Why don't we ever talk about sin?

[ChesterKhan]

Grace and peace be with you all.

I have a great sense of my own shortcomings as a follower of Christ - a sense that I am most definitely unworthy, that I'm not as good as I could be, that indeed I do sin much against God's own majesty, even if it is by staying up an hour or seven too late. In short, I have a great sense of sin.

Something that troubles me about popular Protestantism is that, while it seems you hear a lot about Jesus saving us and making our lives better - and I do agree - it feels to me like there's not enough emphasis on what exactly He's saving us from. A lot of people are "born again", and "saved", but what from? Why will we go to Hell if we don't proclaim Jesus Christ as Lord? I know the answers; I have read them. But I never hear them (sadly, not even from Catholic pulpits most of the time).

An image of what I mean: A lot of people think the Devil is some horned guy with red skin and a tail carrying a pitchfork. They find this funny, and think something so stupid couldn't possibly exist. But they believe God, if he exists at all in their minds, must be loving and understanding. I don't see how one could believe in God, but not the Devil - or push the Devil into the background.

I do feel confident in God's power. I am certain of Jesus's power to save and to sanctify - to make like Himself. That keeps me going. But I despise sin - mine and others' - and am very aware of its existence. Its vileness causes me to cling more to Christ (though often my weakness gets to me).

Our Lord spoke more of Hell and sin, warned more of it, than anyone in the New Testament.Why is there not more wariness about sin in popular Christianity, today? Or am I just missing something?

 

[Ignatius21]

I'm sure there are a lot of answers to the question. Partly it may be a reaction...overreaction...to the more fundamentalist type of message that preceded this era of pop evangelicalism...fire and brimstone, thumping the Bible, yelling "Yer goin' to HELL fer yer SIN!!!" and the like. Many who wash up on the shores of megachurches and Joel Osteen type "churchianity" came out of backgrounds like that, where the message of sin was so one-sided...the wrath of God against sin presented with so little emphasis on the mercy and forgiveness and compassion of God...that they burned out. Then ended up going lopsided in a different direction.

I've also met many Catholics who grew up before Vatican II, who were instilled with a mindset that any little sin might be mortal, might be enough to kill the grace in their souls. Some developed Luther complexes, feeling like they were on a treadmill of sin and penance. One Reformed pastor I knew, who'd grown up in that sort of Catholic upbringing, told me he'd reached a point where he figured the only way he'd ever get to heaven, would be to "trip on his way out of the confessional and drown in holy water." Funny...but not.

Even in Orthodoxy, where I've landed, there seems to be something of a trend to dismiss the notion of sin, and God's wrath against it, as "a Western thing." They state that in the East, sin is looked at "holistically" or "like a disease, not just the breaking of law." Which is true, the emphasis has been more in that direction. But there's a big difference between a runny nose and a terminal sickness. Sin is the latter.

Maybe the bottom line is, we who sin would always prefer to have our ears tickled and start to think "well, maybe God made me this way...I'm not so bad...God is love, so he isn't really angry about sin, right?" Wanting to fill their churches, pastors and priests can take the route of telling people that just really wants them to be happy, to be successful, to be better husbands and wives, or better citizens, or whatever. That would be like doctors filling their hospitals by telling cancer patients that they really just need to exercise more and do some yoga to feel better.

I've always found the "right" attitude expressed in a prayer of St. John of Damascus:

Master and lover of mankind, will this bed be my grave? Or will you again enlighten my condemned soul with the light of day? I see the grave lying before me; death stands before me. I fear your judgment, Lord, and the endless torments, yet I do not cease to do evil! Lord my God, I continually anger you and your most pure mother, and all the heavenly powers. I know indeed, Lord, that I am not worthy of your love towards mankind, but rather of every condemnation and torment. But save me, Lord, whether I wish it or not. For if you save the just, it is nothing great, and if you have mercy upon the pure, it is nothing marvelous, for they are worthy of your mercy. But show the wonder of your mercy upon me, a sinner, manifesting your love towards all mankind, and do not let my evil nature overcome your grace and ineffable kindness. Rightly order my steps according to your will. Enlighten my eyes, Christ my God, that I may not sleep in death, lest my enemy say: I have prevailed against him!

 

[Steeno7]

Funny, I wonder just the opposite, I wonder why there is so much talk about sin by Christians. To me it seems like Christians are obsessed with sins and sinning. Just a persons perspective suppose.

 

[ChesterKhan]

Funny, I wonder just the opposite, I wonder why there is so much talk about sin by Christians. To me it seems like Christians are obsessed with sins and sinning. Just a persons perspective suppose.

If it helps, I hear the "Jesus saved me" and "when mercy found me" perspective from K-LOV and from my Evangelical Protestant relatives. I mean, God love 'em that they've found God, and God has found them and revealed His love to them. But I felt worried, for them or myself, because while they seem happy as clams, here am I, concerned (hopefully not obsessively) about my sin.

I'm not on the scrupulous treadmill Luther was on. I do go to confession every week, but I don't think I would if it were not for one mortal sin (masturbation) that is a constant thorn in my side. I do for that, and while I am at it, I ask the Lord (through the priest) for strength to fight other, less serious sins (such as gluttony and laziness).

I feel I know my position well enough - I am a sinner, and, as St. Patrick said, "like a stone, lying in deep mud". And mud feels nice, but I do wish to be "placed on the top of the wall". "And therefore I ought to shout out aloud and return something to the Lord for the great mercy he has shown me". For, weak and meagre though I am, I know He loves me, and desires my good as much as anyone's, and these powerfully. And I also know how far I have before I meet His love.

And every even trivial act of selfishness is a sin - however small a sin. It will have to be cleansed before I can be with the Master, for nothing unclean can be with Him. But in this world, which is perpetually changing, it's to be expected I will have deficiencies, great and small. As long as I reject them and fight them, and of course God loves me. This applies, of course, to all men.

 

[Steeno7]

If it helps, I hear the "Jesus saved me" and "when mercy found me" perspective from K-LOV and from my Evangelical Protestant relatives. I mean, God love 'em that they've found God, and God has found them and revealed His love to them. But I felt worried, for them or myself, because while they seem happy as clams, here am I, concerned (hopefully not obsessively) about my sin.

I'm not on the scrupulous treadmill Luther was on. I do go to confession every week, but I don't think I would if it were not for one mortal sin (masturbation) that is a constant thorn in my side. I do for that, and while I am at it, I ask the Lord (through the priest) for strength to fight other, less serious sins (such as gluttony and laziness).

I feel I know my position well enough - I am a sinner, and, as St. Patrick said, "like a stone, lying in deep mud". And mud feels nice, but I do wish to be "placed on the top of the wall". "And therefore I ought to shout out aloud and return something to the Lord for the great mercy he has shown me". For, weak and meagre though I am, I know He loves me, and desires my good as much as anyone's, and these powerfully. And I also know how far I have before I meet His love.

And every even trivial act of selfishness is a sin - however small a sin. It will have to be cleansed before I can be with the Master, for nothing unclean can be with Him. But in this world, which is perpetually changing, it's to be expected I will have deficiencies, great and small. As long as I reject them and fight them, and of course God loves me. This applies, of course, to all men.

Well, if you see yourself as a sinner, if that is your identity, then the most logical and natural thing for you to do is to sin. Thank God He doesn't see us as sinners, but as totally forgiven, righteous saints. We all need to learn to see ourselves as we now are in Christ.

Victory over the flesh is never won by us, it is always given in Christ. The victory is His, and we share in that victory through Christ, 1 Cor. 15:57. Jesus does not sin. Our response-ability is to continue to walk by faith, trusting and depending on Him, and as we do, He produces His own godly sinless character in us and through us.

 

[bling]

Grace and peace be with you all.

I have a great sense of my own shortcomings as a follower of Christ - a sense that I am most definitely unworthy, that I'm not as good as I could be, that indeed I do sin much against God's own majesty, even if it is by staying up an hour or seven too late. In short, I have a great sense of sin.

Something that troubles me about popular Protestantism is that, while it seems you hear a lot about Jesus saving us and making our lives better - and I do agree - it feels to me like there's not enough emphasis on what exactly He's saving us from. A lot of people are "born again", and "saved", but what from? Why will we go to Hell if we don't proclaim Jesus Christ as Lord? I know the answers; I have read them. But I never hear them (sadly, not even from Catholic pulpits most of the time).

An image of what I mean: A lot of people think the Devil is some horned guy with red skin and a tail carrying a pitchfork. They find this funny, and think something so stupid couldn't possibly exist. But they believe God, if he exists at all in their minds, must be loving and understanding. I don't see how one could believe in God, but not the Devil - or push the Devil into the background.

I do feel confident in God's power. I am certain of Jesus's power to save and to sanctify - to make like Himself. That keeps me going. But I despise sin - mine and others' - and am very aware of its existence. Its vileness causes me to cling more to Christ (though often my weakness gets to me).

Our Lord spoke more of Hell and sin, warned more of it, than anyone in the New Testament.Why is there not more wariness about sin in popular Christianity, today? Or am I just missing something?

This is a huge subject and I agree it is neglected from the pulpit but not from scripture. There are many questions that need to be addressed concerning sin, which religious leaders seem to avoid.

The reasons I see stemming from a poor understanding of: God’s objective, man’s objective, why God created man in the first place, the purpose of sin, human nature, Adam and Eve, forgiveness and atonement.

All these are huge subjects in themselves, so where do we begin?

Is man’s objective in this life to: “Never ever sin?” If it is all have failed, so why did God not start over?

Tell me this:

Would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was totally dependent on your personal ability to be totally obedient (the way it was in the Garden before man sinned) or in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your humbly accepting His charity (the way it is for your right now)?

If God is this totally unselfish being (Love itself) than would God be wanting/needing something from His creation or would God be trying to gift those, who will accept His gifts, with unbelievable charitable gifts (including Godly type Love, heaven, eternal life, purpose and fellowship)?

What part does sin play in helping man fulfill man’s earthly objective?

How does the Christian turn his past transgressions into assets (Look how Paul used his past sinful life)?

Why does a Christian want to stop sinning?

How does a Christian keep from sinning again?

Who is to blame for my sinning (I am a Christian)?

What benefit would there come from my not sinning again?

Do we blame Adam and Eve, satan, lack of fellowship with God, lack of personal power, the world around us, bad luck or being human?

How big and bad are our sins and why do they need to be so bad (God’s fault)?

Atonement is needed, but that is an even bigger subject.

 

[ChesterKhan]

This is a huge subject and I agree it is neglected from the pulpit but not from scripture. There are many questions that need to be addressed concerning sin, which religious leaders seem to avoid.

...All these are huge subjects in themselves, so where do we begin?

Good point. But naturally that never stopped us from talking about numerous other things, such as why Jesus had to suffer and die, etc.

Would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was totally dependent on your personal ability to be totally obedient (the way it was in the Garden before man sinned)

or in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your humbly accepting His charity (the way it is for your right now)?

I don't see how the two are different, to be honest - except perhaps that word "totally" included in your first clause.

Our salvation comes from God's grace and our faith. I believe most Christians would agree with this, and that is what I believe as a Roman Catholic. But what is faith? Faith is taking someone at their word. Now, if God tells me He has my good in mind, I accept that on faith. But what am I to do if He tells me to do something? He does that quite a lot - either in Scripture, or in my heart, or through the bishops - and so is not part of my faith in God to obey Him, because I believe He wants my good?

Faith, working, through love, is my understanding. You cannot have faith if you will not have faith in what God tells you to do.

If God is this totally unselfish being (Love itself) than would God be wanting/needing something from His creation

God doesn't need us or anything He created at all. Of course not.

or would God be trying to gift those, who will accept His gifts, with unbelievable charitable gifts (including Godly type Love, heaven, eternal life, purpose and fellowship)?

Of course. But some of the gifts he sends have the tag: "Some assembly required". Almsgiving and charity donations are simple examples of that.

What part does sin play in helping man fulfill man’s earthly objective?

It is a stick to jab in the donkey's butt. It's what we're trying to avoid.

How does the Christian turn his past transgressions into assets (Look how Paul used his past sinful life)?

On thing I can think of: St. Peter was humbled by his doubt. Remember when he denied Our Lord three times? But by that humility, Peter could reach out on that Pentecost morning and preach to the crowds boldly, because he had been brought low, too.

Humility is an immense gift. No less is it a gift than in knowing anyone can be brought low, and God can put even the lowest on the top of the wall.

Why does a Christian want to stop sinning?

Three reasons, which I am reminded of every week in the confessional:

1) Fear of the loss of heaven
2) Fear of the pains of hell
3) Most importantly, shame in offending God, who deserves all my love.

How does a Christian keep from sinning again?

Self-discipline. It is a mystery to me how I am to acquire that...

Who is to blame for my sinning (I am a Christian)?

Three people: Adam, who gave us original sin and concupiscence; Satan, who tempts us constantly; and finally myself, for giving in to the Devil and my own lusts of the flesh.

What benefit would there come from my not sinning again?

Much. The world would be happier and healthier, for one thing. For another, we would offend God less, and even if He does forgive us, would that I would not offend Him. Third, we ourselves would be better for it. To love God and hate sin is a great triumph for a human soul, for we not only know what is right and wrong, but we are now loyal to good.

How big and bad are our sins and why do they need to be so bad (God’s fault)?

That is a good question. I would put it another way: how much do we love our sins, and are we willing to prefer them over God?

Now, the Catholic Church teaches, in line with John (who said that there is sin that kills the soul, and sin that does not kill the soul) that some sins, if unrepented, can still be cleansed from the soul. But, depending on certain conditions, there are some sins God will not clean from us if we do not repent of them.

Atonement is needed, but that is an even bigger subject.

Thank you for putting up with me. No smaller a subject than the end times, or creationism vs. evolution - and far more important, I think, than either of those.

Well, if you see yourself as a sinner, if that is your identity, then the most logical and natural thing for you to do is to sin. Thank God He doesn't see us as sinners, but as totally forgiven, righteous saints. We all need to learn to see ourselves as we now are in Christ.

Victory over the flesh is never won by us, it is always given in Christ. The victory is His, and we share in that victory through Christ, 1 Cor. 15:57. Jesus does not sin. Our response-ability is to continue to walk by faith, trusting and depending on Him, and as we do, He produces His own godly sinless character in us and through us.

OK, sadly, this is exactly the sort of thing of which I mean. Now, God does forgive our sins, and it does become as if we'd never done them. And our obedience to Him does make us more like Him every day.

But we can always choose to refuse His offer. And in fact, it can (in the short term) be quite enjoyable to sin. And we have a tendency to want to do it. In the Catholic Church, we call this tendency "concupiscence", so aware the Church is of it.

God does love us, and He wipes us clean whenever we ask His forgiveness. But what if you sin again and again, or even only once, after He forgives you at baptism? Is forgiveness, then, automatic? I hope to God not, because then we might presume on His forgiveness, and treat Him like the a milquetoast, who gets mildly annoyed that we offend him but who forgives us a million times over because "it doesn't really matter". If sin doesn't bother Him, why did we need baptism in the first place?

 

[Steeno7]

We seem to think it’s a mark of spiritual maturity to hang onto our guilt and shame. That the worse we feel about ourselves, the better we think we actually are. It's a lie that is sin in itself. It allows the flesh to survive by rebelling in a form of external piety. It’s a perfect hiding place for the old man. But Grace causes us to recognize the sin of putting confidence in ourselves and our own abilities...the sin of religious piety and spiritual pride.

Psalm 103:12 declares what is now the reality for those in Christ, “As far as the east is from the west, so far does He remove our transgressions from us.” We don't believe it because in this world what seems too good to be true, isn't. But it is true. It is the truth that sets us free. As Christians, our pardon is full and final. In Christ we are forgiven. We are clean. It is finished.

 

[ChesterKhan]

On the contrary, I know I am forgiven. I know I am contrite, and I know God has forgiven me because I wish to be forgiven, and to repent. I'm ashamed of what I've done, but not who I am, nor what God has done for me. And I have reason to be ashamed. If you father a child out of wedlock, it's not going to go away simply because you've been baptised. But it is wrong to weep in your pillow every night because of what you've done. The proper response, then, is to take care of the child, or at least give him to people who can.

It is spiritually immature to deny that you are a sinner. Some of the worst sinners in the world have been those who denied they were sinning - precisely because their denial enabled them. But on the other hand, to a point, you are right, because wallowing in your sins is a sin. It is a sin to tell God "No, you cannot save me from my sins. I am too filthy."

The mature soul is a rational soul. It admits its faults honestly to God, and asks Him, "Well, how can I make it right?" and follows the command of God. The answer, of course, is "Nothing; only I, the Lord, can; but you, my child, can help."

You don't think piety is a sin, do you? I don't think it is - not all the time. It is if you do it for the wrong reasons - because you think God desires sacrifice, not mercy; because you think God thinks that equal to loving your neighbor; or because you feel God will punish you for not doing it. Such motives are unsalvific.

But piety, out of love of God, and man, out of a true devotion, out of a desire to live a fuller, richer life - there is no law against that.

Our pardon of our sins at the time is full and final. But we can and do continue sinning. If I commit adultery, get baptised with a full intention of repentance, and then commit adultery again (out of a weak will), what recourse of forgiveness is there?

I can think of only two: either ask God Himself (with right intent, of course) for forgiveness - which He may or may not grant - or (again, with the right intent) go to the Confessional, and the priest will forgive you in God's name, because God has given him that authority.

Of course, no amount of talking or water will forgive you of any sin, even after baptism, if you do not think it is a sin. And especially if you do not want to be forgiven for it. Confession exists as a recognition of that reality. Whereas "once saved, always saved" exists in denial of it.

 

[Steeno7]

On the contrary, I know I am forgiven. I know I am contrite, and I know God has forgiven me because I wish to be forgiven, and to repent. I'm ashamed of what I've done, but not who I am, nor what God has done for me. And I have reason to be ashamed. If you father a child out of wedlock, it's not going to go away simply because you've been baptised. But it is wrong to weep in your pillow every night because of what you've done. The proper response, then, is to take care of the child, or at least give him to people who can.

It is spiritually immature to deny that you are a sinner. Some of the worst sinners in the world have been those who denied they were sinning - precisely because their denial enabled them. But on the other hand, to a point, you are right, because wallowing in your sins is a sin. It is a sin to tell God "No, you cannot save me from my sins. I am too filthy."

The mature soul is a rational soul. It admits its faults honestly to God, and asks Him, "Well, how can I make it right?" and follows the command of God. The answer, of course, is "Nothing; only I, the Lord, can; but you, my child, can help."

You don't think piety is a sin, do you? I don't think it is - not all the time. It is if you do it for the wrong reasons - because you think God desires sacrifice, not mercy; because you think God thinks that equal to loving your neighbor; or because you feel God will punish you for not doing it. Such motives are unsalvific.

But piety, out of love of God, and man, out of a true devotion, out of a desire to live a fuller, richer life - there is no law against that.

Our pardon of our sins at the time is full and final. But we can and do continue sinning. If I commit adultery, get baptised with a full intention of repentance, and then commit adultery again (out of a weak will), what recourse of forgiveness is there?

I can think of only two: either ask God Himself (with right intent, of course) for forgiveness - which He may or may not grant - or (again, with the right intent) go to the Confessional, and the priest will forgive you in God's name, because God has given him that authority.

Of course, no amount of talking or water will forgive you of any sin, even after baptism, if you do not think it is a sin. And especially if you do not want to be forgiven for it. Confession exists as a recognition of that reality. Whereas "once saved, always saved" exists in denial of it.

You say you know you are forgiven, but then speak only about all that you must do to 'maybe' get forgiveness, which negates what you say you know.

As Christians we are defined by the One we are identified with, Jesus Christ, not by our behavior. I am not a saint because I am sinless, but because of my identification with the sinless One, Jesus Christ.

My question for you is how is that workin' for ya? You have confessed that you commit the same sins over and over again. Do you not see the disconnect there in your thinking? It is not believing the truth that we have forgiveness that causes sin, it is believing you do not have forgiveness that does.

 

[bling]

Good point. But naturally that never stopped us from talking about numerous other things, such as why Jesus had to suffer and die, etc.

Another huge subject.

I don't see how the two are different, to be honest - except perhaps that word "totally" included in your first clause.

Our salvation comes from God's grace and our faith. I believe most Christians would agree with this, and that is what I believe as a Roman Catholic. But what is faith? Faith is taking someone at their word. Now, if God tells me He has my good in mind, I accept that on faith. But what am I to do if He tells me to do something? He does that quite a lot - either in Scripture, or in my heart, or through the bishops - and so is not part of my faith in God to obey Him, because I believe He wants my good?

There is a huge difference!

Adam and Eve prior to sinning did not need to be saved (they had done nothing wrong to be saved from). One of the big things we learn from the story of Adam and Eve (and there is a lot to learn) is that: man under his personal own power cannot remain in the situation of not needing salvation, since man (without the indwelling Holy Spirit) will at some point disobey God.

No human (other than Christ) could fulfill his/her earthly objective in the Garden situation, so there is no need to go there again. Where we are today is the very best place for humans to fulfill their earthly objective, but yes we will sin (if we become mature adults). Yet not sinning is not the objective and sin itself helps some nonbeliever fulfill their objective.

Faith, working, through love, is my understanding. You cannot have faith if you will not have faith in what God tells you to do.

“If you Love me you will obey me…” but that also tells us; we have to have this Godly type Love first. Faith and Love grow together through using them together. You can see a person’s Love and Faith in what they do (their works).

Of course. But some of the gifts he sends have the tag: "Some assembly required". Almsgiving and charity donations are simple examples of that.

Sorry, but God’s Love (charitable gifts) is totally unconditional (nothing on our part is needed). We have the privilege and honor of allowing the Holy Spirit to work through us doing all kinds of wonderful stuff. What we “do” or allow is out of gratitude for what has already been done (we got it all except for being in heaven right now (but we have the birthright to heaven that no one can take way)).

It is a stick to jab in the donkey's butt. It's what we're trying to avoid.

What?

The nonbeliever (mature adult) cannot keep from sinning on his/her own. Sin for the nonbeliever becomes a burden on their conscience (at least until they harden beyond help) and the person will seek relief from that burden. There is only one relief that works and that is with God’s forgiveness. Coming to the realization of this huge burden and felling the relief (forgiveness) enables a person to Love much (with a Godly type Love) and we know if you Love you will obey.

It all goes back to obtaining this Godly type Love initially which seems to only come from “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…”, so if you realize you have been forgiven of an unbelievable huge debt you will automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love). So to get to having this debt you first have to sin.

On thing I can think of: St. Peter was humbled by his doubt. Remember when he denied Our Lord three times? But by that humility, Peter could reach out on that Pentecost morning and preach to the crowds boldly, because he had been brought low, too.

Humility is an immense gift. No less is it a gift than in knowing anyone can be brought low, and God can put even the lowest on the top of the wall.

Our past sins become part of our witness to others, we can tell people where we were and where we are now and God/Christ made the difference.

Three reasons, which I am reminded of every week in the confessional:

1) Fear of the loss of heaven
2) Fear of the pains of hell
3) Most importantly, shame in offending God, who deserves all my love.

We have to sell or give away our birthright to heaven to go to hell, so that does not say anything about doing the other sins?
We Love God and God does not like us to sin.

Self-discipline. It is a mystery to me how I am to acquire that...

I would say we do not stop trying to sin and start doing all the good stuff we can. What good stuff can the Holy Spirit be involved in doing in the next 60 seconds (this can be serving your employee to your best) or lots of other stuff. If you go through your day always involving the Spirit in what you are doing (He cannot be involved in sin) you just do not have time to sin.

Three people: Adam, who gave us original sin and concupiscence; Satan, who tempts us constantly; and finally myself, for giving in to the Devil and my own lusts of the flesh.

Wow, sorry, but I am to blame. I know the Spirit cannot be involved in sin so if we are working together I can keep from sinning. The unfortunate thing is I quench the Spirit way to often and go out on my own. This allows me to sin pretty quickly, but that has nothing to do with satan (the Spirit can keep him at bay) and it has nothing to do with Adam & Eve.

Much. The world would be happier and healthier, for one thing. For another, we would offend God less, and even if He does forgive us, would that I would not offend Him. Third, we ourselves would be better for it. To love God and hate sin is a great triumph for a human soul, for we not only know what is right and wrong, but we are now loyal to good.

This is another huge subject and we have other stuff to address.

That is a good question. I would put it another way: how much do we love our sins, and are we willing to prefer them over God?

Just one sin (transgression against God) causes an unbelievable huge debt. This is a much bigger topic.

Now, the Catholic Church teaches, in line with John (who said that there is sin that kills the soul, and sin that does not kill the soul) that some sins, if unrepented, can still be cleansed from the soul. But, depending on certain conditions, there are some sins God will not clean from us if we do not repent of them.

OK

 

[AlexLL]

How would popular Protestant be defined? The United Methodist Church is a very large church, and we ask God for forgiveness for our sins almost every service.

 

[extraordinary]

Why is there not more wariness about sin in popular Christianity, today?
Or am I just missing something?

No you are not missing the truth about this!
Evidently, the Holy Spirit is giving you a revelation about it.
Warning ... most of today's churches care not about you.
Check out recent threads such as ... http://www.christianforums.com/t7825081/
.

 

[bcbsr]

Who is "we"?

 

[sozo]

When Jesus spoke to His disciples about partaking of His body and blood, He did not say "Do this in remembrance of your sin." He said "Do this in remembrance of Me".

The sin issue was settled on the cross, and God was satisfied. Those who attempt to do something about sin, do not believe that it is finished.

Hebrews 10:1-3

 

[extraordinary]

Those who attempt to do something about sin, do not believe that it is finished.

I do not believe it was/is finished because of ...
the many Scripture verses which plainly warn believers about
the very real possibility of losing "eternal life", gaining hell, gaining perdition, and etc.

If you, or anyone else, would care to explain what all of these verses are about,
I would be more than happy to conclude that the sin issue was settled on the cross.
.

 

[seeingeyes]

. It will have to be cleansed before I can be with the Master, for nothing unclean can be with Him.

This does not sound like Jesus at all.

 

[Bro in Christ]

Grace and peace be with you all.

I have a great sense of my own shortcomings as a follower of Christ - a sense that I am most definitely unworthy, that I'm not as good as I could be, that indeed I do sin much against God's own majesty, even if it is by staying up an hour or seven too late. In short, I have a great sense of sin.

Something that troubles me about popular Protestantism is that, while it seems you hear a lot about Jesus saving us and making our lives better - and I do agree - it feels to me like there's not enough emphasis on what exactly He's saving us from. A lot of people are "born again", and "saved", but what from? Why will we go to Hell if we don't proclaim Jesus Christ as Lord? I know the answers; I have read them. But I never hear them (sadly, not even from Catholic pulpits most of the time).

An image of what I mean: A lot of people think the Devil is some horned guy with red skin and a tail carrying a pitchfork. They find this funny, and think something so stupid couldn't possibly exist. But they believe God, if he exists at all in their minds, must be loving and understanding. I don't see how one could believe in God, but not the Devil - or push the Devil into the background.

I do feel confident in God's power. I am certain of Jesus's power to save and to sanctify - to make like Himself. That keeps me going. But I despise sin - mine and others' - and am very aware of its existence. Its vileness causes me to cling more to Christ (though often my weakness gets to me).

Our Lord spoke more of Hell and sin, warned more of it, than anyone in the New Testament.Why is there not more wariness about sin in popular Christianity, today? Or am I just missing something?

Catholics preach more law than grace.... why important

2 tim 2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be impowered in the grace that is in Christ Jesus

By the spirit putting us into Christ Baptism 1 cor 12:12-13 we have impowerment as we think upon truths that Jesus Christ states to the Father ...

eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

here are a few things of grace stated in eph 1 .. its loaded with words of grace

eph 1:3 is great even thou we are sinners God states good things about us continuely if we are in Christ by acknowledging his work on the Cross as God and man taking the punishment and payment of death for our sins. Which savior in religion does this? ONLY OUR GOD

 

[ChesterKhan]

Catholics preach more law than grace.... why important

2 tim 2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be impowered in the grace that is in Christ Jesus

By the spirit putting us into Christ Baptism 1 cor 12:12-13 we have impowerment as we think upon truths that Jesus Christ states to the Father ...

eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

here are a few things of grace stated in eph 1 .. its loaded with words of grace

eph 1:3 is great even thou we are sinners God states good things about us continuely if we are in Christ by acknowledging his work on the Cross as God and man taking the punishment and payment of death for our sins. Which savior in religion does this? ONLY OUR GOD

Nice quotes. I have some for you:

From the First Letter to Corinth:

For consider your call, brethren...
If any one builds... each man’s work will become manifest...
If any one destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him.
Let no one deceive himself. If any one among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.
So let no one boast of men.
This is how one should regard us...
Therefore do not pronounce judgment...
If then you received it, why do you boast...?

I could go through the whole book, but this is only the first four chapters. Sounds a lot like St. Paul is asking the Corinthians to do things they are not doing, or to stop doing things they were.

But here is why:


14 I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. 15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. 16 I urge you, then, be imitators of me. 17 Therefore I sent to you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach them everywhere in every church. 18 Some are arrogant, as though I were not coming to you. 19 But I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and I will find out not the talk of these arrogant people but their power. 20 For the kingdom of God does not consist in talk but in power. 21 What do you wish? Shall I come to you with a rod, or with love in a spirit of gentleness?

[From the RSV:CE]

 

[Bro in Christ]

Nice quotes. I have some for you:

From the First Letter to Corinth:

For consider your call, brethren...
If any one builds... each man’s work will become manifest...
If any one destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him.
Let no one deceive himself. If any one among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.
So let no one boast of men.
This is how one should regard us...
Therefore do not pronounce judgment...
If then you received it, why do you boast...?

I could go through the whole book, but this is only the first four chapters. Sounds a lot like St. Paul is asking the Corinthians to do things they are not doing, or to stop doing things they were.

But here is why:


14 I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. 15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. 16 I urge you, then, be imitators of me. 17 Therefore I sent to you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach them everywhere in every church. 18 Some are arrogant, as though I were not coming to you. 19 But I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and I will find out not the talk of these arrogant people but their power. 20 For the kingdom of God does not consist in talk but in power. 21 What do you wish? Shall I come to you with a rod, or with love in a spirit of gentleness?

[From the RSV:CE]

Excellent point Paul wrote all the verse spoken by both of us. 1 for 3:1-3 states the problem with The Corinithians was that they were carnal and since this was true they where blind to the spirit ... 1 Cor 2:10-16 . So Paul was talking differently to the Corinthians than to Timothy or the Ephesians who could understand since they where being spiritual and thus able to learn.