[Truth of God]

I DEFINATELY AGREE WITH mhess13!!

THE EFFECTS OF THE FALL WERE HUGE... AND ETERNAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AND YES, GOD NEVER MADE ADAM TO GET CANCER ETC. SO, THAT IS FROM SIN...
GOD IS A LOVING GOD, WHO WILL NEVER WANT ANY OF HIS BELOVED CREATIONS TO BE IN PAIN OR DIE UNSAVED.
GOD WANTS US (HIS CHILDREN) TO BE HAPPY AND JOYFUL!!!!
GOD IS TRULY GREAT!!!!!
I CAN ONLY PRAISE AND LIFT HIS NAME..................

 

[rmwilliamsll]

God gave plants to Adam and Eve for food. Therefore, according to the Bible, there was physical death before the Fall - of plant cells and plant organisms (and, indeed, potentially fungi, seaweed, etc).

And, as has been pointed out by others, when Jesus talks about His main task of salvation, He says things like:-

John 6
49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

Or, possibly the most famous verse of all, John 3:16 :-
"So God loved the world, that he gave his only-begotton Son, to the end that all that believe in him should not perish, but have everlasring life"

(emphasis mine)

Jesus' main work of salvation was to undo the wrong done at the Fall - that if man disobeyed God's commands, he would die. Jesus talks of undoing this death, but it clearly means a spiritual death, because believers do die.

So, the Bible clearly states there was physical death before the Fall, and when Jesus talks of salvation, righting the wrong of the Fall, he is clearly talking about spiritual death.

The Bible seems to be quite clear on the matter.

God bless,
YN.

I'd like to continue the thought on this posting.
God says, that Jesus came so that Christians would not perish.
if physical death was what was in mind, then Christians would not die, but obviously they do. therefore the atonement can not have in mind physical death, either primarily or in some significant way for it would be ineffectual if so.

so the death that Jesus saves us from must be spiritual death. Separation from God not just in this life but in the life to come. How else would you explain Christian's continuing to die? Physical death is the result of sin, fine if you contain that to human beings who are in Adam. Nowhere are we expected to believe that anything else living is joined to Adam, is united in Christ in his death and resurrection but people.

----

 

[LewisWildermuth]

So... Am I to not accept that the sun is the center of the solarsystem because there is no Biblical verse that says so? Infact there are more verses to suggest that the Earth is the center and not moving.

Are we not to try and stop locust swarms because it was suggested by the Bible that they are God's wrath?

I believe that God did create, I also believe that God does not lie, so as I look at His creation I have to assume that it is telling the truth. Creation does not agree with the theory of creationism, so I must deny creationism or say that God is a liar through His Creation. I'd rather throw out creationism than call God a liar. What about you?

 

[Faith In God]

I'd like to continue the thought on this posting.
God says, that Jesus came so that Christians would not perish.
if physical death was what was in mind, then Christians would not die, but obviously they do. therefore the atonement can not have in mind physical death, either primarily or in some significant way for it would be ineffectual if so.

so the death that Jesus saves us from must be spiritual death. Separation from God not just in this life but in the life to come. How else would you explain Christian's continuing to die? Physical death is the result of sin, fine if you contain that to human beings who are in Adam. Nowhere are we expected to believe that anything else living is joined to Adam, is united in Christ in his death and resurrection but people.

----

Christians still die because we have still sinned. He washes the sins away for us in an eternal sense. IE on the day of judgment, we can be judged as innocent. we still literally have sinned, you know.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

Christians still die because we have still sinned. He washes the sins away for us in an eternal sense. IE on the day of judgment, we can be judged as innocent. we still literally have sinned, you know.

you miss the strength of the point.

YEC wish to make physical death the primary curse of Gen in Adam's fall.
If so then Jesus primary purpose of the atonement is to undo this physical death, but obviously this is not the case, for Christians continue to die, something that surprised the first converts in Acts. If it, this death, is spiritual in nature then the system fits together just fine, otherwise Jesus was ineffectual because physical death is not undone in this world. You are confusing cause with effect.

If Adam's physical death was caused by his spiritual death, then undoing spiritual death is the big deal of the atonement. If the curse was physical death then the atonement was misdirected and didnt work for we still die.

i'm not sure how else to word it to capture the essential flow of the thoughts.

 

[herev]

I'd like to continue the thought on this posting.
God says, that Jesus came so that Christians would not perish.
if physical death was what was in mind, then Christians would not die, but obviously they do. therefore the atonement can not have in mind physical death, either primarily or in some significant way for it would be ineffectual if so.

so the death that Jesus saves us from must be spiritual death. Separation from God not just in this life but in the life to come. How else would you explain Christian's continuing to die? Physical death is the result of sin, fine if you contain that to human beings who are in Adam. Nowhere are we expected to believe that anything else living is joined to Adam, is united in Christ in his death and resurrection but people.

----

Amen and Amen--enough of this. By the time of the Fall, Adam and Eve had not eaten from the Tree of Life--there is nothing to suggest that they were immortal--at all. They had been told to be fruitful and multiply-BEFORE the fall--without physical death, the earth as intended by Genesis 1, would soon be overcrowded and no longer Paradis-like. Without death, there would be no need to be fruitful and multiply.
It's biblical, it's sound, it matches scientific research, it is in line with the oldest theology of the church and with the oldest known Jewish writings on Torah. To constantly state that a new theory of literal Creation (new in the sense that it is thousands of years newer than the earliest Christian thoughts) is necessary for proper understanding of the Gospel would mean that prior to the century before last, no one understood the Bible--were they all lost?