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Why don't christians trust the biblical timeline?

SaphireOwl

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What's to be said of those scholars, like Bart Ehrman, who says that because we don't even have copies of the copies of the copies of the autographs, that it is impossible to know the true inspired word of God.

And that scribes would often change words when transcribing an ancient text due to their lack of understanding the meaning, or the context. Or they'd change text or omit text when transcribing from one language to the next.

His thought being, how can we know the bible is the true unaltered word of God when we don't have the autographs that would be the words of God.

I'd not heard that argument before until a friend loaned me their audiobook copy of Bart Ehrman's work; Misquoting Jesus.
 
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Calminian

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What's to be said of those scholars, like Bart Ehrman, who says that because we don't even have copies of the copies of the copies of the autographs, that it is impossible to know the true inspired word of God.

And that scribes would often change words when transcribing an ancient text due to their lack of understanding the meaning, or the context. Or they'd change text or omit text when transcribing from one language to the next.

His thought being, how can we know the bible is the true unaltered word of God when we don't have the autographs that would be the words of God.

I'd not heard that argument before until a friend loaned me their audiobook copy of Bart Ehrman's work; Misquoting Jesus.

My suggestion would be research it. Search. A good short starter article on this subject is article by Ron Rhodes.

Manuscript Evidence for the Bible's Reliability

We don't have the original manuscripts for practically any historical document, but what we do have is a ton corroborating manuscript evidence for the Bible, and this evidence is superior to any other ancient document in the world. In fact, we can recreate the N.T. just from quotes from the early fathers and it would form a N.T. that's virtually identical to the one we have today.

Regarding the O.T. we have the Dead Sea Scrolls, which corroborate the superior transmission of the hebrew bible. Also you should look a little into the transmission traditions of the ancient hebrew scribes.

Check out the article, first and then from there, there are some very good resources I can point you to, if indeed you are a seeker.
 
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Yekcidmij

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So is this why you're skeptical of the Genesis account, because there are discrepancies between manuscripts?

The differences lead me to believe that the original intent of the author is something other than presenting a literal timeline of humanity's existence. I think there's something else going on. I'm also skeptical that the chronology in the MT is (a) the original and (b) to be interpreted as a literal timeline of earth's history.

Do you believe the O.T. should be base on the Septuagint?

Not necessarily. It's not an all or nothing type of issue though. It depends on the passage in question. When there are differences between the LXX and MT, sometimes the LXX should be preferred over the MT while other time it's the other way around.

Regarding the O.T. we have the Dead Sea Scrolls, which corroborate the superior transmission of the hebrew bible

Sometime the DSS corroborate the superiority of the LXX over the MT. Basically, it appears that the translators of the LXX were pretty diligent in their translation of the Hebrew Bible into Greek and the MT scribes were also diligent in their copying the Hebrew Bible into what is now the MT. The problem we probably have is that roughly during the Second Temple timeframe there existed more than one authoritative version of the Hebrew Bible.
 
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SkyWriting

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What's to be said of those scholars, like Bart Ehrman, who says that because we don't even have copies of the copies of the copies of the autographs, that it is impossible to know the true inspired word of God. And that scribes would often change words when transcribing an ancient text due to their lack of understanding the meaning, or the context. Or they'd change text or omit text when transcribing from one language to the next. His thought being, how can we know the bible is the true unaltered word of God when we don't have the autographs that would be the words of God. I'd not heard that argument before until a friend loaned me their audiobook copy of Bart Ehrman's work; Misquoting Jesus.


The answer being that scribes were not idiots. That had a reputation even more fragile than modern authors. Every learned person who read them would check translations against the sources. The literacy situation wasn't like today only with Wikipedia in charge of copying and translating holy text. People who read scripture were serious scholars. (They knew how to read, a big deal in those days.)

A second counter to such arguments is the "proof" of such mistakes found in the various manuscripts that we do have. Experts on manuscripts (there are 50,000+ original handwritten manuscripts of the Bible) can mathematically calculate the error rate of the manuscripts over time. The total number of errors or mistakes found is a fraction of 1% and none of the discrepancies put any aspect of christian thought into dispute.

Bart Ehrman has concluded that the disciples were all convinced of the resurrection. Jesus would have to have been a pretty clever trickster to have pulled that off and no one has turned up any magician training in his background. And He did have contemporary critics.
 
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SkyWriting

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The differences lead me to believe that the original intent of the author is something other than presenting a literal timeline of humanity's existence. I think there's something else going on. I'm also skeptical that the chronology in the MT is (a) the original and (b) to be interpreted as a literal timeline of earth's history.

For good reason. I don't feel the intention was to document a literal timeline.
It's not healthy for science to play at history either. It can be done.
It's just not healthy because no one can re-witness past events.
That's why we call it Our Faith.
 
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SaphireOwl

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Thank you for the link. I am a seeker. My current interest is exegesis.

My suggestion would be research it. Search. A good short starter article on this subject is article by Ron Rhodes.

Manuscript Evidence for the Bible's Reliability

We don't have the original manuscripts for practically any historical document, but what we do have is a ton corroborating manuscript evidence for the Bible, and this evidence is superior to any other ancient document in the world. In fact, we can recreate the N.T. just from quotes from the early fathers and it would form a N.T. that's virtually identical to the one we have today.

Regarding the O.T. we have the Dead Sea Scrolls, which corroborate the superior transmission of the hebrew bible. Also you should look a little into the transmission traditions of the ancient hebrew scribes.

Check out the article, first and then from there, there are some very good resources I can point you to, if indeed you are a seeker.
 
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SaphireOwl

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Thank you. I have heard Bart Ehrman has his critics among bible scholars. I would love to be able to read the materials that reiterate scholars findings that refute his many claims.

He has compared scriptures refuting one another, for instance as pertains to the order of events at the cross, and other things. And to the point that in his long history of garnering an extensive education in his field has moved from being an evangelical to an agnostic.

That is pretty shocking when he remains a highly regarded scholar at a religious institution.

Thank you again. :)

The answer being that scribes were not idiots. That had a reputation even more fragile than modern authors. Every learned person who read them would check translations against the sources. The literacy situation wasn't like today only with Wikipedia in charge of copying and translating holy text. People who read scripture were serious scholars. (They knew how to read, a big deal in those days.)

A second counter to such arguments is the "proof" of such mistakes found in the various manuscripts that we do have. Experts on manuscripts (there are 50,000+ original handwritten manuscripts of the Bible) can mathematically calculate the error rate of the manuscripts over time. The total number of errors or mistakes found is a fraction of 1% and none of the discrepancies put any aspect of christian thought into dispute.

Bart Ehrman has concluded that the disciples were all convinced of the resurrection. Jesus would have to have been a pretty clever trickster to have pulled that off and no one has turned up any magician training in his background. And He did have contemporary critics.
 
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Calminian

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The differences lead me to believe that the original intent of the author is something other than presenting a literal timeline of humanity's existence. I think there's something else going on. I'm also skeptical that the chronology in the MT is (a) the original and (b) to be interpreted as a literal timeline of earth's history.



Not necessarily. It's not an all or nothing type of issue though. It depends on the passage in question. When there are differences between the LXX and MT, sometimes the LXX should be preferred over the MT while other time it's the other way around.



Sometime the DSS corroborate the superiority of the LXX over the MT. Basically, it appears that the translators of the LXX were pretty diligent in their translation of the Hebrew Bible into Greek and the MT scribes were also diligent in their copying the Hebrew Bible into what is now the MT. The problem we probably have is that roughly during the Second Temple timeframe there existed more than one authoritative version of the Hebrew Bible.

But I still don't understand why a transmission issue has you doubting the intent of the author? How does that argument come together. If timelines were part of the original writings, and then some scribe made a mistake thousands of years later and some copies got corrupted, how does this make you doubt the original author's intent?

There is a lot of agreement between the LXX and MT. Both record chronological genealogies that state the father's age at the time of the son's birth. All manuscripts agree there. The differing numbers may give us reason to question the timeline within a few hundred years, but nothing beyond that.

But the idea that one scribe made a mistake some ages later, therefore we're going to turn the book of Genesis into a metaphor? How could this possibly make sense to you?
 
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Calminian

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Thank you for the link. I am a seeker. My current interest is exegesis.

Well that's probably going to lead you to all the differing documentary hypotheses that have been out there the last few centuries, JEDP, etc. These have been refuted time and time again, but they're still very popular among Bible skeptics.

If you come across anything interesting and seemingly perplexing please share. I'd like to offer the appropriate rebuttals. Also check out the Tablet Theory when you get a chance. The Origins of Genesis: Solving the Toledoth Mystery
 
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Yekcidmij

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But I still don't understand why a transmission issue has you doubting the intent of the author?

The transmission doesn't have me doubting the author's intent; I think it clarifies how we should understand his intent.

How does that argument come together. If timelines were part of the original writings, and then some scribe made a mistake thousands of years later and some copies got corrupted, how does this make you doubt the original author's intent?

I don't think this was a scribal mistake. A mistake implies that it wasn't done on purpose and with intent. I think the differences were done on purpose.

There is a lot of agreement between the LXX and MT. Both record chronological genealogies that state the father's age at the time of the son's birth. All manuscripts agree there. The differing numbers may give us reason to question the timeline within a few hundred years, but nothing beyond that.

The chronology in the MT, LXX and SP differ by several thousand years, not several hundred. The difference is not insignificant. It's not a copyist sort of error; the differences seem to be systematic. There is something else going on besides a simple mistake or two by some scribes.

But the idea that one scribe made a mistake some ages later, therefore we're going to turn the book of Genesis into a metaphor? How could this possibly make sense to you?

I don't think the genealogies are best classified as metaphor. They are probably best classified as Ancient Near Eastern Genealogies. ANE Genealogies weren't usually reporting bland facts for the sake of reporting facts. Genealogies were often used to justify something or provide meaning and significance to important events. The Sumerian King list is a good example where the list isn't just giving the reader some dates; rather it's trying to justify a particular ruler/dynasty in the list. Genealogies were used to establish ancestors, which was important for things like land claims, kingship, dynasties, wealth, prestige, etc.. Israel's genealogies weren't all that different except they were used to emphasize the importance of God with His people; so important events like the Exodus, the Temples, etc.. happen on significant dates. In this way, Israel's claims to land and election by God are emphasized by the use of a schematized genealogy.

For example, in the MT, the Exodus occurs 2/3rd's of the way through a 4000 year era. The year 3999 of this chronology just coincidentally happens to be the year the Maccabees re-dedicate the Temple. The implication seems to be that the Maccabees re-dedication of the Temple corresponds to the Exodus as it begins a new era/new Exodus in the year 4000.

It's also the case in the MT that the time from the entry into Egypt to the Exodus is 430 years. The time from the Exodus to the 1st Temple is 480 years. But if we allow 40 years from the wilderness wanders and 10 years for the conquest, then it's 430 years from the time Israel takes Canaan to the 1st Temple. It's also 430 years from the 1st Temple foundation to it's destruction. It's seems obviously highly schematic that the MT divides Israel's history into 430 year periods. There seems to be clear emphasis on the Exodus, 1st Temple, and 2nd Temple.

This doesn't seem surprising or anything. The LXX and SP do the same sort of thing with the significant events in Israel's history except their chronologies are different. It seems clear that the the genealogies should not be read as literal if we are trying to get the author's intent. Rather, they should be read in the context of ANE Genealogies where the theologically significant events in the history of Israel are emphasized by using a highly schematic chronology. The purpose is probably to lay claim to Israel's election by God and land grant by God.
 
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Calminian

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The transmission doesn't have me doubting the author's intent; I think it clarifies how we should understand his intent.



I don't think this was a scribal mistake. A mistake implies that it wasn't done on purpose and with intent. I think the differences were done on purpose.

Okay, take for instance Adam's age at Seth's birth. The MT has it at 130, the LXX at 230. Certainly you would agree only one can be right. I hope you would anyway. But either way, your off by 100s, and at best you can add maybe 1000 years to the earth, but this is hardly significant considering you need billions of years to harmonize everything with science. That is insignificant in regard to the young earth debate.


The chronology in the MT, LXX and SP differ by several thousand years, not several hundred. The difference is not insignificant. It's not a copyist sort of error; the differences seem to be systematic. There is something else going on besides a simple mistake or two by some scribes.

What might that be?

This doesn't seem surprising or anything. The LXX and SP do the same sort of thing with the significant events in Israel's history except their chronologies are different. It seems clear that the the genealogies should not be read as literal if we are trying to get the author's intent. Rather, they should be read in the context of ANE Genealogies where the theologically significant events in the history of Israel are emphasized by using a highly schematic chronology. The purpose is probably to lay claim to Israel's election by God and land grant by God.

You call them ANE genealogies, but if we believe the text, Naoh's genealogy is antediluvian and predates ANE culture. In fact I would argue that forcing Genesis into an ANE culture framework is just fallacious as forcing it into a modern scientific framework.

The real first step in proper hermeneutics is faith. Do you believe Genesis? If you did, you'd see some of its narratives are pre-ANE.

Also, it is true that many genealogies do not include chronological data, and many have gaps. Thee are different kinds of Genealogies in the Bible that serve different purposes. But we also have chronological genealogies which have specific chronological data, and they have it for a reason. If not for giving us the ability to count years, than what? Why else included the father's age at the sons birth?
 
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SkyWriting

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He has compared scriptures refuting one another, for instance as pertains to the order of events at the cross, and other things.

ANY one who points to "the order of events at the cross" is not considering how people recall events. Yikes!
 
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SkyWriting

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If not for giving us the ability to count years, than what? Why else included the father's age at the sons birth?

Let us just assume the writer was not thinking of you
and pick any other reason as a possibility.
Unless you can show support for the idea that
the writers of those times were mindful of your
desire to keep track of stuff. For what reason
i dunno.
 
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Yekcidmij

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Okay, take for instance Adam's age at Seth's birth. The MT has it at 130, the LXX at 230. Certainly you would agree only one can be right. I hope you would anyway. But either way, your off by 100s, and at best you can add maybe 1000 years to the earth, but this is hardly significant considering you need billions of years to harmonize everything with science. That is insignificant in regard to the young earth debate.

I guess you could consider it insignificant that the timelines are all off by several thousand years. I guess I would ask why this is insignificant.

What might that be?

I refer to all my previous posts.

You call them ANE genealogies, but if we believe the text, Naoh's genealogy is antediluvian and predates ANE culture. In fact I would argue that forcing Genesis into an ANE culture framework is just fallacious as forcing it into a modern scientific framework.

I don't see why the genealogies should be thought of as being written in an antediluvian world. What reason do you have for believing this?

The real first step in proper hermeneutics is faith. Do you believe Genesis? If you did, you'd see some of its narratives are pre-ANE.

So how does faith help in understanding the meaning of a text? It seems the text means whatever it does regardless of my level of faith.

BTW, I do believe Genesis; I just think it should be understood as intended by the author(s).
 
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lesliedellow

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Sometimes I laugh, but most of the time am just amazed and disappointed what some christians (even preachers apparently) will trust over the Bible.

The Bible is not the only source of information available to us, and you can't just stick your head in the sand, and pretend that everything else isn't there.
 
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Calminian

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I guess you could consider it insignificant that the timelines are all off by several thousand years. I guess I would ask why this is insignificant.

It's insignificant because it doesn't affect the doctrine of death following sin. According to naturalistic theories of deep time, death and time are interlinked. In biblical theology, death and sin are interlinked. Adam set death and suffering in motion. But if your theory is correct, that Adam came on the scene millions of years after the Creation, then death and suffering preceded sin. Death and suffering in your view, were part of the original design and should be considered "very good." This includes things like cancer, and cannibalism which are all found in the fossil record supposedly predating Adam. But the Bible does not speak of death this way. Death is the great enemy for Bible believers.

Now if the genealogies are off by a few hundred years, no biggie. You still have the six day creation week where everything was made together (men, animals, plants). There are no prehistoric animals or men, and things like predation among animals and disease and suffering are still postlapsarian events. You still have original sin and the impact of the Fall in tact. You could even be off by 10,000 years based on huge gaps in the genealogies (which I don't think are justified), and still not have an issue of death preceding sin.

This is what you're actually embracing.
death-before-sin-day6.jpg


I don't see why the genealogies should be thought of as being written in an antediluvian world. What reason do you have for believing this?

Mainly because the earliest portions of Genesis claim to be written. In Genesis chapter 5 we see "the book of the generations of Adam." Literally from the hebrew: "This [is] the book of the account of Adam." And you have several toledoth statements in Genesis after this.

We also know that writing was extant even during Abraham's time on earth, in fact many of the earliest tablets discovered contain accounts and mythologies about the Flood.

Plus we have the textual evidence that Adam and the other antediluvians lived 900+ years and were given the gift of language. By every account, they appear genetically superior to us, and yet we can't believe they could come up with a writing system? That's not going to be a problem for someone believing in the text.

So how does faith help in understanding the meaning of a text? It seems the text means whatever it does regardless of my level of faith.

Oh the text means what it means. It's not the text's fault if you engage in eisegesis—specifically trying to find ways to harmonize the text with modern naturalistic theories.
 
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Yekcidmij

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It's not the text's fault if you engage in eisegesis—specifically trying to find ways to harmonize the text with modern naturalistic theories.

Is that what I'm doing? I don't recall bringing up anything about evolution.

And how exactly am I committing eisegesis?
 
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Calminian

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Is that what I'm doing? I don't recall bringing up anything about evolution.

And how exactly am I committing eisegesis?

Well do you know what eisegesis is? I thought the case I made above was pretty sound. I mean I even supplied a cartoon to illustrate it, and it had nothing to do with evolution per se. It's all about the days of creation, and the order of sin and death. Do you see it?
 
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