Why don't prayer work as intented?

[ticker]

Hello sun

So... why pray when we have a need?
And why have faith that He hears and answers?

Why not? I would. It doesn't mean the "problem" will always go away though (...something that's not necessarily a "bad" thing).

God works in us through our earthly "problems"....has done so from the Old Testament onward...and if a prayer to a problem ain't gettin answered in the fashion one would like it too, then maybe they don't know what exactly they're praying for.

But we do have a selfish will that causes us to make choices that are harmful to ourselves right?

Yep. But God is sovereign over that too...as He could've given us the wisdom to not make those choices that would've ultimately been harmful to ourselves.

Basically I'm saying, the problems that happen that we can't help (terrorism, etc...), or the problems that happen because we're foolish (cheating on a loved one, etc...), or the problems that happen because of evil forces at work (demonic attacks, etc...), all fall under God's sovereignty....so there's no good in blaming oursleves, blaming the devil, or blaming the world around us for all the problems in our lives. They're there because they have to be....because God is in control.


Blessings

 

[GQ Chris]

Anyone saying: Whatever you pray about you will get, is clearly not being honest, even if this is what the bible say. And still taking into consideration things like lacking faith and maybe just asking the wrong thing, or not having the patience to wait for the answer, one can still say without feeling dishonest: Prayer just don't work like it should, and people saying they get answers is really so few that they almost disapear in the masses of people that never get any answer. Still there is really a lot of christians suffering from things they theoretically could be free from, but never see any solution to.

So there is basically just two answers:
1: God does not exist, so therefore he cannot answer prayers
2: God exist, but he don't answer prayers even if he say he do, for reasons unknown.

Its not working because you're not Praying hard enough to get rug burns on your knees. You gotta have the rug burns. God requires it.

 

[E.C.]

Western Christianity?
You mean some churches or some people.
There are MANY churches that teach that
while you can pray for help, God might
not want to help you, he might want y ou
to suffer.
In fact, most churches... read the posts
in this very thread.
It's not a 'western' thing, it's what some
'people' believe... it's that mentality that
if we ask God for something, He'll just
hear us and give us what we've asked of
Him... if it's according to His will.

There is a difference between praying for a cure from an illness or disease, or one's safety and praying for a stupid material gain.

Now, this was one of those many times when I just skip the thread and answer solely the OP. From what I gathered from the OP was basically this "Joe prays for X. He doesn't get X right when he wanted X. Therefore God doesn't exist or prayer doesn't work". Call me crazy, but that is a skewed opinion on how prayer works.

 

[Thekla]

I don't think God wants us to suffer. I think he knows what we can bear, and can give us the strength to bear it.

 

[GQ Chris]

I don't think God wants us to suffer. I think he knows what we can bear, and can give us the strength to bear it.

That would be against Scripture, Christians will share the sufferings just like Jesus Christ suffered.

 

[Thekla]

That would be against Scripture, Christians will share the sufferings just like Jesus Christ suffered.

yes, we all have sufferings/crosses -- but the strength to bear them comes from God. I don't think He's a sadist.

 

[GQ Chris]

yes, we all have sufferings/crosses -- but the strength to bear them comes from God. I don't think He's masochistic.

Yes, we can do all things in Christ.

 

[GQ Chris]

When I have prayed till I got rug burns, my prayers were answered.

 

[sunlover1]

Hello sun

Why not? I would. It doesn't mean the "problem" will always go away though (...something that's not necessarily a "bad" thing).

God works in us through our earthly "problems"....has done so from the Old Testament onward...and if a prayer ain't gettin answered in the fashion one would like it too, maybe they don't know what exactly they're praying for.

God does work in us through our problems, works on other's too.
But He can work in us just as easily through His voice.
A wise man heareth and increases knowledge
And no, just because we pray, it doesnt mean that the 'problem'
will go away. Sometimes what we perceive as a problem is a
blessing in disguise. Sometimes a 'problem' is the natural consequences
of something we've caused and cannot be 'undone'.
But then God will always help us and comfort us in that trial too.

Yep. But God is sovereign over that too...as He could've given us the wisdom to not make those choices that would've ultimately been harmful to ourselves.

I'm not sure what you mean, but yes God is sovereign,
and in His sovereignty He told 'us' to get wisdom.
7 Wisdom is the principal thing;
therefore get wisdom:
and with all thy getting get understanding.


Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not;


1 The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel;
2 To know wisdom and instruction;
to perceive the words of understanding;
3 To receive the instruction of wisdom,
justice, and judgment, and equitya;
4 To give subtilty to the simple,
to the young man knowledge and discretionb.
5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning;
and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
6 To understand a proverb, and the interpretationc;
the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.

Basically I'm saying, the problems that happen that we can't help (terrorism, etc...), or the problems that happen because we're foolish (cheating on a loved one, etc...), or the problems that happen because of evil forces at work (demonic attacks), all fall under God's sovereignty.....

Everything falls under God's sovereignty, yes.
Cheating on a loved one cannot be attributed to God,
God never tempts with evil.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God:
for God cannot be tempted with evilc, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin:
and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above,
and cometh down from the Father of lights,
with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth,
that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

so there is no real reason to keep blaming oursleves, blaming the devil, or blaming the world around us for all the problems in our lives.

The blame game doesnt help, but in order to know what, if anything
to do about a problem, I do have to know if it's a change that I need
to make, or if it's the devil trying to .. kill, steal, or destroy.
if the devil's trying to mess w/ my mind, I need to suit up and use
the weapons of our warfare, that are not carnal, but mighty
through God to the pulling down of strongholds...

They're there for us because they have to be....because God is in control.

God is in control, but He's given us some choices as well.
He is the one who said that as a man sows that shall that
man also reap. He doesnt force us to sow good or evil.
(I set before you life and death, choose life)
God is sovereign, but/and if I put water in my gas
tank and then my car doesnt run and so I cannot
drive to work, it wasnt GOD's fault or credit that
I didnt get a paycheck.
God hates foolishness, and He said that a wise man
will 'hear' and increase learning.
He says not to be drunk with wine which is excess,
but to be instead, filled with the Spirit.
If I become drunk and smash into another car causing
myself to lose my driving priveleges..
God didnt tempt me to do that, but He can and does
make all things work for the good.
Even my bad choices.

 

[sunlover1]

Its not working because you're not Praying hard enough to get rug burns on your knees. You gotta have the rug burns. God requires it.

I missed that passage.
But this one is similar:

16 Rejoice evermore.
17 Pray without ceasing.
18 In every thing give thanks:
http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=47838590#_ftnref1

There is a difference between praying for a cure from an illness or disease, or one's safety and praying for a stupid material gain.

And we can thank those televangelists for teaching people
that materialistic mentality. Well, we're all greedy, but they
really capitalize on that spot of greed in us.

Now, this was one of those many times when I just skip the thread and answer solely the OP. From what I gathered from the OP was basically this "Joe prays for X. He doesn't get X right when he wanted X. Therefore God doesn't exist or prayer doesn't work". Call me crazy, but that is a skewed opinion on how prayer works.

Tell me what X is and I will decide if I want to call u crazy today.
Just kidding. But you should read through the thread, because
it's quite interesting how people have answered the OP.

I don't think God wants us to suffer. I think he knows what we can bear, and can give us the strength to bear it.

That would be against Scripture, Christians will share the sufferings just like Jesus Christ suffered.

She said that she doesnt think that He WANTS us to suffer,
not that we wouldnt suffer. He knew/knows what Christians
will have to suffer, and He says to count it all joy when we're
persecuted "for righteousness sake".

 

[MamaZ]

wow.. I don't have to have rug burns on my knee. LOL..When I pray I don't look for the answer in the way I believe it should be answered. He always answers my prayer but it is always for my good and His glory.

 

[christianmomof3]

The purpose of prayer is to contact God.
Petition, or asking God to do things, is one type of prayer.
But, praising the Lord and thanking Him are also prayer.
God never said He would give us everything we ask for when we pray.
He only said that He would answer the prayers that are according to His will.

Jn 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Jn 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Jn 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Jn 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

Jn 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

To pray in His name is not to say the words "in Jesus name I pray" and expect that those are the magic words to get a request honored. To pray in His name is to pray in Him. When we are abiding in Him - dwelling in Him, with Him dwelling in us and allowing the Lord Himself to guide our prayer, then we are praying in His name.

He also said that when we pray, and give thanks, He will give us His peace.

Phil. 4:6 In nothing be anxious, but in everything, by prayer and petition with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God;
7 And the peace of God, which surpasses every man's understanding, will guard your hearts and your thoughts in Christ Jesus.

Often times, when we ask the Lord for things, we are asking for something that we do not really need - like a child asking to eat ice cream three times a day, or we are asking for something that is not according to the Lord's will. But, no matter what, if we are contacting Him with thanksgiving, He will give us His peace and we will know how to be satisfied in any situation because He is with us.
That is what we all really need - is to have the Lord as our peace and joy and satisfaction in all situations. Remember Paul was praising the Lord when he was in prison. He was not griping and asking to be set free, but was praising the Lord and preaching the gospel to the jailer.
And then, he was set free. But, even if he had not been, he was still praising the Lord.

Praising the Lord in all situations and enjoying Him in every situation is the real freedom.

I have heard a story comparing our life and our troubles to being on a raft in a river with big rocks just under the surface. The rocks are our troubles. It is our natural concept to ask the Lord to remove the rocks. And sometimes He does. But more often, He may simply raise the level of the water so that we can glide over the rocks safely.

 

[Melethiel]

A large beef I have with Western Christianity is the idea that when one prays for whatever one wishes, it will be instantaneously answered (almost like "magic").

Whoah dude. Way to (wrongly) generalize about Western Christianity.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Bellicus, I can`t remember if I have answered your question already, and if I have, put it down to " mistakes will happen." When you say " intented," do you mean the exact way you ask? If you are a Christian, and you ask God as your Father, you may find that God answers your plea, or question, as loving Father would. God does know our needs, and God knows what is best for us. If your prayer is a one-off prayer, there may be 2 ways, which God answers your prayer, always depending how sincere you are. ( God sees our hearts, He knows what we really think) If it is a prayer concerning only you, God will answer quickly with Yes, No. If others are involved, God may tell you to wait, because God will not force anybody, to do as you may want him, or her, to do. If it really is important to you, you will need to keep praying for the need, you will have to let God know, that you love Him and trust Him to be able to help. God is our Father in Heaven, whom we love, and who loves us, and He will answer our prayer, Bellicus. God will not act a magician, who will give a shortlived illusion. I say this humbly and with love. Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[ticker]

Hey there sun

God does work in us through our problems, works on other's too.
But He can work in us just as easily through His voice.
A wise man heareth and increases knowledge

Sure.

And no, just because we pray, it doesnt mean that the 'problem'
will go away. Sometimes what we perceive as a problem is a
blessing in disguise. Sometimes a 'problem' is the natural consequences
of something we've caused and cannot be 'undone'.
But then God will always help us and comfort us in that trial too.

Dido.

I'm not sure what you mean, but yes God is sovereign,
and in His sovereignty He told 'us' to get wisdom.
7 Wisdom is the principal thing;
therefore get wisdom:
and with all thy getting get understanding.


Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not;


1 The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel;
2 To know wisdom and instruction;
to perceive the words of understanding;
3 To receive the instruction of wisdom,
justice, and judgment, and equitya;
4 To give subtilty to the simple,
to the young man knowledge and discretionb.
5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning;
and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
6 To understand a proverb, and the interpretationc;
the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.

But are you saying it's essentially up to us make ourselves wise enough to be the Christians God intends for us to be? I'd say it's up to God.

Sure, wisdom is good. But do you see how at the end of the day, everything really comes from God (...even the desire to seek more wisdom)?

Also, some wisdom we get from seeking out (...through prayer, scriptural study, etc...), but some wisdom we just get (...from past experience, revelation, etc...).

Still, regardless of how much wisdom we have, there are times when we're gonna blow it....and I was just saying how God could always provide us with the wisdom, previous experience, or know-how (...or the desire to seek wisdom) in those times we're bound blow it (...but He hasn't always, has He?)

Everything falls under God's sovereignty, yes.
Cheating on a loved one cannot be attributed to God,
God never tempts with evil.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God:
for God cannot be tempted with evilc, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin:
and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above,
and cometh down from the Father of lights,
with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth,
that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

That's right...God didn't tempt with infidelity, but He allowed it to happen (....and again, even though He was able to give you the wisdom...or the desire to seek the wisdom...to avoid it from happening).

The blame game doesnt help, but in order to know what, if anything
to do about a problem, I do have to know if it's a change that I need
to make, or if it's the devil trying to .. kill, steal, or destroy.
if the devil's trying to mess w/ my mind, I need to suit up and use
the weapons of our warfare, that are not carnal, but mighty
through God to the pulling down of strongholds...

Yeah...knowing where the problem lies is good.

God is in control, but He's given us some choices as well.
He is the one who said that as a man sows that shall that
man also reap. He doesnt force us to sow good or evil.
(I set before you life and death, choose life)
God is sovereign, but/and if I put water in my gas
tank and then my car doesnt run and so I cannot
drive to work, it wasnt GOD's fault or credit that
I didnt get a paycheck.
God hates foolishness, and He said that a wise man
will 'hear' and increase learning.
He says not to be drunk with wine which is excess,
but to be instead, filled with the Spirit.
If I become drunk and smash into another car causing
myself to lose my driving priveleges..
God didnt tempt me to do that, but He can and does
make all things work for the good.
Even my bad choices.

Nope...God wouldn't cause you to get drunk or fill your gas tank up with water, but again, He might allow those things to happen (...even though He could have you avoid them altogether).

Peace out! (...God's giving me the wisdom to get to my work....lotsa work this week).

 

[mishmoo]

Dear brother,
Do not give up your faith, our Lord Almighty hears your prayers. And your cries of anguish have fallen also upon the ears of your brothers and sisters in Christ, so we too will pray on your behalf.
May the Lord Almighty give you the strength to endure not only the hardships that you face, but also the strength to earnestly seek Him and to love Him with all of your heart.

Do not be afraid, for the Lord Almighty will not forsake you, nor will He forsake anyone who calls upon His glorious name. Pray to Him constantly for strength, faith and patience. Allow Him to guide you, and pray for the courage to follow. Remember Also to humble yourself before mankind and before our Lord God.

You may already know this but I say these things as a gentle reminder. But may I suggest that spiritual healing may have to take place before physical healing may begin.

May God bless you.

 

[sunlover1]

Hey there sun

Morning ticker!

But are you saying it's essentially up to us make ourselves wise enough to be the Christians God intends for us to be? I'd say it's up to God

.
That's a hoot, wise enough to be what God intends for us. Cant imagine
that day.
No, that's not what I was saying, heck no. I was just saying that while
God is ABLE To just fill us with wisdom by osmosis or some supernatural
means, He gives us the ability and the tools and even the instructions
on how to get wisdom. All wisdom comes from God, but not all Christians
get some. Maybe that makes more sense, maybe not. It's just how
I understand it mind you, I'm not saying that I'm correct. Yikes.

Sure, wisdom is good. But do you see how at the end of the day, everything really comes from God (...even the desire to seek more wisdom)?

You betcha, and at the beginning of the day too.
One of my favorite passages says that every good and perfect
gift is from above, from the Father of lights, in whom there is
no shadow nor turning.

Also, some wisdom we get from seeking out (...through prayer, scriptural study, etc...), but some wisdom we just get (...from past experience, revelation, etc...).

GREAT point. All wise teaching is from God.
And some still dont receive wisdom from their experiences,
or even from revelation, because they're foolish.
A fool despises wisdom and instruction.

Still, regardless of how much wisdom we have, there are times when we're gonna blow it....and I was just saying how God could always provide us with the wisdom, previous experience, or know-how (...or the desire to seek wisdom) in those times we're bound blow it (...but He hasn't always, has He?)

Yes, He could amen. And I believe that He does. Again, it's not Him
that's the problem, it's us. We do not listen, we do not heed.

That's right...God didn't tempt with infidelity, but He allowed it to happen (....and again, even though He was able to give you the wisdom...or the desire to seek the wisdom...to avoid it from happening).

Again, I believe that He does speak to the hearts of His
people giving them the direction and the power against temptation.
But they choose not to listen.

I just have a hard time understanding how mental illness would
be a blessing from God. Why would God ordain something that
would cause one of his children to be ineffective?
It would seem to me that the enemy would desire to destory
God's children, or if he couldnt destroy them, at least render
them helpless to stand or to hold forth the Word of Life.

It looks more like bondage.

And when he had opened the book,
he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he hath anointed me to
preach the gospel to the poor;
he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted,
to preach deliverance to the captives,
and recovering of sight to the blind,
to set at liberty them that are bruised,
To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=47843684#_ftn1
http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=47843684#_ftnref1

 

[ticker]

Morning, sun

No....no illness is a blessing. But problems that are allowed to keep happening is God at work also. He doesn't cause a problem to happen or give it as a blessing, but allows it to keep happening until He's accomplished what He wants out of it (molding us into who/what He intends us to be).

His glory will come out of the circumstance. That's all that matters.


EDIT: Oops...work.

 

[sunlover1]

Morning, sun

No....no illness is a blessing.

Hi ticker, why arent you working?

I am so disagreeable that I have to say that
someone I know got ill, and if they hadnt
they wouldnt have gone to the doctor and
found out they needed surgury for something
entirely different.
(JUst messing with you ticker)

But problems that are allowed to keep happening is God at work also.

Always?

He doesn't cause a problem to happen or give it as a blessing, but allows it to keep happening until He's accomplished what He wants out of it (molding us into who/what He intends us to be).

So there is no such thing as bondage?
Or is bondage something that God authors?

His glory will come out of the circumstance. That's all that matters.

His glory is all that matters indeed.

 

[Thekla]

St. Paul had a thorn -- he prayed (talk about prayer potential, this is Paul !)
and was not relieved.

Mental illness is a huge cross -- even looking from the outside, it can be horrifying.
Our struggles are allowed by God; everything God wills or allows is for salvation. Thats the end-all.

Can it be that every Christian child who suffers starvation has parents with inadequate faith ?

Our prayers for our son were weak. But there were hundreds praying for him, many were people of immense and beautiful faith. The answer was the strength to go on and medical treatment. Its not perfect, but the difference - the before and after - is larger than I can express.

If God does not heal us, then I trust that this is because He desires most of all our salvation.