Why don't you just leave?

[tadoflamb]

I've heard the question posed to the members of this forum several times by our *ahem* traditional *ahem* catholic friends. It goes something like this, "If you can't accept the Catholic faith in it's entirety, why don't you just leave"? I guess the assumption is that there's enough protestant denominations out there that it would be easy enough to stop trying to drag down the Church and find one that fits more closely to our beliefs

I confess, I've asked the same question myself in regards to some of the Catholics at my liberal parish. Catholics who know and uphold the wholeness of the faith are pretty hard to find around there.

So, why don't they just leave?

I've got my own ideas. I'll share them later.

 

[Shiloh Raven]

And what is this, "If you can't accept the Catholic faith in it's entirety, why don't you just leave"? suppose to mean exactly and why would they think that the Catholics in this forum do not accept the Catholic faith in its entirety? Who are they to say otherwise? I think it takes audacity for a Catholic, who is not a member of this faith group, to come into TLT and say something like that or to say that the Catholics in this forum are not part of true Catholicism. Seriously, who are they to come into this forum and say something like that?

 

[Davidnic]

why would they think that the Catholics in this forum do not accept the Catholic faith in its entirety?

Well the SOP of the area itself is an indication that the fullness of the Catholic Faith as taught by Rome is not accepted: "This area allows for what would normally be considered by Rome dissent from the teachings the Magisterium of the Catholic Church."

That is not normally understood as dissent by a message board, that is normally understood by canon law and Rome.

Liberal Catholicism accepts Liberal Theology...that the deposit of Faith can change to conform to the world. Not in a development of of Dogma sense in an accepted way...but in the sense that Dogma can change because it is based in social norms and not revealed Truth in itself. That is not a concept the Catholic Church will ever allow.

Now one can argue that there are Catholics on the other side of the argument rejecting things that they should not. But yes...there are some unchangeable things that are promoted here and the SOP allows. By the very definition, that is not accepting the Catholic faith in its entirety.

People keep asking what a Liberal Catholic is. A Liberal Catholic has nothing to do at all with politics. A liberal Catholic embraces liberal theology. For a Catholic that means that they believe that the Deposit of Faith is, in part, based on social factors of the time of Christ and after and can change in it essence. Not that we grow in understanding of it but that the Deposit of Faith is changeable in its clean and definite teachings because we now know better.

In that...yes, they reject part of the fullness of Faith in Tradition and Scripture. Do others on a far conservative edge to it to...yep. But that is a different matter.

No matter what TLT is socially or politically, it is (intended to be) a safe haven for the Liberal Catholic beliefs. Beliefs that, By their definition, are at odds with Rome.

So the SOP itself indicates a rejection of the Fullness of Faith as Rome has constantly defined it. Now that is not to say they do not have reasons for believing as they do. But I think it is fairly clear some do reject parts of the Deposit of Faith and the Teachings of the Church considered unalterable.

 

[Shiloh Raven]

What I was actually referring to and venting about was traditional (conservative) Catholics coming into the Liberal Catholic safe haven of the Lord's Table and insulting the members of this forum. We had a debacle just yesterday when a thread was started in this forum and it was clearly stated that Liberal Catholicism was not part of true Catholicism.

 

[dzheremi]

From an outsider's perspective (by which I mean mine), it seems like they're still there because Roman Catholicism allows them space to be there. This is just a messageboard, so I don't know what can really be said about the Church of a billion people based on what this board says, but the OP mentions that these people are around in his own parish, which is presumably a brick and mortar building which exists in the real world. And I remember when I was Roman Catholic, it was known in the little community in which I lived in Oregon that this particular RC parish was the 'liberal' one, whereas this other one was the 'conservative' one, and so forth. (There might have been more than two; I don't remember, but it wasn't a big city.)

As per David's post above, these may not be meant as political labels of convenience, but are in any case manifested through the worship of a given parish, which itself is at least meant to be a reflection of its theology (lex orandi, lex credendi, as the saying goes). So by even having 'liberal' and 'conservative' wings or niches in the first place, you're in essence answering your own question. Why don't they just leave? Because they're a part of the modern Roman Catholic Church, regardless of whether or not anyone thinks they really are or should be.

What's the alternative, at this point? Some would call your current pope, Pope Francis, one of 'them'. Would anyone suggest, based on that entirely subjective viewpoint, that you don't in fact have a Pope, or shouldn't have a Pope, or the Pope isn't really Catholic, or whatever "why don't you just leave?" is really saying, depending on who's asking?

 

[Genersis]

*Shrugs*
So some people feel like they or the church is dirtied by the behaviour/beliefs of certain individuals that identify as members.

I think most social groups has this dynamic in play to certain extents. There are always sub-groups, some tolerated more than others by other sub-groups.

Not sure what the Catholic approach to such is.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

OK

 

[Fantine]

In my experience (and there is always a possibility my experience is atypical) the people who ask, "Why don't you leave the Church, O progressive one?" are converts.

So the easiest answer would be, "I was here first, so there!"

Because I live in the Bible Belt, most converts were previously Baptists, Assembly of God, Church of Christ members, and many of them carry that most unwelcome fundamentalism along with them when they are baptized.

Then of course, they just left their own churches, so the idea of changing denominations is obviously "no biggie" in their eyes. They don't consider things like alienating extended family members, breaking their hearts, etc.

They also don't consider that for many of us, the thorns in their sides, there is no "perfect" religion. I have been a Catholic for more than 60 years (with a ten year hiatus in the 1970's) but I haven't found any religions that would be a perfect fit for me--and the evangelical faiths so predominant in my geographical area would not fit at all.

Yes, I have history and family and cultural tradition with Catholicism, but I also have a lengthy and profound set of experiences, some which I would call miraculous, based around my Catholic faith. Why should I leave because some newcomers want to pray only with purists?

As I said, this is not meant to offend anyone. It is my first person experience, which might be typical....or atypical...

 

[The Brown Brink]

Why be offended by opposition?

You can take the opportunity of being questioned to present your position.

It's like taking a test.
If you know the answers, it's no sweat.

If you know why you're right...
Say so.

 

[Fantine]

That's the whole point. There IS no "right" or "wrong" in this situation.

If someone wants to worship in the Catholic Church with me, I pray that he or she will have a transformational encounter with Jesus every time. I'm the organist who sits on my perch playing the Communion hymn praying for the people in the congregation who are hurting--because they're hurting, not based on their liberalism or conservatism. Because they are experiencing sorrow, and I am a compassionate person, and their sorrow diminishes all of us in the body of Christ.

I do not confront people who think progressives should leave by saying, "You're the convert. Why don't YOU leave?" This thread asked for an answer and I spoke from the heart, but in real life, I only share my heart with people who will cherish my gift gently.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

Well the SOP of the area itself is an indication that the fullness of the Catholic Faith as taught by Rome is not accepted: "This area allows for what would normally be considered by Rome dissent from the teachings the Magisterium of the Catholic Church."

That is not normally understood as dissent by a message board, that is normally understood by canon law and Rome.

Liberal Catholicism accepts Liberal Theology...that the deposit of Faith can change to conform to the world. Not in a development of of Dogma sense in an accepted way...but in the sense that Dogma can change because it is based in social norms and not revealed Truth in itself. That is not a concept the Catholic Church will ever allow.

Now one can argue that there are Catholics on the other side of the argument rejecting things that they should not. But yes...there are some unchangeable things that are promoted here and the SOP allows. By the very definition, that is not accepting the Catholic faith in its entirety.

People keep asking what a Liberal Catholic is. A Liberal Catholic has nothing to do at all with politics. A liberal Catholic embraces liberal theology. For a Catholic that means that they believe that the Deposit of Faith is, in part, based on social factors of the time of Christ and after and can change in it essence. Not that we grow in understanding of it but that the Deposit of Faith is changeable in its clean and definite teachings because we now know better.

In that...yes, they reject part of the fullness of Faith in Tradition and Scripture. Do others on a far conservative edge to it to...yep. But that is a different matter.

No matter what TLT is socially or politically, it is (intended to be) a safe haven for the Liberal Catholic beliefs. Beliefs that, By their definition, are at odds with Rome.

So the SOP itself indicates a rejection of the Fullness of Faith as Rome has constantly defined it. Now that is not to say they do not have reasons for believing as they do. But I think it is fairly clear some do reject parts of the Deposit of Faith and the Teachings of the Church considered unalterable.

Good to see you posting on TLT again David.

 

[Davidnic]

Good to see you posting on TLT again David.

I usually have more time in summer to post more on the forums. So you might see me fellowship more.

 

[The Brown Brink]

I don't mean to say anyone is "right"...
I was referring to the objection in the original post that anyone should ask a certain question...

The expression of ideas refines ideas.
This is good.

If someone asks you a question, just answer it.

Your opinion is as valid as anyone's.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

I don't go because if I did, it would likely not be to another Christian denomination.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

So you might see me fellowship more.

Now, now....... is that definite David? it sounds rather tentative to me.

 

[Fish and Bread]

I think what I believe *is* the Catholic faith. Rome will catch up with me eventually.

I'm kidding... kind of. However, I do think the long arc trajectory of the Church's history is progressive, and that we haven't hit the top of the divine ladder just yet.

That's by no means an all-encompassing answer or even an executive summary of the main reason I'd usually give, necessarily. It's just one reason of many. I figure I'll give a new one everytime someone starts a thread like this so I don't get bored.

 

[Fish and Bread]

Related:

What is Liberal Catholicism to you?

 

[Robinus]

I've heard the question posed to the members of this forum several times by our *ahem* traditional *ahem* catholic friends. It goes something like this, "If you can't accept the Catholic faith in it's entirety, why don't you just leave"? .

Does ANY Catholic accept the Catholic faith in its entirety , that is a faith based primarily on the person of Jesus Christ and ALL he taught ?

 

[tadoflamb]

And what is this, "If you can't accept the Catholic faith in it's entirety, why don't you just leave"? suppose to mean exactly and why would they think that the Catholics in this forum do not accept the Catholic faith in its entirety? Who are they to say otherwise? I think it takes audacity for a Catholic, who is not a member of this faith group, to come into TLT and say something like that or to say that the Catholics in this forum are not part of true Catholicism. Seriously, who are they to come into this forum and say something like that?

As Catholics there are a number of things to which we must give our docile assent, that is, even if we have difficultly accepting them, we still can't teach against it. As a convert I had the opportunity to learn and to know what I was getting myself into, and as far as I know, I do accept the entirety of the Catholic faith.

I also know that as a convert that we tend to get overly excited. Converting is really exciting and we do have a tendency to want to go tell it on the mountain. Catechism in this country is pretty dismal and one doesn't have to look very far to find a Catholic that doesn't know very much about their faith.

I've managed to mellow out over the years. I still uphold the entirety of the Catholic faith, I just don't see the point of running around pointing out everyone else's errors. My pastor has always emphasized love over the law and in spite the times I believe he's deviated from the faith his congregation is the most generous, loving and accepting group of people I've ever had the privilege of belong to,

You've said some very kind things about me, and I have to say if it's true it's because of my pastor and my faith community.

 

[tadoflamb]

I don't go because if I did, it would likely not be to another Christian denomination.

I've long maintained that if I were to ever leave Catholicism I'd leave this Christianity thing all together. There's nothing there for me.

That said, I've seen how horribly you've been treated on the boards lately and all I can say is, "I'm sorry".