Why don't Christians like to talk about the basis of their belief?

[FundiMentalist]

Not all Christians think that God speaks to them...that's mostly a Charismatic-Pentecostalish thing.

vs.

The Holy Spirit formed within me a conviction of the Bible being the Truth, and also formed within me the conviction that he [The Holy Spirit] was the one who formed the conviction within me.

What exactly is the difference and why are they, as Pentecostals and Charismatics wrong, and you right?

 

[FundiMentalist]

Good dialogue. I'm trying to stay caught up.

I'm quite willing to go into why I believe what I believe as a Christian - just not with someone I doubt really wants to know. You come across as someone who has already found his answers, not as one who is still looking.

I most definitely don't have it all figured out. It is a journey and a search.

You never did provide a good response to Mike's challenge to you on this point.

I'm quite limited, per the forum rules, in engaging in this dialogue without it be considered "debate."

Anyhow, Mike was basically saying I was never "born again." I believe I had mentioned that the usage of that term was not universal across self-professing Christians.

So the thing is, without getting into too much detail, that there's the problem of what's called the "No True Scotsman" logical fallacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

You may have read the Bible - you just don't seem to have much spiritual understanding of it.

Exactly. How exactly is a "spiritual" "understanding" different from a "superstitious" "understanding?"

Also, which hermeneutical principles map to a "spiritual" understanding?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_hermeneutics

I think your motives aren't necessarily what they are declared to be.

That's your call.

IAs the Bible directs, these things cannot be divorced from a commitment to upholding the truths of the Word of God. No matter how compassionate we may want to be, if you declare something we believe to be untrue, we must contend with you about it.

You say you are to contend with me?

Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom. ~ Proverbs 13:10

Or is it that you must answer why you believe what you believe?

But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, ~ 1 Peter 3:15

(This really is the verse of my OP. I think the conversation I'm asking for is a required activity for Christians and wonder if to not have a response or to not respond is actually "sin" per this verse. Just wondering.)

Why shouldn't you expect really good answers here? Well, you should. But the best answers will be found in the books of the Christian apologetic authors you've said you've read. I ask again: Why are you looking here for the answers you could find in the writings of these scholarly and godly men? Could it be that you aren't actually here merely to find answers?

Good question. I think it was more a matter of wanting to check here. I assume the folks here are of purist, simple motivations. I know you aren't achieving financial gain by being here.

I have emailed a number of the apologetics authors I have read. One of them got back with me here a few weeks ago and we have exchanged emails as well as had a few good phone conversations. I offered to do a markup review of an early draft of his next book. I hope he takes me up on it.

Peace to you.

And also with you.

 

[FundiMentalist]

Performance anxiety.

Ha! Nice armchair diagnosis!

Actually I think there's a whole lot of truth to what you're saying.

But a few things about that.

First is this odd thing about language. Often for any given thing there's a positive way of wording it and a negative. It's good to be "flexible," but bad to be "wishy-washy." It's good to be "persistent," but bad to be "over bearing." It's good to be "confident," bad to be "arrogant."

Often the only difference is in perspective. But I suppose it's important for a thinking mind to figure it out for themselves.

Anyhow, whether or not it was "performance anxiety" or "pursuit of holiness" that was a contributing factor, I wonder the difference.

Second, I wonder how much of the "performance anxiety" stems from reading of the bible.

Mat 5:48 You must be perfect---just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

I mean, take it at face value.

Third, what Christian doesn't have "performance anxiety."

The bible is chalk full of "promises." I'm sure you're aware of plenty of them. Often these are the kind of inspirational verses that appear on the local Christian bookstore kitsch.

Then there's the big issue of prayer.

What Christian doesn't struggle with why this or that prayer isn't answered? Why God doesn't hear them? Why they don't hear God? Why God doesn't always feel near? Just look around the posts on this site.

"Lord, keep my faith strong."

I guess that's the point. It's always directed back on the believer. It has to be.

Need to pray more.
Need to believe more.
Need to be holier.
Need to read the bible more.

The inadequacy is always deflected away from that which is believed (can't ever question that) back to the believer and the believer's inadequacies.

I think you're right I had performance anxiety, but really who doesn't. What are the alternatives? To question the promises of God? To question God? To question whether or not one has the right concept of God?

Finally, I guess that's what I did. At some point, I think I stopped questioning self so much and simply said to myself, well then, maybe it's not about me, and maybe I need to understand why I believe what I believe.

So I guess I think amounts of performance anxiety over time didn't necessarily cause my deconversion, but caused my search and questioning and then it was the reading, research, analysis, and contemplation of that quest which resulted in my deconversion.

I hope this helps you understand kinda where I'm at.

Thanks.

 

[cerette]

vs.



What exactly is the difference and why are they, as Pentecostals and Charismatics wrong, and you right?

The difference is that many Charismatics/Pentecostals say that they either hear an actual voice [God's] or just know that God 'spoke' to them, but I would not claim that. I believe that the Holy Spirit formed a conviction in my heart (not the body part) without God actively speaking to me, with or without a voice.
The Bible does not make any promises to us that God will speak to us on a one-to-one level.

 

[FundiMentalist]

Adstar, analogies are not necessarily effective at convincing people of things.

Here's your story...

Its like a person caught in a rip and washed out to sea who knows how to swim and believes that they can struggle and fight the current to make it back to shore, they struggle and fight until exhaustion takes it’s toll and they are swallowed up by the depths. They don’t believe in being saved they believe in working to save themselves. Another simply raises their hand and the lifesaver comes to their rescue. One trusts in themselves while the other trusts in the lifesaver.

Let me try my own parable.

There were four fishermen who went out to sea. Two, concerned with the risks of seafaring learned how to swim. Two didn't.

One night the storms came and tossed their boat to and from on the waves. The storm raged and the boat began to sink. All four had to swim for shore.

One man, knowing how to swim, called out to God as his lifesaver, "Save me!" and successfully swam to shore telling all of his testimony.

A second, knowing how to swim, simply swam to shore.

The third man, not knowing how to swim, called out to God, "Save me!," struggled for his life, and sank hoping his soul would be with God for eternity.

The fourth man, not knowing how to swim, struggled for his life, and simply sank.

All the believers in the fishermen's community heard the first man's story and were strengthened in their faith. Our God is an Awsome God.

I suppose my story is only moderately interesting. But it is just that. It evidences nothing other than my mediocre creativity. We could come up with countless variations.

In logic, I've heard this referred to as a "false analogy."

Anyhow, it makes it hard to listen to sermons sometimes. People get excited and love this stuff.

And I'm sitting there in the pew thinking, "what's that evidence."

Anyhow, I hope this helps understand where I'm coming from.

Thanks!

(Can we get back to the OP.)

 

[FundiMentalist]

The difference is that many Charismatics/Pentecostals say that they either hear an actual voice [God's] or just know that God 'spoke' to them, but I would not claim that. I believe that the Holy Spirit formed a conviction in my heart (not the body part) without God actively speaking to me, with or without a voice.
The Bible does not make any promises to us that God will speak to us on a one-to-one level.

So does God speak aloud to people?

Personally I would find that more convincing and in line with biblical examples like talking donkeys and the voice Saul heard on the road to Damascus. What's really cool about the road to Damascus incident is somebody else heard it too.

The direct-to-brain, undetectable mode of communications make's it much harder to rule out the imaginary.

But with a "d'ya hear that too?" confirmation from another, that's powerful. A bit like the independent confirmation of the Book of Mormon Witnesses for example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon_witnesses

Do you think God speaks to people aloud?

 

[cerette]

So does God speak aloud to people?

Personally I would find that more convincing and in line with biblical examples like talking donkeys and the voice Saul heard on the road to Damascus. What's really cool about the road to Damascus incident is somebody else heard it too.

The direct-to-brain, undetectable mode of communications make's it much harder to rule out the imaginary.

But with a "d'ya hear that too?" confirmation from another, that's powerful. A bit like the independent confirmation of the Book of Mormon Witnesses for example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon_witnesses

Do you think God speaks to people aloud?

I don't think God speaks to people aloud, but I also don't say that it would be impossible for him to do so, after all he is God and can do anything. But I see no promises in the Bible to support that he would talk to us aloud, or whispering, or anything like that. The way God communicates with me is through the Word and Sacraments.

God communicating to us through his word and sacraments is really cool... We can ask each other "Does your Bible say that too?"

 

[cerette]

Fundi...I am curious.... Do you still believe there is a God or have you lost that belief along with the loss of the christianity you once had?

I don't know if I am allowed to post links on here so I will send you a private message with a couple of links, ok..

 

[FundiMentalist]

Fundi...I am curious.... Do you still believe there is a God or have you lost that belief along with the loss of the christianity you once had?

Agnostic to the first question and atheistic to the second.

What that means, is I don't know if there is, was, or were one or more creators to this universe of 100 billion or so galaxies and that from what I do know that there is no way of knowning at present.

And...

That the God concept presented in the religious literature of the Judeo-Christian tradition is mythical and superstitious in its nature.

 

[cerette]

Agnostic to the first question and atheistic to the second.

What that means, is I don't know if there is, was, or were one or more creators to this universe of 100 billion or so galaxies and that from what I do know that there is no way of knowning at present.

And...

That the God concept presented in the religious literature of the Judeo-Christian tradition is mythical and superstitious in its nature.

Ok thanks for the reply

 

[FundiMentalist]

Ok thanks for the reply

BTW, but despite this, I value many Christian values and want to live a Christ-like life.

Note: I also want to be a bit "Pollyannaish" (meaning highly, perhaps excessively optimistic), but that doesn't mean I believe the heroine in the Eleanor H. Porter novel was "real."

Furthermore, I don't think being "jovial" (meaning of good cheer, coming from "Jove," coming from the Latin "Jupiter") "denies Christ."

 

[FundiMentalist]

God communicating to us through his word and sacraments is really cool... We can ask each other "Does your Bible say that too?"

Odd example. Not all self-professing Christians agree on the same bible nor the same list of sacraments. The answer to the "does your Bible say that too?" question is "usually, but not always." From there we'd have to discuss vastly different exegetical methods used by different sects and the interpretations that have both led to and resulted from hermeneutical principles.

Why would God be communicating (either through speaking aloud or in direct-to-mind communications) such different things to different people on such core foundational things?

 

[Lukaris]

Well faith in Christ need not entail trying to solve what seem like supernatural impossibilities but to believe in Him as the only begotten Son of God and as our and your saviour. From here the understanding of being a doer of the word (James 1:22) and being created for good works (Ephesians 2:10) is realized & to be acted upon. Christ never discarded the basics of the 10 commandments to live by and to strive for the Beatitudes is to do his will (but one can never claim themself worthy). Basically he called us to pray (for ourselves & others), fast, and give alms in Matthew 6 within the understanding of the golden rule (Matthew 7:12), the 2 greatest commands (Matthew 22:34-40). While the call to evengelize is given, it must be first prayed for (Matthew 9:37-38). Lastly, not all of us our evengelists since "many are called , but few chosen" (Matthew 20:16). So if you want to live a Christ like life, why not invite Him in to live it with you?

 

[FundiMentalist]

Well faith in Christ need not entail trying to solve what seem like supernatural impossibilities but to believe in Him as the only begotten Son of God and as our and your saviour. From here the understanding of being a doer of the word (James 1:22) and being created for good works (Ephesians 2:10) is realized & to be acted upon. Christ never discarded the basics of the 10 commandments to live by and to strive for the Beatitudes is to do his will (but one can never claim themself worthy). Basically he called us to pray (for ourselves & others), fast, and give alms in Matthew 6 within the understanding of the golden rule (Matthew 7:12), the 2 greatest commands (Matthew 22:34-40). While the call to evengelize is given, it must be first prayed for (Matthew 9:37-38). Lastly, not all of us our evengelists since "many are called , but few chosen" (Matthew 20:16). So if you want to live a Christ like life, why not invite Him in to live it with you?

I've done that. Except for the part of believing "in Him as the only begotten Son of God and as our and your saviour." I only believe that as much as I believe it's consistent with the Orthodox Christian literature and tradition.

I "believe" Jesus is the Son of God in the same way I "believe" Huck Finn is Tom Sawyer's friend. I "pray" much in the same was as I imagine what it would be like to have a conversation with Tom Sawyer.

Can you imagine what it would be like to have a conversation with Jesus?

Can you also have a conversation with Jesus?

How do you differentiate between the two?

I can have a conversation with my dad. I can also imagine having a conversation with my dad. "He" generally "says" the same things in both types conversations but they are very different things.

My mother has passed away. She no longer lives. But she "lives" within my mind. I can only imagine having conservations with her. (BTW, I really like the MercyMe song, I can only imagine.)

I'm consciously aware that "to believe" is completely indifferentiateable from "to make-believe."

Not only can I imagine what it would be like to have a conversation with Huck Finn. I can also imagine what it would be like to have a conversation with Mark Twain about Huck Finn. Amazingly, I can even go so far as to imagine what it would be like to have a conversation with Huck Finn about Mark Twain.

I can have a conversation with man about Jesus.

I can imagine having a conversation with man about Jesus.

I can imagine having a conversation with Jesus about man.

I can not have a conversation with Jesus about man.

Do you understand what I'm trying to explain where I'm at?

Thanks.

 

[KeyStroke]

Not all Christians think that God speaks to them...that's mostly a Charismatic-Pentecostalish thing.

Please read John chapter 10. If Jesus does not speak to you (via the Spirit) you are not led of God. If you are not led by Jesus you are not one of the sheep of the Good Shepherd.

Sheep cannot read, so reading the Bible is not enough. You have to "hear" God in your own spirit.

 

[FundiMentalist]

Please read John chapter 10. If Jesus does not speak to you (via the Spirit) you are not led of God. If you are not led by Jesus you are not one of the sheep of the Good Shepherd.

Sheep cannot read, so reading the Bible is not enough. You have to "hear" God in your own spirit.

I think that was the point of my last post. I can "hear" Huck Finn in my own "spirit" in the same way I can "hear" God in my own "spirit."

I wonder if it is simply that one has to imagine.

I can only imagine
What it will be like
When I walk
By your side

I can only imagine
What my eyes will see
When your face
Is before me
I can only imagine

[Chorus:]
Surrounded by Your glory, what will my heart feel
Will I dance for you Jesus or in awe of you be still
Will I stand in your presence or to my knees will I fall
Will I sing hallelujah, will I be able to speak at all
I can only imagine

I can only imagine
When that day comes
And I find myself
Standing in the Son

I can only imagine
When all I will do
Is forever
Forever worship You
I can only imagine

[Chorus]

I can only imagine [x2]

I can only imagine
When all I will do
Is forever, forever worship you

MercyMe.

Mercy me.

 

[Lukaris]

I've done that. Except for the part of believing "in Him as the only begotten Son of God and as our and your saviour." I only believe that as much as I believe it's consistent with the Orthodox Christian literature and tradition.

I "believe" Jesus is the Son of God in the same way I "believe" Huck Finn is Tom Sawyer's friend. I "pray" much in the same was as I imagine what it would be like to have a conversation with Tom Sawyer.

Can you imagine what it would be like to have a conversation with Jesus?

Can you also have a conversation with Jesus?

How do you differentiate between the two?

I can have a conversation with my dad. I can also imagine having a conversation with my dad. "He" generally "says" the same things in both types conversations but they are very different things.

My mother has passed away. She no longer lives. But she "lives" within my mind. I can only imagine having conservations with her. (BTW, I really like the MercyMe song, I can only imagine.)

I'm consciously aware that "to believe" is completely indifferentiateable from "to make-believe."

Not only can I imagine what it would be like to have a conversation with Huck Finn. I can also imagine what it would be like to have a conversation with Mark Twain about Huck Finn. Amazingly, I can even go so far as to imagine what it would be like to have a conversation with Huck Finn about Mark Twain.

I can have a conversation with man about Jesus.

I can imagine having a conversation with man about Jesus.

I can imagine having a conversation with Jesus about man.

I can not have a conversation with Jesus about man.

Do you understand what I'm trying to explain where I'm at?

Thanks.

Whether Christ chooses to speak to us or not is up to him.Next,the departed still live since (by faith only one knows) per the Gospel "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." (Matthew 22:32). Since the concept of grace while (most importantly) God's gift of forgiveness, is also partaking in his uncreated energy, which is the basis of all creation (the Holy Spirit of life of course). I am sure I speak for everyone here that we are sorry for your disillusionment and that we still have our bad times too and following the Beatitudes bestows sensitivity to man. If the icon of Christ seems plausible to you in trying to live a Christ like life, why not accept Him as your and our saviour? I only ask this in a general Christian sense in the faith King David exclaimed in Psalm 49:15,"But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave, For He shall receive me."

 

[cerette]

BTW, but despite this, I value many Christian values and want to live a Christ-like life.

Note: I also want to be a bit "Pollyannaish" (meaning highly, perhaps excessively optimistic), but that doesn't mean I believe the heroine in the Eleanor H. Porter novel was "real."

Furthermore, I don't think being "jovial" (meaning of good cheer, coming from "Jove," coming from the Latin "Jupiter") "denies Christ."

I woud love to see you dressed like and acting like Pollyanna!!!

 

[cerette]

Odd example. Not all self-professing Christians agree on the same bible nor the same list of sacraments. The answer to the "does your Bible say that too?" question is "usually, but not always." From there we'd have to discuss vastly different exegetical methods used by different sects and the interpretations that have both led to and resulted from hermeneutical principles.

Why would God be communicating (either through speaking aloud or in direct-to-mind communications) such different things to different people on such core foundational things?

God says only one thing, the truth. People often hear what they wanna hear. People don't always listen, they hear a few words and then make up the rest to suit their personal opinion etc etc.

 

[cerette]

Please read John chapter 10. If Jesus does not speak to you (via the Spirit) you are not led of God. If you are not led by Jesus you are not one of the sheep of the Good Shepherd.

Sheep cannot read, so reading the Bible is not enough. You have to "hear" God in your own spirit.

It is true that not all can read. I am sorry if I gave the impression that God uses his Word only as a written text on paper that one must read. What I mean was: The Word of God is "heard" everytime you read your Bible, read a verse from the Bible, listen to a Biblical sermon, quote truths from the Bible and so on.

Please read John 10:1-5. Then note what is said in verse 6. (Jesus used this figure of speech.) Go to verse 14. Again Jesus uses a figure of speech... I mean.. you and I are not sheep, are we? The same way the word 'voice' is used in the context of the figurative language. In order to understand what it means, one has to understand what the whole parable means. [The sheep = the believers, Voice = how God communicates with the believers] How does God communicate with us? Through the Word and Sacraments.