Why don't protestants bless Mary?

[Panevino]

Where does this leave Jesus Christ? Where indeed? As I have observed time and again here at CF the Catholic concept of heaven has Jesus Christ as King with His Mother, Mary, as Queen, and the Holy Spirit as the Spouse of the Queen, Mary. God, the Father, has no place in their picture of heaven. I think the more telling question is what does the obsession with Mary do to God, the Father?

This is a likely impression given focused debate on mary being queen.
Don't forget Catholics acknowledge each person of the Trinity in each sign of the cross. The Catholic mass is focused on the sons sacrifice to the father and our offering to the Father in him with him and through him(the son). and the "our father" is said by all at every mass.

 

[Bryan G]

Paul said that he longed to be absent from the body and present with the Lord, not absent from the body and resting in soul sleep.

Yup, he longs to be with the Lord, not resting on "soul sleep", and not living out the rest of his life either, but he still has to live out his life... and wait until the second coming....
I long to be in the mountains, not on that long drive to get there. So does that mean the long drive doesn't exist? Do you see the fault in your logic? Paul longs to be with the Lord, but he still has to live out the rest of his life, and still has to wait until Jesus returns (during this time he'll sleep).
How would what you said change what I said?
What you posted does not disprove what I posted, I never said the sleep was forever, the Bible says you'll sleep until Jesus comes.
When you die, it will be as if time don't exist. To you, it will be as if you just closed your eyes and opened them right back up to see Jesus coming, this isn't something I'm making up, it's the word of God.

Answer this, if we die today, how can we go to heaven, when there has been no judgment yet?
Acts 17:31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
Answer this, why is Jesus coming to judge us, if we're already in heaven after we die?
Answer this, how can we meet up with Jesus when he returns if we are already in heaven?
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I was taught the same lies you were. I was 17 when I realized the truth, but recently I've found that there are many churches that teach this, in fact Martin Luther, leader of the Protestant Reformation, wrote at one point: “It is probable, in my opinion, that, with very few exceptions indeed, the dead sleep in utter insensibility till the day of judgment.
Here is a page I found on this. This is not my church http://tinyurl.com/zttav3d

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 11:11-14
11 These things said he: and after that he said to them, Our friend Lazarus sleeps; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus to them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, to the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation.

And I did not digress, this goes for Mary also, she to is now in the state of sleep, she has no thoughts, she too is waiting for the coming of Jesus.

 

[Bryan G]

You guys never ask anyone else to pray for you, do you?

When you pray for someone that does not make you a mediator, that's foolish to think so. Wow, I prayed for my friend, now I'm a mediator like Jesus, can you see how foolish that is? Besides, Mary is dead, she can't pray for you.

 

[Panevino]

When you pray for someone that does not make you a mediator, that's foolish to think so. Wow, I prayed for my friend, now I'm a mediator like Jesus, can you see how foolish that is? Besides, Mary is dead, she can't pray for you.

you're burning a Strawman with regard to the mediator comment.
Catholic doctrine does not teach that saints incl Mary are an alternate mediator between God and man,over Jesus. Catholic doctrine is clear that Jesus is the only mediator between God and man, but also acknowledges that all Christians can play a role but through the mediator Jesus.

Ccc
480 Jesus Christ is true God and true man, in the unity of his divine person; for this reason he is the one and only mediator between God and men.

 

[farout]

Scripture says that all nations will call Mary blessed. Why is it that so many Protestants refuse to do so? Are they so afraid of appearing Catholic that they are willing to disrespect the Mother of our Lord? The only time they ever even talk about Mary when they either drag her out for Christmas or, in extreme cases, when they are disparaging her to say she was merely an incubator and no one special. What is with that?

Speaking as a older protestant, I do thank the Lord for Mary, she above all women was blessed to be the Mother of Jesus Christ. The Bible no where tells us to pray to her, or t worship her. So beyond being grateful for her, and acknowledging her a blessed more than any other woman, what more should I do?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Yup, he longs to be with the Lord, not resting on "soul sleep", and not living out the rest of his life either, but he still has to live out his life... and wait until the second coming....
I long to be in the mountains, not on that long drive to get there. So does that mean the long drive doesn't exist? Do you see the fault in your logic? Paul longs to be with the Lord, but he still has to live out the rest of his life, and still has to wait until Jesus returns (during this time he'll sleep).
How would what you said change what I said?
What you posted does not disprove what I posted, I never said the sleep was forever, the Bible says you'll sleep until Jesus comes.
When you die, it will be as if time don't exist. To you, it will be as if you just closed your eyes and opened them right back up to see Jesus coming, this isn't something I'm making up, it's the word of God.

Answer this, if we die today, how can we go to heaven, when there has been no judgment yet?
Acts 17:31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
Answer this, why is Jesus coming to judge us, if we're already in heaven after we die?
Answer this, how can we meet up with Jesus when he returns if we are already in heaven?
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I was taught the same lies you were. I was 17 when I realized the truth, but recently I've found that there are many churches that teach this, in fact Martin Luther, leader of the Protestant Reformation, wrote at one point: “It is probable, in my opinion, that, with very few exceptions indeed, the dead sleep in utter insensibility till the day of judgment.
Here is a page I found on this. This is not my church http://tinyurl.com/zttav3d

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 11:11-14
11 These things said he: and after that he said to them, Our friend Lazarus sleeps; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus to them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, to the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation.

And I did not digress, this goes for Mary also, she to is now in the state of sleep, she has no thoughts, she too is waiting for the coming of Jesus.

You seem to be under the misapprehension that a person's spirit is inextricably intertwined with his physical body. There is no reason to think that an individual remains with his body after he dies. Certainly neither Lazarus nor the rich man remained in a state of soul sleep after death, did they? Do think Jesus was misinformed when he told the thief on the cross that THIS DAY he would be with Him in Paradise?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Speaking as a older protestant, I do thank the Lord for Mary, she above all women was blessed to be the Mother of Jesus Christ. The Bible no where tells us to pray to her, or t worship her. So beyond being grateful for her, and acknowledging her a blessed more than any other woman, what more should I do?

Hmmmm. How about building a church building and dedicating it to her, or to her heart, or to her conception, or to her ascension into heaven? How about erecting altars to her and making statues of her and kneeling before these statues and praying to her? How about burning candles in front of said altars so that your prayers will be heard by her?

 

[farout]

Hmmmm. How about building a church building and dedicating it to her, or to her heart, or to her conception, or to her ascension into heaven? How about erecting altars to her and making statues of her and kneeling before these statues and praying to her? How about burning candles in front of said altars so that your prayers will be heard by her?

Most likely would be ok in a Roman Catholic church. However I don't think Mary was ascended into heaven, at least not according to Scripture.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Most likely would be ok in a Roman Catholic church. However I don't think Mary was ascended into heaven, at least not according to Scripture.

I certainly agree with you on that point.

 

[Bryan G]

You seem to be under the misapprehension that a person's spirit is inextricably intertwined with his physical body. There is no reason to think that an individual remains with his body after he dies. Certainly neither Lazarus nor the rich man remained in a state of soul sleep after death, did they? Do think Jesus was misinformed when he told the thief on the cross that THIS DAY he would be with Him in Paradise?

I gave you several verses that tell you death is like sleep, those aren't my words, I even included the book, chapter and verse of each, yet you refuse to consider, you make it sound like those are my own thoughts. Please read the Bible for yourself, pray about it, don't just go on believing what someone has told you about going to heaven when you die, and don't believe me, learn for yourself.
This is the problem with so many Christians, well, people in general, it's that they refuse to believe that what they think they know, might not be the truth, no one wants to admit they might be wrong. Me, I've had to admit I was wrong many times throughout life and I study God's word.
You direct your problem at me, as if I said something not Biblical, like I'm making stuff up, but you said nothing about the questions I asked, or the verses I posted. I guess I'll need to do it again.
I'll ask this again, tell me, how can you go to heaven when you die if judgment day has not come yet?
Jesus will come to judge us:
Matthew 13:30 "Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."
The harvest hasn't happened yet...

1 Thessalonians. 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
Notice how it says the dead in Christ will rise first, that can't be if we are already in heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55 “O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
The dead WILL NOT BE RAISED UNTIL THE TRUMPET, this is AFTER Jesus returns.
The part in orange shows that we DO NOT get our immortal body until Jesus returns.

John 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation
You cannot come forth from the grave if you are in heaven... Something more to think about...

You showed me one little thing in the Bible to try and refute what I have shown, I have two scenarios for that.
One, think about this, if we are as sleeping while dead, and when we open our eyes, we are at the second coming, to the thief on the cross, it will be as the same day.
OR, Jesus made an exception to that one man. And if Jesus did take that one man, the thief on the cross, to heaven that day, that does not mean what he did for him was for all of us. God has made exceptions before, Enoch and Elijah went directly to heaven without dying, so if we go by your logic, we all go to heaven without dying because they did.

Certainly neither Lazarus nor the rich man remained in a state of soul sleep after death, did they?

Don't ask me, look it up, you tell me, what does the Bible say about Lazarus or the rich man?
What does the Bible say about death? That question was rhetorical, I already shown that...

I never said anything about the soul remaining with the body, I never said anything from my thoughts, I just posted Bible verses. If you want to refuse to believe God's word, that's your business, but don't put words in my mouth, don't make false accusations about me. I only came to this forum to share God's word. I have learned through my past 53 years that churches have been teaching lies, and I also know why, but that's a huge topic and this is not the thread to discuss that. The reason I'm here in this thread is to show that Mary is dead, and not aware of what is happening, she can't mediate and doesn't need our blessing anymore.

Please answer this, how can you go to heaven when you die if judgment day has not come yet?

 

[Bryan G]

you're burning a Strawman with regard to the mediator comment.
Catholic doctrine does not teach that saints incl Mary are an alternate mediator between God and man,over Jesus. Catholic doctrine is clear that Jesus is the only mediator between God and man, but also acknowledges that all Christians can play a role but through the mediator Jesus.

Ccc
480 Jesus Christ is true God and true man, in the unity of his divine person; for this reason he is the one and only mediator between God and men.

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
Mary is dead, she is NOT physically in the church, so how can she hear you unless you think you're praying to her? Or are catholics performing a seance??

HAIL, HOLY QUEEN, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!
Excuse me, you tell me this is not a prayer? Is this another seance? Mary is dead, look up death in the Bible, she's not in heaven listening prayers, or are you saying she has the power of God to hear everything on earth.. Are you catholics seriously saying Mary has the power to hear millions of people praying at once? Now that would be putting her in the place of Jesus..

Okay, seriously, show me one, just one Bible verse that says this can be or should be done, only one...
AND, show me just one verse that says dead people can hear us, again, one verse will do.
Show me one verse that says Mary has the power to hear thousands, even millions of people praying all at once, because that alone sounds absurd.

 

[seashale76]

Scripture says that all nations will call Mary blessed. Why is it that so many Protestants refuse to do so? Are they so afraid of appearing Catholic that they are willing to disrespect the Mother of our Lord? The only time they ever even talk about Mary when they either drag her out for Christmas or, in extreme cases, when they are disparaging her to say she was merely an incubator and no one special. What is with that?

Because many don't realize the Magnificat and the Hail Mary are directly from scripture. I'm dead serious. Most people don't read the bible. If they actually did, many wouldn't hold to some of the positions they do. It wasn't until I read the bible in high school that I started questioning a lot of the doctrines I was raised with.

 

[seashale76]

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
Mary is dead, she is NOT physically in the church, so how can she hear you unless you think you're praying to her? Or are catholics performing a seance??

That part you quote in blue? About that… That's scripture.
(Because I can't be bothered to write new posts for the same old topic being rehashed everywhere, everyday in numerous threads…)

I pray thee good sir, to hearken unto my post.

There are around six different Greek words that are usually translated into English as 'prayer'. These words encompass supplications, interecessions, thanksgiving, etc. Prayer to the saints IS NOT WORSHIP! I Timothy 2:4 upholds the practice of intercession for others, and we are quite cognizant of the fact that Christ's mediation is what makes intercession possible.

The saints are alive in Christ. Mary, the Theotokos (God bearer) does intercede for us through prayer, as do ALL the saints. When a person asks the Theotokos, or any other saint, to pray for them, it is just like when we ask for anyone else to pray for us. Those in the Church are ALIVE in Christ, because God is the God of the living and not the dead.

As the Paschal Troparion says: Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life!

Scriptures relating to saints being alive in Christ, et cetera:

John 6:47-51
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

John 5:25-29
“Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself, and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

Matthew 27:51-53
“And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked, rocks were split, tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.”

John 11:23-27
“Jesus said to her, ‘Your brother will rise.’ Martha said to him, ‘I know he will rise, in the resurrection on the last day.’ ”

“Jesus told her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?’ ” She said to him, ‘Yes, Lord. I have come to believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, ...’ ”

Matthew 22:32
“ ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

Luke 20:38
“and he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

Revelation 21:27
“ … but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

John 8:51
“Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever keeps my word will never see death.”

Revelation 5:8-10
“… and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints; and they sang a new song, saying, ‘Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals, for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for God from every tribe and tongue and people and nation,10 and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on earth.’ ”

Revelation 11:16-18
“And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying, ‘We give thanks to thee, Lord God Almighty, who art and who wast, that thou hast taken thy great power and begun to reign. The nations raged, but thy wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, for rewarding thy servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear thy name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.’ ”

Hebrews 12:1
“Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us"

Luke 15:7
“I tell you, in just the same way there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people who have no need of repentance.”

Hebrews 12:22-23"No, you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering,
and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and the spirits of the just made perfect,"

Revelation 8:3
“I saw another angel who came and stood before the altar holding a golden censer and much incense was given to him that he might add it to the prayers of the saints upon the golden altar that was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense with the prayers of the saints went up before God out of the angel’s hand. And the angel took the censer and he filled it with the fire from the altar and threw it to the earth and there followed peals of thunder, and sounds and flashes of lightning and an earthquake."

Actually, anytime you ask anyone else to pray for you you're praying for them to pray for you, by the English definition of the word.

We are told to: Pray for All Men
1 Timothy 2:1-7
2 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ[a] andnot lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

^This, plus all of the numerous scriptures previously posted about the saints being alive in Christ should show you that we are to pray for others. This includes asking the saints to pray for us, as they are alive in Christ and not dead. If you dare claim the Theotokos and the Saints are dead, then you're calling Christ a liar and are denying the scriptures.

 

[ToBeLoved]

That part you quote in blue? About that… That's scripture.
(Because I can't be bothered to write new posts for the same old topic being rehashed everywhere, everyday in numerous threads…)

I pray thee good sir, to hearken unto my post.

There are around six different Greek words that are usually translated into English as 'prayer'. These words encompass supplications, interecessions, thanksgiving, etc. Prayer to the saints IS NOT WORSHIP! I Timothy 2:4 upholds the practice of intercession for others, and we are quite cognizant of the fact that Christ's mediation is what makes intercession possible.

The saints are alive in Christ. Mary, the Theotokos (God bearer) does intercede for us through prayer, as do ALL the saints. When a person asks the Theotokos, or any other saint, to pray for them, it is just like when we ask for anyone else to pray for us. Those in the Church are ALIVE in Christ, because God is the God of the living and not the dead.

As the Paschal Troparion says: Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life!

Scriptures relating to saints being alive in Christ, et cetera:


Actually, anytime you ask anyone else to pray for you you're praying for them to pray for you, by the English definition of the word.

We are told to: Pray for All Men
1 Timothy 2:1-7
2 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ[a] andnot lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

^This, plus all of the numerous scriptures previously posted about the saints being alive in Christ should show you that we are to pray for others. This includes asking the saints to pray for us, as they are alive in Christ and not dead. If you dare claim the Theotokos and the Saints are dead, then you're calling Christ a liar and are denying the scriptures.

Is Mary, Jesus' earthly mother dead?

Have you read what the Word has to say about communicating with the dead? God finds it an abomination.

 

[seashale76]

Is Mary, Jesus' earthly mother dead?

Have you read what the Word has to say about communicating with the dead? God finds it an abomination.

Our God is the God of the living and not the dead. I highly suggest you hit the 'click to expand' tab on those scriptures I posted and then get back to me.

 

[Meowzltov]

Is Mary, Jesus' earthly mother dead?

Have you read what the Word has to say about communicating with the dead? God finds it an abomination.

She is alive in Christ.

The Bible forbids Necromancy, which means going to the dead for esoteric knowledge. No one asks Mary for knowledge from beyond the Grave. We ask her for her prayers, same as we ask you for yours.

 

[Grafted In]

She is alive in Christ.

The Bible forbids Necromancy, which means going to the dead for esoteric knowledge. No one asks Mary for knowledge from beyond the Grave. We ask her for her prayers, same as we ask you for yours.

Open Heart, listen to the people who are trying to warn you. You have been captured and bound to a false religion. You are in bondage to idolitry. For some reason you are unable to see that. All of the efforts of those posting on this thread are for not. We all care about you. Remember the golden calf?
Come out from among them !!!!

 

[Albion]

Because many don't realize the Magnificat and the Hail Mary are directly from scripture. I'm dead serious. Most people don't read the bible.

The first part of the Hail Mary is. The second part owes its place to an addition ordered by the Papacy.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Because many don't realize the Magnificat and the Hail Mary are directly from scripture. I'm dead serious. Most people don't read the bible. If they actually did, many wouldn't hold to some of the positions they do. It wasn't until I read the bible in high school that I started questioning a lot of the doctrines I was raised with.

Because something is in scripture does not give one carte blanche to pluck it out of its context and give an entirely new spin.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I gave you several verses that tell you death is like sleep, those aren't my words, I even included the book, chapter and verse of each, yet you refuse to consider, you make it sound like those are my own thoughts. Please read the Bible for yourself, pray about it, don't just go on believing what someone has told you about going to heaven when you die, and don't believe me, learn for yourself.
This is the problem with so many Christians, well, people in general, it's that they refuse to believe that what they think they know, might not be the truth, no one wants to admit they might be wrong. Me, I've had to admit I was wrong many times throughout life and I study God's word.
You direct your problem at me, as if I said something not Biblical, like I'm making stuff up, but you said nothing about the questions I asked, or the verses I posted. I guess I'll need to do it again.
I'll ask this again, tell me, how can you go to heaven when you die if judgment day has not come yet?
Jesus will come to judge us:
Matthew 13:30 "Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."
The harvest hasn't happened yet...

1 Thessalonians. 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
Notice how it says the dead in Christ will rise first, that can't be if we are already in heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55 “O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
The dead WILL NOT BE RAISED UNTIL THE TRUMPET, this is AFTER Jesus returns.
The part in orange shows that we DO NOT get our immortal body until Jesus returns.

John 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation
You cannot come forth from the grave if you are in heaven... Something more to think about...

You showed me one little thing in the Bible to try and refute what I have shown, I have two scenarios for that.
One, think about this, if we are as sleeping while dead, and when we open our eyes, we are at the second coming, to the thief on the cross, it will be as the same day.
OR, Jesus made an exception to that one man. And if Jesus did take that one man, the thief on the cross, to heaven that day, that does not mean what he did for him was for all of us. God has made exceptions before, Enoch and Elijah went directly to heaven without dying, so if we go by your logic, we all go to heaven without dying because they did.

Don't ask me, look it up, you tell me, what does the Bible say about Lazarus or the rich man?
What does the Bible say about death? That question was rhetorical, I already shown that...

I never said anything about the soul remaining with the body, I never said anything from my thoughts, I just posted Bible verses. If you want to refuse to believe God's word, that's your business, but don't put words in my mouth, don't make false accusations about me. I only came to this forum to share God's word. I have learned through my past 53 years that churches have been teaching lies, and I also know why, but that's a huge topic and this is not the thread to discuss that. The reason I'm here in this thread is to show that Mary is dead, and not aware of what is happening, she can't mediate and doesn't need our blessing anymore.

Please answer this, how can you go to heaven when you die if judgment day has not come yet?

So, what do you think becomes of the human soul after death?