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Why don't more creationists think like Todd Wood?

46AND2

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The topic that was being discussed was creation and evolution. That was what the "what would change your mind" question was concerning. The topic was not whether he would change his mind about god or not. In other words, what would change his mind about his understanding of creation and evolution. The debate wasn't about Christianity and Atheism, so neither was the question; a question of that sort would not be in the purview of the topic being discussed.

To deflect his statement as merely being about the Bible being the word of god is shortsighted. It was a creation/evolution debate, and therefore his interpretation of the Bible is also under scrutiny of the question.

Answers in Genesis Statement of faith:

https://answersingenesis.org/about/faith/

explicitly says that this is what they do. They explain what they believe about the scriptural record...a literal six days, Noachian flood, etc. and then end their statement with:

By definition, no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the scriptural record.

Again, I am not making up a strawman version of what many creationists believe. It's right there in their own words.
 
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TCassidy

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Again, I am not making up a strawman version of what many creationists believe. It's right there in their own words.
Exactly. No apparent evidence, no perceived evidence, no claimed evidence can legitimately contradict the word of God.

As the bumper sticker said, "God said it. I believe it. That settles it."
 
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DogmaHunter

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On the contrary. I was once an evolutionist, but the science made me change my views

That makes no sense, since the science is all about evolution.

Whatever convinced you, it wasn't the science.


And here we go, with an another round of "i know better then all the experts who actually study this for a living. everyone should just listen to me"
 
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DogmaHunter

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But let's look at those responses a bit more closely.


Those responses are quite clear and don't need much elaboration.

It shows that Ken Ham believes his religious dogmatically and that Bill Nye just goes where the evidence leads him. If tomorrow new evidence shows him wrong - he'll change his views.

If tomorrow new evidence shows ken ham wrong..... he'll say that the evidence is incorrect.


Yes, he would actually have to start hodling rational beliefs that are based on actual evidence. He would actually have to start being intellectually honest. He would actually have to ackowledge that if reality contradicts your beliefs, it's not reality that is incorrect...........

And he's saying that can't do that. He is thus wilfully ignorant. Intellectually dishonest. And in terms of actual science topics - completely irrelevant.

Bill Nye, on the other hand has rejected what Ken Ham believes to be eyewitness testimony

Yes. Because there isn't a single reason to accept those claims. Bill Nye, actually cares about evidence. Actually cares about being rationally justified in his beliefs. He cares that what he beliefs, is actually accurate. He doesn't like holding false beliefs. Which is why he values evidence.

and looks at other evidence he considers more reliable even though he seems to be saying his opinion of that evidence is subject to change.

He's saying that opinions about evidence are irrelevant. The evidence is what matters.
If you have a belief that states that there are no competitive sports that use balls smaller then a tennis ball, then your beliefs about that should change upon observing ping-pong, regardless of your opinions concerning ping-pong.

Objective facts trump faith based beliefs, any day of the week.

So, this is a case of both believing what they believe on the basis of the evidence they consider "best evidence."

False. If Ken Ham's beliefs were evidence based, then new evidence would be capable of changing his beliefs. And he's flat out denying that. No amount of evidence could change his religious beliefs. Those are his own words.

So no, Ken Ham most definatly doesn't base his beliefs on evidence.

The problem is that each one rejects the other's evidence as being "best evidence."

No. Bill Nye just accepts evidence. Ken Ham rejects any and all evidence which contradicts his a priori religious views.

The difference is clear.

So, which evidence is considered more reliable?
The evidence that you can independently test and verify.

Circumstantial evidence or eyewitness testimony?

Eyewitness testimony are just claims.
Objective evidence trumps claims, any day of the week.

If 100 people to have seen person X at bar Y, while DNA evidence places person X at the other side of the country at that specific time, then the 100 people are wrong or lying.
 
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DogmaHunter

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And, again the ad hominem. He does not consider his understanding to be infallible. He believes that which he is trying to understand is infallible.

I don't see the difference.
The result is the same: he considers it impossible that he's wrong.

While Bill Nye is saying "I could be wrong. If you think I'm wrong -show me wrong and I'll happily change my views. I'll even thank you, I like to learn!"
 
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46AND2

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Exactly. No apparent evidence, no perceived evidence, no claimed evidence can legitimately contradict the word of God.

As the bumper sticker said, "God said it. I believe it. That settles it."

As I said, conclusion before even looking at evidence.

Glad we could agree on that.
 
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Speedwell

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No, he would not have to stop believing God and believing His word is inspired and infallible. He would just have to stop believing that the creation stories of Genesis were meant to be taken as accurate literal history. That is what he said that no evidence could cause him to do.
 
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TCassidy

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The result is the same: he considers it impossible that he's wrong.
You keep repeating this same false charge. He does not think he is incapable of wrong. He thinks God is incapable of wrong.

So, as we both just keep saying the same thing over and over I suspect this discussion has run its course. And my initial observation has proven correct. Neither side is willing to accept the other side's "best evidence" - or to even consider it.
 
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DogmaHunter

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You keep repeating this same false charge. He does not think he is incapable of wrong. He thinks God is incapable of wrong.

No. He is absolutely convinced that he can not be wrong concerning his religious beliefs.
If it was merely the idea that god can't be wrong, then he could still be wrong in his understanding about what god is actually saying (like for example, that genesis isn't supposed to be a literal history text).

But that's not at all the case here.
It really is so that he believes that it is impossible that he is wrong about his interpretation of what he believes are god's words.

THAT'S the position he's unwilling to budge from, no matter what kind of evidence is presented.

Do you understand the difference?

So, as we both just keep saying the same thing over and over I suspect this discussion has run its course.

It rather seems to be a case of you not fully comprehending what I am saying....
As noted above. There's a difference between:
"god's words can't be wrong"
and
"my understanding of god's words can't be wrong".

And I'll again note that in both cases, it results in having a dogmatic worldview where the person believes it impossible to being wrong..................


In either case, it's an intellectually dishonest position without merrit.
 
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Speedwell

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You keep repeating this same false charge. He does not think he is incapable of wrong. He thinks God is incapable of wrong.
He believes God cannot be wrong. He also believes his arbitrary decision to regard Genesis as accurate literal history cannot be wrong. It is that second belief we are talking about.

Believing that Genesis is the infallible, inspired word of God is one thing; deciding that it must be accurate literal history is quite another. I don't know why you insist on confusing the two.
 
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TCassidy

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As noted above. There's a difference between:
"god's words can't be wrong"
and
"my understanding of god's words can't be wrong".
Except he never said "my understanding of god's words can't be wrong".
 
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Tom 1

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Maybe he just knows a lot more about it than most.
 
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46AND2

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Except he never said "my understanding of god's words can't be wrong".

Yes. He did. When asked what, if anything, would change his mind, the question was specifically about creation and evolution. And he said nothing could change his mind. Therefore, nothing can change his mind from being a YEC to being a theistic evolutionist.
 
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Speedwell

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I don't. Obviously.
Do you believe that they are the same thing--that believing the Bible to be the infallible word of God entails belief in the literal historicity of Genesis? That may indeed be the position of Ken Ham, who might not realize that they are two distinct issues.
 
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TCassidy

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Do you believe that they are the same thing--that believing the Bible to be the infallible word of God entails belief in the literal historicity of Genesis?
No. But neither do I deny Ken Ham, or anyone else, the right to believe such.

That may indeed be the position of Ken Ham, who might not realize that they are two distinct issues.
He may not believe the two are distinct. Or he may. Either way his belief system is his. He may well believe he has evidence which supports his belief system as he believes it. In most cases that evidence tends to be subjective, but he still has the right to believe it.
 
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TCassidy

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Show me a direct quote where he said "my understanding of god's words can't be wrong".
 
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