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Featured Why Don't Christian's Witness About Jesus?

Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by Thess, Mar 11, 2019.

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  1. Thess

    Thess Well-Known Member

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    You just put chills up and down. You're right. I hadn't thought about the remnant as I diligently work on my study of the Holy Spirit. Seems to me that a "remnant" indicates "few".

    Scary....I hope the angry people, here, wake up soon. I just would stop messing around with being offended and start realizing that guys like you and me are their very best friend. We really, really need to get ready and wake up.

    Thanks for the post....very helpful.
     
  2. Thess

    Thess Well-Known Member

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    Great post!
     
  3. Thess

    Thess Well-Known Member

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    Everyone participating in this thread....thank you SO much. Each of you. It is so important, even at times to have our cages rattled, for even the teacher isn't above reproach....at least not this one. Again, thank you for the opportunity to share my passion with each of you.

    As we enjoy our lives, let's prove to the world who we are take a pause for the beautiful people in New Zealand.

    Dear Heavenly, Powerful, Almighty God of this Universe....please receive their spirits through Christ in some way. For the things that they have done, Father, forgive them, and any of my brothers and sisters, were somehow able, to lift off and share in the burden of their sins so that they might reign with us. We know that your understanding is great, and we know that if we can find love in our hearts for those whom we've yet to meet, and we know that if we can find grace and understanding for them, and if some of us here were perhaps willing to be responsible, so that somehow through Jesus, they might be saved. May we with gladness in our hearts, perhaps surrender a piece of our eternity with those whom God might love, because we loved them as well. For through the Love that God has planted in our hearts, and through the Sacrifice of Jesus on that important cross, may we now become so selfless so as to surrender a piece of ourselves for those whom we do not know.

    As for their offenders, forgive them for they know not of what they do. Bless those that you have chosen to reach their offenders hearts. In Jesus' Holy Name....Amen
     
  4. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    Leviticus 5 defines "witness," and that definition never changed throughout scripture. A witness is a person with first-hand knowledge--saw it with his eyes, heard it with his ears--of what he's talking about.

    Thus, yes, nobody today can claim to "witness" Christ's life, crucifixion, or resurrection.

    We have conflated "witness" with evangelism, but they are two different things:

    Evangelism is telling people what Jesus did for them.

    Witnessing is telling people what Jesus did for you.

    As scripture tells us, not everyone is an evangelist. The New Testament provides a model for evangelism which contains four points:

    1. An evangelist is called to the office by the Holy Spirit and given spiritual power to accomplish it.

    2. An evangelist must be thoroughly trained in the gospel by teachers in the church.

    3. An evangelist is commissioned for his particular mission by the elders of the church.

    4. An evangelist is accountable to the church and must report on his mission when it is completed.

    Those are the things we see in scripture regarding the evangelist.

    What we see regarding being a witness is this: "How can we not speak of what we have seen and heard?"

    A witness of what he has seen and heard does not need to know theology. The Samaritan woman at the well did not know theology. The blind man given sight did not know theology. "I don't know what He's preaching--you go talk to Him yourself. I only know that I was blind and know I see!"

    Not every Christian is an evangelist, but every Christian should be a witness. Every Christian should be able to tell of what Jesus has done in his or her life.

    We should not devalue the power of witness, saying, "This is what Jesus has done for me: This is how I was once lost, but this is how I am now found!"

    The Samaritan woman brought the whole town to Jesus by her witness. Paul never did that well.
     
  5. david shelby

    david shelby New Member

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    But even this "what Jesus has done for me" thing is a stretch. Its not like you were sitting blind on the street in the 1st century and Jesus healed your eye sight and you went and told what Jesus had OBJECTIVELY done for you. People may tell a story how they were drug addicts and heard about Jesus and they gave up the drugs, but its SUBJECTIVE. They can't witness that Jesus did it. They did it in response to what they heard about Jesus. People who convert to Judaism can make the same claim that Moses healed them of drug addiction, i.e. that some rabbi preached Judaism to them and they gave up drugs. In reality, you're witnessing that a particular religious idea helped you get motivated to change yourself, not that Jesus himself objectively actively did anything. So, no, even in this sense of witnessing "what Jesus has done for me" I don't believe its possible to "witness" anything about Jesus. All you can do is give people your subjective interpretation of how you feel Jesus was actively and objectively involved in a change in your lifestyle that other people will look at and interpret differently, i.e. as that your belief in Jesus helped you find the motivation for self improvement, but he really wasn't there doing anything actively.
     
  6. misput

    misput jimd

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    The way we live our life, how we interact and help others is our main witness. Verbally telling others about Christ, going to chursh, bible study etc are just tiny parts of witnessing.
     
  7. misput

    misput jimd

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    A preacher who delivers several sermons a week, visits the sick etc, must know that is just a small part of his witness. How he lives the larger portion of his life is his greatest witness.
     
  8. misput

    misput jimd

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    Knowing these things we should all realize we come up far short of deserving salvation but this is where love and grace comes in!
     
  9. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    All witness is subjective, pretty much by definition.

    The point is that the person is relating their own first-hand experience.

    I can tell you that the movie I saw last night was the best movie I've ever seen.

    Remember the story of the blind man Jesus healed by smearing mud on his eyes? The man could have said, "Wow, that's some great dirt they've got at Capernaum!" instead of attributing it to Jesus. In fact, in today's world I'm sure most people would claim it was some chemical factor of the dirt.

    The hearer can believe it or not believe it. That's not the responsibility of the witness.
     
  10. Thess

    Thess Well-Known Member

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    Pardon me if I've already asked, but what is your usual process for witnessing?
     
  11. Thess

    Thess Well-Known Member

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    What if your religious beliefs were mistaken? Wouldn't you want to know? I'd rather someone take one of my hands so as to wake me up so that I would have stopped hurting so many people. I would loved to have served under Paul....I love the way he sees things.
     
  12. Thess

    Thess Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for your post. The single most important thing that you can do is to truly know the Holy Spirit. "Christians talk about God and Jesus, but there isn't much deep discussion between the average believers. When we become indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and the more Power the better, the Spirit places Holy Desires into our hearts so that we will not only know what to do, but the Spirit helps to shape our thinking so that we will understand what we have done so that we might share our inspired successes to others. But again, the absolute key to understanding how to witness is dependent upon your understanding, not wisdom, but understanding of Scriptures. It is here that God's Spirit will allocate, specifically to you, your own sense of how you are going to work for Him. What is important is that you belong to a great team of true Christians who live for the sake of saving some....for in numbers, your combined skillsets will prove worthy for the Kingdom of God. No one knows everything; no one has all abilities; we must depend on each other.

    Ask for God's Spirit and keep on asking, and God will send His Spirit and open your mind as you have never imagined possible. If it can happen to me, it can happen to anyone, for I was just a sinner when God sent Him to my rescue, saving my very life.

    Ask God! I know you will do it.
     
  13. Thess

    Thess Well-Known Member

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    I actually live with a clear conscious before God, but after some thought, you're absolutely right! And how did you know that I hadn't cleaned that particular mess up? I hadn't even thought of it. Truth is, is that as a paperboy I can't imagine how many things I conveniently stuffed underneath my [rubber-banded] newspapers. I can't imagine how much I stole from that 7-11, for it could have been twenty things...or a hundred. This will be a lot of fun, actually. I'm sure it's going to make everyone laugh that such a small kid could have stolen so much....as we figure out what to do. The previous owners are long gone, but it doesn't matter to me....I'll use it to mention how after feeling the Raw Power of the Almighty, I don't mess around anymore and enjoy cleaning up my past. :) I am blessed with a powerful story that allows me to talk to others without fear....I wished that all had a similar and Powerful experience.
     
  14. Thess

    Thess Well-Known Member

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    Hello again, Oscarr,


    Man, your story demonstrates exactly what I’ve been saying, which is that confidence is not from the Lord. As we take a simple look at the world, any reasonable person can clearly see that this world doesn’t possess much confidence, for if it did, the majority of humans would be living in and by the Spirit of God. God is capable of applying his Holy Rubberstamp of emotions on whomever and whenever He desires, but that Spiritual gift of short-term confidence that one MIGHT receive, is just that, short-term. Otherwise, we are told to change, to make every effort to prepare ourselves for the narrow gate. Paul “sent” Timothy to aid not just with character, but also with individuals and their salvation. We need each other!

    As we discuss witnessing, which true witnessing depends on the deliverance of a True Gospel, can you think of any false teachings (including partial gospels that did not include obedience, for example) that were planted into you that allowed your human spirit to diminish to the point of stepping down? This is somewhat to the heart of my post, which is this….is it your fault that you were not taught all that you would have been taught if you were under the teachings of Christ or Paul? No, it is impossible for the student to know that the “master” is right or wrong. I assure you of this, that you were not given the proper teachings necessary to remain bold, strong and firm. Who were your examples in your personal life to show you of such? Right….probably no one. How many people have anyone in their life that is truly confident by which to model? Exactly. So if none of us have any truly confident people in our lives to model, how in the world can we say that we even know what confidence is? Believe me, sir, there are many before you that have led you astray in your fear. And to those false teachers….well, you remember what I wrote about the millstones and exactly how our Almighty and Powerful God feels about them. God is extremely serious about false teachers, labeling them as those “born to be devoured”. False teachers could very possibly be those that are born for destruction….something to think about (for me, I guess).

    Even though you’re a pastor of nearly two decades, and pardon my saying this for it will indeed sound arrogant, but I know that you have never been taught true, actual confidence. It is a most elusive subject, for if false teachers were to teach true confidence, by default they are forced to teach their flock how to test them, the preachers and teachers of the church. What false teacher wants confident peasants who are testing and examining them as they ought? False teachers, who are totally running today’s Modern-Day Christian Variety System, want their money-giving people to be weak and insecure, so as to fatten the collection plate.

    What’s frightening is that I don’t believe that there are very many false teachers that are intending to be a false teacher. I’ve been to church with young men and women going into the ministry and I know for sure that they had their belief system in proper order. They were wrong. The massive majority of us are all innocently following a system that barely even models the church, clearly understandable should anyone care to read about the actual structure and function of the church. It’s amazing, but the world really is this blind, to think that our churches can be as they are and consider themselves legitimate. Pft….I’ve been intimate with co-leadership in two different churches myself. The church is in trouble and I am contending that we have all been victim of this Goliath of a problem. I am crying out that we would all wake up to this, and realize that we’re just not understanding the true Gospel of Jesus, whom if we have the Holy Faith of Abraham, that if we put that same faith into Jesus, that Jesus will then send the Holy Spirit whom alone grants eternal life and the enabling Power to remain firm, strong, bold and steadfast!

    When we were young, were we taught to ask, and ask, and ask, and keep on asking and keep on asking? I don’t recall being taught anything regarding the Holy Spirit. There were no tests of our wisdom, much less our Holy Understanding of things. There was nothing….no expectations, no real challenges that would case any non-believers with false motives to scatter like flies in a tornado!

    Were we taught true submission? I wasn’t! I had no idea that I had been submitting to humans my entire life, which rendered me to be a complete wimp. It was an awful life! If I am first spirit, and if everyone else is also first spirit, why would I ever submit to anything of equal essence, worth and value? There is neither Greek nor Jew, etc. It makes no sense! But no one taught me this. So how was I supposed to know? And wouldn’t it be fair to say that if no one taught me, that perhaps they didn’t know either? Let’s think about it….nearly EVERYONE we’ve ever gone to church with was and are still amazing people….yet who really understands that we should be free of what others think and only submit to God and what He thinks? Few….I’ve never spoken to a “christian” that understands these things. Paul taught that he doesn’t care about what people think who are under control of Satan Jr. the Sin Nature. Why would Paul care about what the Devil thinks? Foolishness! We should never concern ourselves, or, diminish our spirit or character, particularly our Holy character, over the sake of an emotionally sick person who is living by Satan Jr. Pft….once I figured this out, “fear” all of a sudden became the realized number one greatest tool that Satan can use on our hearts.

    And what about obedience? Now that I’ve completely broken away from man’s commentaries and side notes, I depend 95% or more on God’s Spirit alone to teach me. And what have I found? A completely different Gospel other than the one that I have been taught. I had no idea of how important obedience was, for throughout my entire life I felt that I was saved, but what’s bad is that I thought that I was eternally saved. Why is that bad? If a person isn’t saved, let’s just use me as an example so that no one will be offended….I now know that I wasn’t saved, but I was living in hardcore alcohol consumption (up to 36 cans of Bud in one 24 day), rampant sex with multiple partners in a week, strip clubs, cursing, lusting, preparing relationships with women while I currently had one (just in case), and once even attempted “kidnapping” on an adult man; fortunately he could not be found. I could just go on and on, but through all of this, I truly believed that I was safe and secure in the arms of Jesus. Wow….has God ever spared me!

    If anyone were to take a sober reading of the entire bible, any reasonable, rational individual will conclude that obedience is just as important as it was while under the Law of Moses. Some make the case even more so, I would imagine.

    Here is what we’ve all been missing: most “Christians” do not share the Good News of Jesus, or even other parts of their lives with others is because they are afraid. And why wouldn’t we be afraid? How many people can honestly say that they really, truly believe that they understand the Word of God? Very, very few….I’ve never met one. Without examples in our lives, people like Paul and Timothy and Titus, how and who are we to model ourselves after?

    If we don’t understand submission, and if we don’t understand obedience, and if we don’t understand confidence, it would be obvious to say that our belief system would be completely out of balance.

    I can’t Submit properly if I don’t Believe properly, and I can’t obey and do things rightly if I don’t understand proper submissions, and how can I be confident if I’m not obeying? And how could I ever have the guts to share the Gospel of Jesus if we’re so confused that we hold utterly no confidence? So we can’t share if we aren’t confidence and we can’t be confident if we aren’t obedient to ALL of God’s commands, and we won’t obey if we don’t properly submit and we won’t submit because our belief system has got a kink in it….(always within the belief set).

    So as for my question, does this sound familiar to your heart and soul? Do you feel that your forefathers left out these necessary, just absolutely have to have understandings from you….innocently? I don’t see how this cannot be the case. The team is as good as the coaching staff, so it seems to me that God will be distributing responsibility amongst many.

    I am so sorry that you were terribly treated by a co-elder. I wished that I had been there….I would have been a brick wall, upholding the Word of God with my life. This man would have been a fun challenge for sure. And I wish that your church members were holding themselves more closely to the truth, for if they were strong, firm and bold, they, as pure Brothers, would have stood for the truth. If I am the Brother of Jesus, then we are all certainly Holy Brothers and Sisters in Jesus….they were to stand with you as one body! I am saddened, and have even had moments of anger for the sorrow that you’ve endured….it isn’t right. We cannot live in fear of what others might think or do, when we live in fear, a Brother or Sister suffers and that’s all there is to it. You, for example, were forced to suffer because of a flock that was too frightened to defend you, taking your Holy side as Pastor.

    Then again, Oscarr, God is capable of hardening hearts….and as many as He desires. Perhaps you are right where you are supposed to be, eh?

    I appreciate your sharing your tremendous story that many would be ashamed to share….I respect you tremendously! You are a man of strength, for anyone to admit weakness….that is strength and there are few that I’ve met that are as honest as yourself.

    I believe in you….
     
  15. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Ship of Fools Supporter

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    Why do I need door to door religious salesmen to enlighten me? I'm perfectly intelligent human being and if I have questions I can ask ministers or priests. Going door to door to try to persuade me my religious beliefs are wrong, is an insult to my intelligence and my capacities as a human being. I'm sure many other people feel the same way.
     
  16. GingerBeer

    GingerBeer Cool and refreshing with a kick!

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    You have not asked already.

    My procedure is to talk to people I do not know on shopping centre benches, cafe tables, out in the streets and if they are curious about Christianity I talk to them about Jesus if not then we chat about something else but sometimes the something else leads to Jesus.

    When people are interested then I spend time leading them through core Christian teachings.

    If they continue in their interest I spend time on whatever religious issues they want to know about and I do not hesitate to take them to church and to help them with any questions arising from church.

    Now, why did you ask?
     
  17. Thess

    Thess Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate being tested. It proves that I listen to others; it proves that I am only interested in the truth; it proves that the one testing me actually loves me. I prefer the Biblical way....it's rational.
     
  18. Thess

    Thess Well-Known Member

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    Man, you covered it all, right down to the Spiritual side of things. Not many understand the necessity of the Holy Spirit. All points of your statement are met and conquered through and by the Holy Spirit. This is the Mysterious Plan. Great job!
     
  19. Thess

    Thess Well-Known Member

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    Good advice. I had to decide that I needed to master the art of not being offended. Practice, practice, practice and having an intense relationship with God doesn't hurt either.
     
  20. Thess

    Thess Well-Known Member

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    I hear you, and I don't want you to be frustrated....that won't help you or anyone else. Part of my problem is that I don't quite understand how to use the quite system, here. And my memory isn't what it once was. The way you are able to select different sections of my message would be helpful for me....just need to put a crowbar into my timebank and pry it open.

    I honestly meant what I said when I wasn't trying to be rude. I just need you to believe me. I love all people, desperately, so I don't intend to turn anyone away unless I have to. But I was serious, in that I didn't think that my words are all that difficult to understand on the surface, it's the deeper meaning that I began discussing with the Pastor. This issue is that our effectiveness is what it is because of poor teaching that comes from poor leadership....across the board. And while I am blaming, I am also not blaming.

    My father beat me in front of an open row of about 8 houses....half naked. My complete lower half fully exposed in the middle of the day. My father was growing God's Marijuana in my bedroom closet and drinking like a fish while smoking....yet I was the problem. Sure. I have no idea of what insignificant thing I had done that day, but my father felt the need to blaze my tender skin with a man's man kind of belt. My father nearly had his throat slit that night after he'd fallen asleep.

    Obviously, I hated that man for humiliating me like that....age 14. But that's when I thought like a child. I grew up and have since learned that while my father is responsible for embittering his son, to the very least, I also forgive this man, rather easily, because I know that he was bred by his father, my grandfather, to treat me exactly as he did. And of course, I followed suit with my step-children. I once spanked my 11 year old because he did set his alarm clock and was nearly late for school. I sent him to school in shock, as he was in a deep sleep, stumbling down the stairs as I emotionlessly beat his butt as he tried to manage the staircase wit h a pack on his back. I was a human travesty.

    I did what my father taught me to do and my father did was his father taught him to do. I just want to stop the cycle. So while my father is responsible for what he's done, I can also look him square in the face and tell him that it isn't his fault. I like that approach a lot, and it has served me well. It makes like easy, finding a way to squash every circumstance with equality. We're all guilty....we just need to be nice to each other.

    Also, I have all the time in the world to explain my posts to people....that's why I am here, not to dictate, but to participate with others that want to participate with an eager heart to learn and to teach. When people lunge at me in an attacking way, particularly when in this case the only people that should have been upset were teachers, I simply am too busy to share my time with someone that I can tell won't even consider what I'm saying / writing. I"m not perfect, I make mistakes and misread people, but hang in here with me and you'll see that when I am wrong, I won't run and hide.

    If you're kind and gentle, I'll lay down my life for you, your friends and your family....as all will whom possess the Holy Spirit.

    I"m glad that you're not angry. I'm able to repay for any harm I've done with interest....let me know. :)
     
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