why ECT became the dominant view in the west

John M8473 said:

God does not distinguish mass murder from lying. There is no difference between evil and what you call "real" evil.

Whatever is not of faith is sin (Rom 14:23)
Whoever keeps the whole law but stumbles at one point is guilty of them all (James 2:10)

So I do believe that to love fornication is evil. To love lying is evil. I am grateful that I haven't encountered what WE HUMANS consider to be "real" evil, and I do understand what you mean by that. However, I don't think God makes that same distinction. The closer I get to God, the more sensitive my conscience becomes. I can't cheat on my taxes. I can't even lie to get my dog to be an emotional support animal to save money on rent (which is very easy to do). I dunno... I can't violate my conscience any longer --- and I pray God keeps me here! His will be done, not mine.

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I never said what you did wasn't evil. We are all culpable of evil. Read the next verses from my original post you quoted. If you truly loved evil, you would never have come to the light. You may well have committed evil and in your rage/fear/pride (whatever applies), deluded yourself into thinking this is what you truly loved but if you really loved evil as you say, then you would not have been convicted and turned to the light. At the end of the day, you valued truth more than the lie, light more than the dark and goodness more than evil.

John 3:20&21
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

sawdust said:

I never said what you did wasn't evil. We are all culpable of evil. Read the next verses from my original post you quoted. If you truly loved evil, you would never have come to the light. You may well have committed evil and in your rage/fear/pride (whatever applies), deluded yourself into thinking this is what you truly loved but if you really loved evil as you say, then you would not have been convicted and turned to the light. At the end of the day, you valued truth more than the lie, light more than the dark and goodness more than evil.

John 3:20&21
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

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Agreed. What do you suppose caused me to value truth more than the lie? Something inherently good within me? Or God's grace?

If it was me, then your soteriology is off. If it's God's grace, then He can do it for anyone.

I see you segregating "good people" from "bad people" in these comments. Is that an accurate statement?

fhansen said:

Prior to and after Augustine, the church, in both the east and west, believed in ECT, as did nearly all of the early church fathers.

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In my post #25 above your post I quoted and properly cited 12 ECF, including Origen, who believed in Eternal Punishment. For UR to be the predominant belief I would like to see at least 13 properly cited similar ECF quotes, from readily available sources. You will understand if I don't hold my breath.

John M8473 said:

Agreed. What do you suppose caused me to value truth more than the lie? Something inherently good within me? Or God's grace?

If it was me, then your soteriology is off. If it's God's grace, then He can do it for anyone.

I see you segregating "good people" from "bad people" in these comments. Is that an accurate statement?

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No-one is inherently good nor are they inherently evil. Goodness or evil is learned. God's grace in revealing the truth causes you to be free so you can choose which you value. If it were not for grace it would be impossible to know God even existed let alone come to Him. He does not make us believe ie. agree His word is Truth and He certainly can't make us reject His word for He cannot deny Himself. 2 Timothy 2:13 So if you think God is making you agree with Him, you are sadly mistaken. You choose this day.

As to why some people prefer darkness and some prefer light? That is a mystery. At least, for us who love light will never comprehend those who love darkness and vice versa, not ultimately. We can understand why some would choose to live in darkness to a degree. Ignorance, desperation, weakness, fear, pride; all these things will come into play at some point and to some degree but ultimately, when our back is against the wall? Do you think Satan didn't realise he was wrong in the Job affair? Do you think he changed his mind and trusted God's word to be true even when the proof was right under his nose? Do you understand how the Pharisees could call Jesus an instrument of Satan when He healed and restored people to sanity by casting out demons? Those who love the light will never comprehend those who love the dark. And how could we? To reject God is to reject reality, to reject reality is insanity. Who in their right mind truly understands those who are not? At most, we can only accept it is so.

I am segregating in that this is what the word says happens. I don't judge who is saved or who might potentially be saved or not, that's God's domain. We were all unbelievers at some point in our life. But we can say with certainty, those who love darkness refuse to come to the light and will never see eternal life. This is why the lake of fire was created, to keep those who love darkness segregated from those who don't eternally.

If the greatest love ever given (the Cross) cannot convince someone, why a time in fiery torment will change their mind (as universalists seem to think), is beyond my comprehension especially when we could have avoided all this pain and suffering if God could truly make people love Him without respect to who or what they are. Little point in creating freedom if you won't let freedom do it's job and create individuals.

It should be noted that any quote of a Greek document depends of the word κόλασις which means chastisement. Chastisement is not permanent or everlasting if it doesn't correct.

Omniskeptical said:

It should be noted that any quote of a Greek document depends of the word κόλασις which means chastisement. Chastisement is not permanent or everlasting if it doesn't correct.

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Link to: Eastern Greek Orthodox NT
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB, p. 518]​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correct.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correct” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. A noun cannot be translated as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
The word “correction” occurs one time in the N.T.
2 Timothy 3:16 ἐπανόρθωσις/epanorthosis. It looks nothing like kolasis.

Der Alte said:

Link to: Eastern Greek Orthodox NT
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB, p. 518]​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correct.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correct” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. A noun cannot be translated as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
The word “correction” occurs one time in the N.T.
2 Timothy 3:16 ἐπανόρθωσις/epanorthosis. It looks nothing like kolasis.

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It most definitely means correction or chatisement; this the Hellenic definition. Objects that are human can be receive punishment but they don't receive kolasis i.e. penalties.

And the verb;

STRONGS G2849:
κολαζο: present passive participle κολαζόμενος; 1 aorist middle sub. junc. 3 person plural κολάσωνται; (κόλος lopped); in Greek writings:
1. properly, to lop, prune, as trees, wings.
2. to check, curb, restrain.
3. to chastise, correct, punish: so in the N. T.; passive 2 Peter 2:9, and Lachmann in 4; middle to cause to be punished (3Macc. 7:3): Acts 4:21.
THAYER’S GREEK LEXICON, Electronic Database.
Copyright © 2002, 2003, 2006, 2011 by Biblesoft, Inc.
All rights reserved. Used by permission. BibleSoft.com

BLB Scripture Index of Thayer's​

Acts4:212 Peter2:9

makes the kill.

Omniskeptical said:

It most definitely means correction or chatisement; this the Hellenic definition. Objects that are human can be receive punishment but they don't receive kolasis i.e. penalties.
And the verb;
STRONGS G2849:
κολαζο: present passive participle κολαζόμενος; 1 aorist middle sub. junc. 3 person plural κολάσωνται; (κόλος lopped); in Greek writings:
1. properly, to lop, prune, as trees, wings.
2. to check, curb, restrain.
3. to chastise, correct, punish: so in the N. T.; passive 2 Peter 2:9, and Lachmann in 4; middle to cause to be punished (3Macc. 7:3): Acts 4:21.
THAYER’S GREEK LEXICON, Electronic Database.
Copyright © 2002, 2003, 2006, 2011 by Biblesoft, Inc.
All rights reserved. Used by permission. BibleSoft.com

BLB Scripture Index of Thayer's​

Acts4:212 Peter2:9
makes the kill.

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I see that you have done what many here do searched the 'net' until you find something which seems to support your assumptions/presuppositions. Please note that this specific word "kolazo" does not occur in the NT. In the EOB, which I have quoted, "kolasis" in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18 is translated "punishment."
See EOB at below link.

Orthodox New Testament : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The Eastern / Orthodox Bible: New TestamentBased on the Septuagint and the Patriarchal Text

archive.org

And here is the defintion from Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich Greek lexicon. This represents about 120-160 years of combined scholarship.

Der Alte said:

Please note that this specific word "kolazo" does not occur in the NT.

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It has a stong's number. Here are the 2 occurrences of the verb.

(Act 4:21 KJV) So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish[G2849] them, because of the people: for all [men] glorified God for that which was done.
(2Pe 2:9 KJV) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:[G2849]

Der Alte said:

Go back and read my post I did NOT say they were native speakers of a dead language.

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Modern Greek is not a continuation of Koine Greek. Yes, you said they were natives of a dead language.

Der Alte said:

The noun aion means eternity. The adjective aionios means eternal. You can verify this by clicking on the link to the EOB in my previous post and look up the occurrences of "eternal." Here is a link to my previous post where I posted the complete definition from BDAG lexicon which represents 120-160 years of combined Greek scholarship.

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It is useless to argue that God gives out ECT, or for annihilationism. God doesn't do it, and the guilty will never be convinced that he does.

Omniskeptical said:

Modern Greek is not a continuation of Koine Greek. Yes, you said they were natives of a dead language.


It is useless to argue that God gives out ECT, or for annihilationism. God doesn't do it, and the guilty will never be convinced that he does.

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Koine -> Byzantine -> Modern

I speak and read Koine and Byzantine for church and while Modern Greek is different, there are still basic elements in Modern Greek that are present.

PsaltiChrysostom said:

Koine -> Byzantine -> Modern

I speak and read Koine and Byzantine for church and while Modern Greek is different, there are still basic elements in Modern Greek that are present.

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Byzantine is Koine. Modern is an artificial creole revision.

Omniskeptical said:

Modern Greek is not a continuation of Koine Greek. Yes, you said they were natives of a dead language.
It is useless to argue that God gives out ECT, or for annihilationism. God doesn't do it, and the guilty will never be convinced that he does.

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I never used the phrase "dead language." I believe Jesus not anonymous people online who probably couldn't conjugate a Greek verb if their life depended on it.

This is again related to Hebrews 7:1-28 and 2 Corinthians 3:1-18

It also calls to mind Ephesians 3:16-19

When we look into the Torah too much we often fail to accept that God is love, and thus never know that love which is beyond knowledge...

1 Corinthians 4:1-13 tells us the nature of an apostle, and John 17:20-26 is a mystical request...

1 John 4:7-21 makes clear that perfecting love prepares us for Judgement.

Instead we condemn others because our hearts are hardened.

Der Alte said:

I never used the phrase "dead language." I believe Jesus not anonymous people online who probably couldn't conjugate a Greek verb if their life depended on it.

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You believe he is a tortoise who is coming soon. Conjugation means little if don't know the difference between aorist, and complete action.

And Koine Greek is a dead language, because they are at best few who know [it] in its entirety, if few at all.

Omniskeptical said:

You believe he is a tortoise who is coming soon. Conjugation means little if don't know the difference between aorist, and complete action.

And Koine Greek is a dead language, because they are at best few who know in its entirety, if few at all.

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So the millions of us that use Koine Greek in our services every day don't count?

PsaltiChrysostom said:

So the millions of us that use Koine Greek in our services every day don't count?

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Do they understand it? The Koine article is an indefinite article like the Greek and Aramaic articles, for example. The article is rarely before proper names such Jesus, John, Jacob etc suggesting the textbooks are wrong. I would use citations to prove this but, alas, I don't own Logos. It would be hunt and peck.

Omniskeptical said:

You believe he is a tortoise who is coming soon. Conjugation means little if don't know the difference between aorist, and complete action.
And Koine Greek is a dead language, because they are at best few who know [it] in its entirety, if few at all.

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Your 1st 2 sentences are meaningless. That being the case, as you insist, then we should not read any more arguments from you about the meaning of words in the NT. My understanding is Greek has been the language of Greece since the beginning. Greek might have undergone some changes over centuries but, much in the same manner as English, but modern scholars know the meaning of archaic words.

Omniskeptical said:

Do they understand it? The Koine article is an indefinite article like the Greek and Aramaic articles, for example. The article is rarely before proper names such Jesus, John, Jacob etc suggesting the textbooks are wrong. I would use citations to prove this but, alas, I don't own Logos. It would be hunt and peck.

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I've been a Greek Orthodox chanter for 20 years. I'm not suggesting that Koine is completely interchangeable with Demotic Greek, but its not unintelligible for modern Greeks.

PsaltiChrysostom said:

I've been a Greek Orthodox chanter for 20 years. I'm not suggesting that Koine is completely interchangeable with Demotic Greek, but its not unintelligible for modern Greeks.

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How does this prove preservation?