Why Don't Christian's Witness About Jesus?

FireDragon76 · Mar 13, 2019

SPF said:
The reality that I see is Lutheran's calling other Lutheran's apostate on this very forum.

Some might, but others don't. Most of the discussion is civil and amicable. The most charitable types will say we cannot have pulpit and altar fellowship with each other due to insufficient agreement, but that's not the same as saying we are apostates. Lutherans can and do cooperate across synodical lines. We've had get-togethers and gatherings locally, and we have shared missions and parachurch ministries. We just don't have a formal liturgy together, because for us worship is more than just a meeting with some hymns and prayers. It represents the highest form of unity, since we gather together in the same confession of faith and share the same sacraments. It is not shaped by the same kind of individualism that marks most of American Evangelicalism.

Being broad-minded and socially responsible is good... until it goes to the point of compromising the moral commands and teachings of Scripture. There is nothing good about a Church that endorses and accepts and encourages actions that Scripture consider sinful.

Who defines what is and is not Scriptural? You seem to have a naive understanding of biblical interpretation.

SPF · Mar 13, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
Some might, but others don't.

Of course, but the point remains that some do. The obvious point I was making is that even denominations are now clearly becoming fractured and splitting.

FireDragon76 said:
Who defines what is and is not Scriptural? You seem to have a naive understanding of biblical interpretation.

And you seem to continue to make judgmental and condescending responses to people all over this forum. I suspect my education far exceeds yours, but that's neither here nor there. Whether we agree or not about who defines what is or what is not Biblical, I would think we can agree that America is becoming more morally corrupt with each passing generation. I know you like to argue virtually every chance you can, but surely that is something you too have seen. The moral decay of our culture and society is nothing new.

And the sad reality is that it is apparent that many Churches are becoming more and more postmodern and watered down in their position on moral issues.

FireDragon76 · Mar 13, 2019

SPF said:
, I would think we can agree that America is becoming more morally corrupt with each passing generation. I know you like to argue virtually every chance you can, but surely that is something you too have seen. The moral decay of our culture and society is nothing new.

No, I don't believe that. I believe every generation has its challenges and I refuse to condemn this one merely because people face different challenges.

And the sad reality is that it is apparent that many Churches are becoming more and more postmodern and watered down in their position on moral issues.

As if being right was the be-all, end-all of Christianity?

Kaon · Mar 13, 2019

Thess said:
I"m 51 and I'd say that I've had two different moments in my life when I was approached about Christ. Once was by a couple that knocked on my door from an actual Christian Church.

1. How is this even possible?
2. If this Church (the body of Christ) has abandoned "obedience" to such lengths, is there any reason to think that Jesus won't be returning soon?

[Rom 3:12 NLT] "All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one."

Two different occasions in 51.5 years? "Confidence Is From The Lord" is a false teaching folks. This evil statement along with, "Just Pray About It" are two of the most destructive false teachings rampant in the "Church" today.

God, forgive them all, for they know not what they do. But as for our false teachers whom have led us astray....may that Goliath millstone be tightly noosed and may you do to them as you did to the generation of Benjamites who raped honorable women to death!

Few people want to hear about it, and we were told not to "cast our pearls before swine," to recognize the signs of the end, and to simply exhibit the essence of the Redeemer through our lives.

The bible canon is on the entire plane of existence in a plethora of languages. Missionaries still go out and teach. But, the world has been flooded with false-teachers that not only make stumbling blocks for believers, but repel souls to be saved.

In the end, there will only be a remnant; we are watching the consequences of the end of an age.

SPF · Mar 13, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
No, I don't believe that. I believe every generation has its challenges and I refuse to condemn this one merely because people face different challenges.

Well I certainly find it hard to believe that you don't think America has morally declined over the past generations. You're certainly the first person I've ever heard to suggest that. I think the only way someone could potentially argue that would be if they believed morality was entirely subjective.

However, I think the picture Scripture teaches is that God is immutable in His character, and that morality stems from that, and that Scripture provides us with the basis for understanding what is right and what is wrong. And if it is true that morality is objective and that Scripture does provide the foundation for understanding what is moral and not, then we can actually take what Scripture teaches and look at culture and make a determination as to whether or not secular culture is in a moral decline.

And indeed, I don't know of any credible theologian that would actually argue that American culture is not in moral decline. Perhaps you can provide some support for your position?

FireDragon76 said:
As if being right was the be-all, end-all of Christianity?

Certainly it's not, and hopefully nobody would say it is. You do seem to have this tendency though of making statements as if the people you are talking to are saying them when they are not.

A Realist · Mar 13, 2019

I tend to think that a great portion of "current" immorality already existed and that the preponderance of social media, 24/7 news, and the internet has brought it to light.

RDKirk · Mar 13, 2019

Ing Bee said:
I suggest some extensive study of the New Testament texts to answer the following questions:

What are we to be sharing? (i.e. What is the "good news" according to Jesus and the apostles?)

How are we to be sharing?

To whom are we to be sharing?

When are we to be sharing?

What "percentage" of the individual Christian life is proclamation vs. other things? (Is the kingdom about words or power? More transformation or more confrontation?)

What is the balance between corporate witness and individual sharing? (i.e. the church as the pillar and buttress of the truth)

Are all Christians equipped with the same spiritual gifts? Should we then expect all to be uniform in their proclamation?

Is there something unique about Paul and the other disciples mission or do we all have the same job description?

In passages discussing verbal proclamation, how many of then are directed at all believers? When that happens, what is the context and what is the emphasis?

Is 'the gospel' more frequently portrayed as something believers (as a group) are to cling to, be transformed by, and "adorned" or proclaimed on street corners to strangers?

Are "perfect strangers to the gospel" the basic kind of person Paul and Peter address, or do they more often speak in locations specifically dedicated to public proclamation of ideas or to individuals prepared for the news or indicating interest (e.g. Cornelius, Ethiopian eunuch,

After initially sharing in a town, do Paul and his associates continue to street preach or do they shift gears and focus on something different? Do they encourage everyone else to do so instead of them?

Keep in mind a few points:

'witness' in the N.T. always (when speaking of sharing the gospel) refers to those who physically saw Jesus with their eyes (a requirement for apostelship, see Acts 1). Therefore, no one today can properly be a 'witness' to the Christ in the biblical sense.

Paul (in his pastoral letters to Timothy and Titus) does not include gospel-sharing as a focus for believers, instead emphasizing godly, community-of-love behavior among unbelievers as the crucial link in drawing others to personal trust in Christ.

'testimony' (related to the word for 'witness' and where the term "martyr" derives) in the N.T. is most frequently connected to God's own testimony in the Son. The word is not used as a term of daily speaking on the part of Christians, but as a revealed truth (from God) that they cling to (see Revelation 11 and 12 for examples).

Paul considered that the gospel had gone out into the ends of the earth and had been heard by all in his lifetime ( Romans 10:14-21) and that he had accomplished all he was meant to do (2 Timothy 4)

'evangelist' appears only 3 times in the New Testament (Acts 21:8, Ephesians 4:11, 2 Timothy 4:5), all three times indicating specialized, spirit-gifted individuals, not the church in general

Happy studying!

.

RDKirk · Mar 13, 2019

A Realist said:
I tend to think that a great portion of "current" immorality already existed and that the preponderance of social media, 24/7 news, and the internet has brought it to light.

From what I read in scripture, the total global volume of anti-Christian morality should steadily increase over time.

That doesn't mean there aren't periodic and temporary eddies of relatively more righteousness in various areas from time to time.

But it's also true that people will have a tendency to think they are in one of those eddies when, in fact, they're not.

Archivist · Mar 13, 2019

SPF said:
Whether we agree or not about who defines what is or what is not Biblical, I would think we can agree that America is becoming more morally corrupt with each passing generation. I know you like to argue virtually every chance you can, but surely that is something you too have seen. The moral decay of our culture and society is nothing new.

I have to disagree. In the 1920s men and women were having affairs, people were consuming illegal drugs, and mass killings were taking place. What they didn't have in the 1920s was social media. Back then things happened and unless it was reported on the radio by NBC, CBS or Mutual Broadcasting or in a major newspaper no one heard about it. Today we have instantaneous communications, 24 hour news and social media.

And the sad reality is that it is apparent that many Churches are becoming more and more postmodern and watered down in their position on moral issues.

Perhaps. Of course there are, sadly, some Christians who would say that allowing interracial marriage was a watered-down position on a moral issue.

Thess · Mar 13, 2019

Oscarr said:
The problem is that in many areas the church has gone from a mission to lost sinners to a "bless me" emphasis. They are more interesting in what God can do for them, than what God can do for lost sinners.

This is why invitations to church are, "Come to our lively services and receive a blessing from God. Enjoy our happy music and our preacher's interesting and inspiring sermons; and we will give you tea and biscuits afterwards!"

Churches like that are ministering in the area of the soul, instead of the spirit. They are more interested in happy, clappy services where people feel good, than to preach the gospel that makes disciples for Christ.

I can imagine the Holy Spirit standing out in the car park with His hands in His pockets waiting for the invitation to come in and take part in the services, but because they prefer the sensual, emotional, "feel good" stuff, they quench the Spirit and leave Him outside.

Real church services that have the Holy Spirit in attendance in the members are characterised by the strong preaching of Christ and Him crucified and risen again, and having souls saved, bodies healed, and demonic influence defeated. Of course there is plenty of joy and rejoicing in these churches, but it is the result of what God is doing in the services, not hyping things up to try and get God to move.

What a great post. Thank you so much! The way in which you have written, which such a soft a gentle tone and feel to it, is certainly something that I aspire to, but all should aspire to be more of how you have demonstrated yourself. The Holy Spirit is within you; it is easy to tell and feel.

I love all that you've said. I hope that some will listen to what you've written; so I say we watch the Power of God at work, and see what Holy things will be done....perhaps through your own example. Again, you have a tremendous, and perhaps Spiritual gift of writing. You could and perhaps already are a very, very useful tool for God. What an honor!

ace of hearts · Mar 13, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
I doubt it. It represents the weakness, fragmentation and privatization of religion as people respond to fear and mistrust of institutional belonging.

Yes I see the privatization of religion. More and more pastors obligate the group to them via building loans, if not outright ownership of the property. It's kinda hard to fire the owner.

Presbyterian Continuist · Mar 13, 2019

Bible bashing people and getting into their faces is not witnessing for Jesus. Living a life glorifying Christ and letting our light shine before people is the more effective witness. They will read us before they read the Bible.

If they see that we are loving, joyful, peaceable, gentle, kind, good, faithful, patient and self controlled at home, at work, while doing the shopping, on a grey Monday morning at work, when a car cuts in front of us on the road, then they will see the vast difference between us and worldly people. They may not always ask us up front, but there will be questions in their minds: "What is it about that person that they were so patient with me when I fender bended their car at the intersection? Or what was it about that person who, when I couldn't pay my fare on the bus, paid it for me? Or what was it about my employee when I reprimanded him about an error he made, that he took with patience and humility?

Those are what it means to witness to Christ. Those are the behaviour that generate questions in people's minds that give opportunities to tell people what Jesus has done for you and what you can do for them.

GingerBeer · Mar 13, 2019

Thess said:
I"m 51 and I'd say that I've had two different moments in my life when I was approached about Christ. Once was by a couple that knocked on my door from an actual Christian Church.

1. How is this even possible?
2. If this Church (the body of Christ) has abandoned "obedience" to such lengths, is there any reason to think that Jesus won't be returning soon?

[Rom 3:12 NLT] "All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one."

Two different occasions in 51.5 years? "Confidence Is From The Lord" is a false teaching folks. This evil statement along with, "Just Pray About It" are two of the most destructive false teachings rampant in the "Church" today.

God, forgive them all, for they know not what they do. But as for our false teachers whom have led us astray....may that Goliath millstone be tightly noosed and may you do to them as you did to the generation of Benjamites who raped honorable women to death!

Jehovah's witnesses, Mormons, and occasionally Seventh Day Adventists knock at the door or leave literature in your mail box but did you join them? Is that approach persuasive? It isn't biblical, but that may not matter so much. People do lots of things that are not biblical and expect to be praised for doing them. Like sending money to a televangelist, expecting a miracle when they touch a TV screen as some famous person prays for their bodily ills and so forth. Some call that "faith". So with going from door to door delivering literature or presenting a message from your denomination/organisation. It's just something that a group or two want to do to gain recruits and if that is what you're advocating as a "Christian" thing to do and as something that is a shame for Christians not to do then you're mistaken. It is mainly annoying to have unwanted religious solicitations brought to your door. I don't like it when somebody knocks to tell me about their local Kingdom Hall's "Lord's evening meal" commemoration and hands to me a little fold out "invitation" to the event. I refuse it and suggest that they keep it for somebody who may be interested. I make an effort to be polite but I am not interested in joining their organisation - not even a tiny bit interested.

FireDragon76 · Mar 13, 2019

Years ago I had some PC-USA Presbyterian folks came to our house and just tell us about their new church and they invited us. Though we never went, I appreciate that their approach was straightforward and wasn't about trying to persuade me that my own religious beliefs were inadequate.

FireDragon76 · Mar 13, 2019

ace of hearts said:
Yes I see the privatization of religion. More and more pastors obligate the group to them via building loans, if not outright ownership of the property. It's kinda hard to fire the owner.

In smaller religious groups, there tends to be less accountability and ownership of church properties is in fewer and fewer hands. That's not a sign of spiritual vitality, necessarily, that's a sign of somebody who has given up the hard work of actually contributing to a community themselves in favor of handing it over to what often amounts to cults of personality.

My S.O. used to belong to a renegade Nazarene church that had an abusive pastor that was attempting to split off the church from the denomination and do his own thing. He was eventually defrocked by Nazarenes and the property was reposessed. In alot of smaller religious denominations or non-denominational church, abusive leaders can easily get away with that much easier, and there's no one to stop them or hold them accountable.

ace of hearts · Mar 13, 2019

I do have another question about witnessing to others. I eat lunch with people who wear religious themed ball caps 3 times a week along with 30 others in a mixed crowd of believers and unbelievers. I wonder if some one can explain why no one in over 5 years has approached them with even a religious question. Another occasionally comes and passes out tracts to most every one with no response. Yes we talk to each other. I pretty much get along with every one. Even passed out roses to the ladies with no intent or special occasion. What else should we do?

ace of hearts · Mar 13, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
In smaller religious groups, there tends to be less accountability and ownership of church properties is in fewer and fewer hands. That's not a sign of spiritual vitality, necessarily, that's a sign of somebody who has given up the hard work of actually contributing to a community themselves in favor of handing it over to what often amounts to cults of personality.

My S.O. used to belong to a renegade Nazarene church that had an abusive pastor that was attempting to split off the church from the denomination and do his own thing. He was eventually defrocked by Nazarenes and the property was reposessed. In alot of smaller religious denominations or non-denominational church, abusive leaders can easily get away with that much easier, and there's no one to stop them or hold them accountable.

I've seen it from small to large. So I don't quite concur with you. That's OK. BTW I also identify with you on what some will do. "Tis very sad indeed.

ace of hearts · Mar 13, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
Years ago I had some PC-USA Presbyterian folks came to our house and just tell us about their new church and they invited us. Though we never went, I appreciate that their approach was straightforward and wasn't about trying to persuade me that my own religious beliefs were inadequate.

That's very acceptable way to reach out to people.

Thess · Mar 13, 2019

Oscarr said:
The problem is that in many areas the church has gone from a mission to lost sinners to a "bless me" emphasis. They are more interesting in what God can do for them, than what God can do for lost sinners.

This is why invitations to church are, "Come to our lively services and receive a blessing from God. Enjoy our happy music and our preacher's interesting and inspiring sermons; and we will give you tea and biscuits afterwards!"

Churches like that are ministering in the area of the soul, instead of the spirit. They are more interested in happy, clappy services where people feel good, than to preach the gospel that makes disciples for Christ.

I can imagine the Holy Spirit standing out in the car park with His hands in His pockets waiting for the invitation to come in and take part in the services, but because they prefer the sensual, emotional, "feel good" stuff, they quench the Spirit and leave Him outside.

Real church services that have the Holy Spirit in attendance in the members are characterised by the strong preaching of Christ and Him crucified and risen again, and having souls saved, bodies healed, and demonic influence defeated. Of course there is plenty of joy and rejoicing in these churches, but it is the result of what God is doing in the services, not hyping things up to try and get God to move.

Thank you, and well said.

You know what would have helped me? I wished that someone would have slapped me, hard, right in the face. I wished that someone had cut off a hand, or something, just to wake me up so that I might understand. And while that may seem drastic, it isn't. That's exactly how real God is to me, so while I am grate that I have been fully awakened at such a late age, I realize how much more I could have accomplished by the end of my life, but God's plan is Powerful and Perfect. I have to keep myself in check when it comes to His Perfect Plan.

But anyway, I really do wish that I had preachers and teachers that would help me to determine whether or not I was saved. I couldn't believe, that when I started looking, there are ALL KINDS of passages that talk about how we can determine whether or not we are saved. Now, why is is that I've never recieved that teaching? Seems to me that if we did, we'd be able to quickly determine that our pastors and elders were fakes and frauds (unknowingly).

If I ever pastor a church, I will teach my Brothers and Sisters to test me in every way possible. I would fully teach them how to do this, so that they would be able to teach their Brothers and Sisters the exact same thing. Look, if we're going to teach "Transparency", then we as pastors had better live such pure lives that we could be 100% Transparent, which, by the way, is how one lives with a Clear Conscious. So I would have really appreciated if I had lot's of people in every church that I've ever membered, and took the time to confirm if I was truly saved. If they had, I would have had an opportunity to get my very deadly and destructive life in proper order. I was really weak, frightened, abused and just needed some "Christians" to take pity on me and give me some simple guidance. No one actually raised me, so I really got off to a late start. And no, I'm not a victim. We all have our own Sin Nature to contend with, and this is mine....big deal. Anyway, thanks again....great post.

Presbyterian Continuist · Mar 13, 2019

Thess said:
I've been in the "church" my entire life. There were no rules that had to be met, there were no real expectations. We didn't have to pass any tests or classes, really, so as to move on because of what we had learned in Sunday School, etc. Everyone assumed that we all knew the same things, and sadly, maybe we did.

Shorly after I was baptized, and with my long 1970's hair still wet, I proceeded to walk 1.5 blocks down the street and steal a bag of rubberbands for my newspaper business. I had no idea of what I had just done. "What, me? I just made a committment to be a.....a what? A SLAVE to Jesus?" I had no idea that I had made a public proclamation that I would abandon myself, completely and wholly, and dedicate my entire being to My lord, Master and Jesus. Of course, that day, the day of my baptism, my life just continued to spiral more and more out of control and deeper into sin. My church performed an incredible dis-service unto me, by allowing me to be baptized, which caused me to trust and believe that I really and truly was saved, a genuine "obedient" child of "God". But I was not. I no more had the Holy Spirit in me that Judas.

I have been lost and confused, right along with every, EVERY other "Christian" that I have been exposed to....which is thousands. How do I know? There was no Holy Love within their hearts. Regardless of what I said or what I did to try to get help, no one ever came to me. I was the weakest of the weak; really struggling in so many ways, yet no one ever came to me, just as the scriptures repeat over and over.

We, the flock....we are told what to do, what to think and what to say. I do not blame us, but I do hold our pastors, elders and teachers responsible, and I do this because God's tells us that He is holding them responsible. Not my words at all! But honestly, I do not even blame our immediate pastors, elders and teachers, for I don't know that they, nor anyone from generations prior, knew that we have all been involved with a fake, and desperately faulty system. I have awakened to this and just want to pass along the idea. May it be judged by people at will....I encourage that.

Since my awakening, a full Romans 12:2 transformation, I have learned that it is best for me to keep my mouth shut in terms of giving the Gospel to another, as I had so much to learn. I really, truly believed that I knew the New Testament, but my heart was hardened. It just was....and as much as I just can't hardly believe it, man, I was just not seeing very deep. Truly, how God hardens our hearts is nothing short of an amazing miracle in itself....I am so thankful for hardened hearts!

At this time in my thinking, I would say that unless we have been taught the Gospel by one that is genuinely indwelt by God's Illuminating Helper and Teacher, or unless we feel that God's Gracious Holy Spirit has taught us on His own accord, then we should remain silent until our wisdom turns to understanding. If we don't do that, we'll harm someone with a false gospel...and leading others astray, even into hell, is something that God takes very seriously. After feeling the Raw, Almighty Power of God, I choose to obey and no longer mess around.

I have lot's or responses to get to....I hope this was sufficient. Thank you for your gracious example by which to follow. Much respect....

None of us are perfect, and we make mistakes. I wonder what would be the effect on that shop owner if you went back to that shop and confessed that you had stolen the rubber bands and made restitution for them - that as a Christian you believed it is the right thing to do?

One thing that would happen - you would have a new sense of freedom and release in your spirit!

Why Don't Christian's Witness About Jesus?

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Living in Reality

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Cool and refreshing with a kick!

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency