Why don't Christians like to talk about the basis of their belief?

[cerette]

So many good posts. I'll just focus on one for now. Gotta go to the Cub Scout Blue and Gold Banquet here tonight. (Good thing they don't know of my apostasy, they'd have to kick me out per their rules.)



OK. Essentially, you're saying you know the Bible is the Word of God because the Holy Spirit has caused you to see it to be the Truth.

Good stuff. We're getting down "underneath." This feels a bit like the presuppositional apolgist Francis Schaffer's "taking the roof off method."

So I guess a key question here is...

1. That which influenced you, how did you know it was a supernatural source, not just a voice within your own head, essentially your own imagination fueled by your hopes, fears, desires, insecurities, and most profound needs?

2. Since you concluded it was a supernatural source, how did you conclude which it was talking to/influencing you? How did you authenticate that it was the Holy Spirit and not another Christian worldview supernatural entity (such as a demon or incredibly deceiving Satan) or even not a supernatural being from the Old Testament trying to deceive you (say Baal?) or a supernatural entity from another supernaturalistic religion's worldview trying to deceive you?

So basically, how did you conclude it was a supernaturalistic influence not just your imagination? And then how did you conclude it was none other that The Holy Spirit talking directly too you?

Also, what was it like. Was there a voice of Road to Damascus like blinding impact? A voice that was heard not just by you but by others as well, similar to Saul?

I think "testing the spirits is a good thing."

Good questions again!

The Holy Spirit formed within me a conviction of the Bible being the Truth, and also formed within me the conviction that he [The Holy Spirit] was the one who formed the conviction within me.

It is important for me to once again state that I do NOT hear any voices in my head or heart which I interpret to be God. I know this is a common thing in the Charismatic movement, but nowhere in the Bible does God make any promises of speaking to me with a voice in my head.

Hope you will have lots of fun at the banquet tonight!

 

[FundiMentalist]

Good questions again!

The Holy Spirit formed within me a conviction of the Bible being the Truth, and also formed within me the conviction that he [The Holy Spirit] was the one who formed the conviction within me.

It is important for me to once again state that I do NOT hear any voices in my head or heart which I interpret to be God. I know this is a common thing in the Charismatic movement, but nowhere in the Bible does God make any promises of speaking to me with a voice in my head.

Hope you will have lots of fun at the banquet tonight!

Thanks. The banquet went a little long. My son was a little bit disappointed that he was one of only a couple that didn't get all his requirements done in order to get his rank badge. Sometimes I wonder if other parents just sign it without having actually completing all the requirements. Need to get him to the fire station and a TV station then hopefully next pack meeting he can get his Tiger badge.

But I figure it's better he learn the right thing at a young age, the stakes get so much higher later.

Anyhow, I'm going to ask again as I don't yet understand the answer, how did you know it was the Holy Spirit "forming the conviction" in you?

 

[FundiMentalist]

It was like, well, you just realize that there IS God and whatever Jesus Christ said is the truth.

Can't explain it any better.

It is due to an internal evidence, not external.

Ed, how is this materially different from the very intense, personal, transforming, subjective experiences the devout of slightly different to vastly different faith traditions have?

 

[aiki]

It's been about 15 months post-deconversion after 3.5 decades as a born again Christian.

Though I've only revealed my disbelief to a few friends, family members, and clergy members and have tried to do so as factually, honestly, sincerely and calmly as possible, I'm generally only greeted to two responses.

Silence. I mean people just staring at me like I'm an alien or something. Not knowing what to say. Not willing to discuss at all my journey, my discovery, or the foundations of their own faith for that matter. Kinda like when folks don't know what to say to a post here.

Venom. I mean straight out of the Middle Ages inquisition-style, not-so "Christ-like" mean-spirited, "you're going to hell," compassionless spew. When I try to explore their testimony, why it is that they believe what they believe and do so as calmly as possibly, it's like some sort of B-grade horror movie response.

It seems nobody really likes to talk about the basis of their belief. Why they believe what they believe. And how that's fundamentally different from how the devout of numerous other slightly different and vastly different faiths believe what they believe.

So I guess I'll ask any Christian that's brave enough and polite enough to answer, what is the fundamental, epistemological basis of your faith and how's that fundamentally different than how the devout in other faiths believe what they believe?

Thanks.

Might provide me some insight IRL.

It seems to me, after having read through this thread, that what you are really here to do is fortify and justify your position both to yourself and those who either read or actively engage in this thread by attempting to confound the beliefs of those Christians who decide to answer your "question". Like Mike, I do not believe you ever were truly born again. Certainly, what evidence you've given in support of that claim Mike has clearly shown does not succeed in its purpose.

If you have read through the works of men like Ravi Zacharias, Norman Geisler, C.S Lewis and the other prominent Christian apologists you mentioned, and remain unconvinced, why do you come here with your questions? Do you really believe you will receive a more scholarly, more informed, more thoughtful response than what these men have already offered? You're living in a dream world if you do! Judging from your posts, though, I don't think you're that obtuse. It seems highly unlikely to me that you are really in search of answers. If you truly were, you wouldn't be coming here for them.

 

[KeyStroke]

So many good posts. I'll just focus on one for now....

OK. Essentially, you're saying you know the Bible is the Word of God because the Holy Spirit has caused you to see it to be the Truth.

Good stuff. We're getting down "underneath." This feels a bit like the presuppositional apologist Francis Schaffer's "taking the roof off method."

So I guess a key question here is...

1. That which influenced you, how did you know it was a supernatural source, not just a voice within your own head, essentially your own imagination fueled by your hopes, fears, desires, insecurities, and most profound needs?

I know it isn't "me" because the Holy Spirit will disagree with me when needed. I've even had what might be termed as very polite and respectful 'arguments' with God. Of course I always wind up on the wrong side of those arguments, but they still happen.

2. Since you concluded it was a supernatural source, how did you conclude which it was talking to/influencing you? How did you authenticate that it was the Holy Spirit and not another Christian worldview supernatural entity (such as a demon or incredibly deceiving Satan) or even not a supernatural being from the Old Testament trying to deceive you (say Baal?) or a supernatural entity from another super-naturalistic religion's worldview trying to deceive you?

Because of this promise: If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? (Luke 11:11-13 KJV) What that means is that God has enough power and authority in the spiritual realm to make sure that if you ask for the leadership of the Holy Spirit, that God will make sure you aren't given something else.

So basically, how did you conclude it was a super-naturalistic influence not just your imagination? And then how did you conclude it was none other that The Holy Spirit talking directly too you?

You get to know what God "sounds like" by reading the Bible. ("sounds like" is a metaphor, I'll explain more further down) I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. (John 10:14 KJV) also: My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me (John 10:27 KJV) Just as I got to know the voice of my wife, I got to know the "voice" of God. I can tell it is my wife on the phone without asking for verification. I can tell it is God in my spirit without any external verification also.

Also, what was it like. Was there a voice of Road to Damascus like blinding impact? A voice that was heard not just by you but by others as well, similar to Saul?

I do not hear an audible "voice". We use "hear the word of the Lord" as a metaphor (at least it is that way with me). It is more like imparted knowledge without learning. Kinda like a Vulcan-mind-meld with God. Thoughts come to me fully-formed. I do not 'formulate' these thoughts like I do my own. They are always gentle, kind, not presumptuous, but they are not ambiguous either. They are definite 'leadership'. When we are physically born we are given knowledge without learning (like the ability to suck for nutrition or to cry). Not everything known has to be learned. When we are reborn (born of the Spirit) we, again, are given knowledge we do not learn. This is the promise that the Spirit will lead us into all truth.

I think "testing the spirits is a good thing."

You make reference to a scriptural passage that talks about testing the spirits that express themselves through other people. "Testing the Spirit" when it is God talking to you is not trusting God to fulfill his promise, it is instead a fearful reaction based in doubt. That fear and distrust will cut you off from God and leave you in the situation in which you now find yourself.

 

[Edial]

Ed, how is this materially different from the very intense, personal, transforming, subjective experiences the devout of slightly different to vastly different faith traditions have?

From an outside observation, not much really.

People from all faiths can be transformed or intensely influenced in one direction or another.

The point is who is doing the transformation (or influencing) and in which direction that person is heading in his/her new set of beliefs.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[FundiMentalist]

If you have read through the works of men like Ravi Zacharias, Norman Geisler, C.S Lewis and the other prominent Christian apologists you mentioned, and remain unconvinced, why do you come here with your questions? Do you really believe you will receive a more scholarly, more informed, more thoughtful response than what these men have already offered? You're living in a dream world if you do! Judging from your posts, though, I don't think you're that obtuse. It seems highly unlikely to me that you are really in search of answers. If you truly were, you wouldn't be coming here for them.

I've read Geisler, Lewis, Sproul, Schaeffer, McDowell, Strobel, Habermas, Liconas, Evans, Frame, Bock, Boa, D'Souza, Young, Johnson, Ross, Dembski, Johnson, Behe, Collins, and a few others. Never read a book by Zacharias, only stuff online. My favorites of the list or Francis Schaeffer and Timothy Johnson.

My question in my OP was why Christians don't really like to talk about the basis of their belief. Why they believe, what they believe. And how that is materially different from why the devout of slightly different to vastly different faith traditions believe what they believe.

My question remains.

Why don't Christians like to talk about why they believe what they believe?

 

[FundiMentalist]

I know it isn't "me" because the Holy Spirit will disagree with me when needed. I've even had what might be termed as very polite and respectful 'arguments' with God. Of course I always wind up on the wrong side of those arguments, but they still happen.



Because of this promise: If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? (Luke 11:11-13 KJV) What that means is that God has enough power and authority in the spiritual realm to make sure that if you ask for the leadership of the Holy Spirit, that God will make sure you aren't given something else.



You get to know what God "sounds like" by reading the Bible. ("sounds like" is a metaphor, I'll explain more further down) I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. (John 10:14 KJV) also: My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me (John 10:27 KJV) Just as I got to know the voice of my wife, I got to know the "voice" of God. I can tell it is my wife on the phone without asking for verification. I can tell it is God in my spirit without any external verification also.



I do not hear an audible "voice". We use "hear the word of the Lord" as a metaphor (at least it is that way with me). It is more like imparted knowledge without learning. Kinda like a Vulcan-mind-meld with God. Thoughts come to me fully-formed. I do not 'formulate' these thoughts like I do my own. They are always gentle, kind, not presumptuous, but they are not ambiguous either. They are definite 'leadership'. When we are physically born we are given knowledge without learning (like the ability to suck for nutrition or to cry). Not everything known has to be learned. When we are reborn (born of the Spirit) we, again, are given knowledge we do not learn. This is the promise that the Spirit will lead us into all truth.



You make reference to a scriptural passage that talks about testing the spirits that express themselves through other people. "Testing the Spirit" when it is God talking to you is not trusting God to fulfill his promise, it is instead a fearful reaction based in doubt. That fear and distrust will cut you off from God and leave you in the situation in which you now find yourself.

KeyStroke, why do you believe it is the Holy Spirit talking to you?

 

[FundiMentalist]

From an outside observation, not much really.

People from all faiths can be transformed or intensely influenced in one direction or another.

The point is who is doing the transformation (or influencing) and in which direction that person is heading in his/her new set of beliefs.

Thanks,
Ed

Ed, then why is it believed that it is the absolute truth?

 

[Edial]

I've read Geisler, Lewis, Sproul, Schaeffer, McDowell, Strobel, Habermas, Liconas, Evans, Frame, Bock, Boa, D'Souza, Young, Johnson, Ross, Dembski, Johnson, Behe, Collins, and a few others. Never read a book by Zacharias, only stuff online. My favorites of the list or Francis Schaeffer and Timothy Johnson.

My question in my OP was why Christians don't really like to talk about the basis of their belief. Why they believe, what they believe. And how that is materially different from why the devout of slightly different to vastly different faith traditions believe what they believe.

My question remains.

Why don't Christians like to talk about why they believe what they believe?

Christians talk about their beliefs and why they believe all the time.
Sometimes they do not analyze this with non-Christians because it is a subjective belief, due to it's personal and spiritual nature.

The reason it cannot be "shown" materially is because a Supernatural cannot be measured by Natural tools.
That's the way it is.

However, all the believers agree among themselves as to the cause of salvation and the person of Jesus Christ.
It is a subjective belief, a spiritual matter.

There really is not much more one can say about that.

All the great authors that you listed also cannot share that what they have, because, well, it is subjective.
One must repent, come to Christ and accept unconditionally His authority and love even if one does not fully understand all that Christ spoke.
I cannot really explain it better than that.

All the great authors that you listed are just "street signs" that point to Jesus.

So are we, although we are not as eloquent as they are.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Edial]

Dear FundiMentalist,

it appears that all of your questions have been answered.
It also appears that your follow up questions were also clarified to the best of our abilities.

Since you have read so many Christian authors, it further appears you might already have your answers, once you reflect on these readings and this thread.

If you wish to ask other questions you are free to open another thread.
However, the mods will be aware that your knowledge concerning Christianity (as far as reading about it) is vast.

If you have further questions, please do not hesitate and PM me.

Thanks,
Edial

 

[Edial]

Ed, then why is it believed that it is the absolute truth?

Because we believe Christ when he said that He is the Truth.

That is why we are called Christians. We follow Christ.

This really is the most basic understanding of Christianity.

If one does not believe Christ one is not a Christian, if one does one is.

You know all that.
I am certain if you reflect on this you'll agree.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[KeyStroke]

KeyStroke, why do you believe it is the Holy Spirit talking to you?

That is already answered in the post you just quoted.

 

[cerette]

Thanks. The banquet went a little long. My son was a little bit disappointed that he was one of only a couple that didn't get all his requirements done in order to get his rank badge. Sometimes I wonder if other parents just sign it without having actually completing all the requirements. Need to get him to the fire station and a TV station then hopefully next pack meeting he can get his Tiger badge.

But I figure it's better he learn the right thing at a young age, the stakes get so much higher later.

Anyhow, I'm going to ask again as I don't yet understand the answer, how did you know it was the Holy Spirit "forming the conviction" in you?

The Holy Spirit made me know it was him.
It was not a huge light bulb moment, it was just a "having the conviction" thing.

Yes, it's better to learn it correctly from the very start... about your son that is. But I suppose this goes for Christian doctrine as well!!!

 

[aiki]

I've read Geisler, Lewis, Sproul, Schaeffer, McDowell, Strobel, Habermas, Liconas, Evans, Frame, Bock, Boa, D'Souza, Young, Johnson, Ross, Dembski, Johnson, Behe, Collins, and a few others. Never read a book by Zacharias, only stuff online. My favorites of the list or Francis Schaeffer and Timothy Johnson.

My question in my OP was why Christians don't really like to talk about the basis of their belief. Why they believe, what they believe. And how that is materially different from why the devout of slightly different to vastly different faith traditions believe what they believe.

My question remains.

Why don't Christians like to talk about why they believe what they believe?

As your long list of authors indicates, Christians do like to talk (and write) about why they believe what they believe. In this thread, however, when a Christian has attempted to answer your OP you have used their responses to insinuate that they are circular in their reasoning, or thinking in a cloud of fallacies, or have nothing better to offer as a Christian than any Hindu or Mormon, or whatever. You have not seemed the least open to what has been said by Christians, except when what is said appears in some measure to defer to your thinking.

If there is some reticence on the part of the average Christian to wade into a debate with an obviously fully-armed atheist looking for a fight, it is because they know that better answers than they may give can be found in the works of the authors you've mentioned. If you have considered the answers of these men for the Christian faith and rejected them, what more could a Christian who doesn't specialize in apologetics, who hasn't endured years of study and training to be able to give an answer, offer you? As well, I think the average Christian is just not as driven to justify their relationship with Christ as you are to discredit it.

 

[salida]

Well intended but "ugh". These are the facts - if you don't like answer I wouldn't ask the question. The ball is in your hands on what you do with the answers and information we all gave you. We arn't here to answer the questions to "what you want to hear". This is how it is - again, if you don't like the answer than I wouldn't ask the question or questions. Also, we are not on the internet at this section to "play games" - I hope your not either.

 

[cerette]

I never thought Fundi was here just for the sake of being provocative. I can sort of understand why he has the questions he has, knowing what kind of a charismatic background he has. The questions he asks are common among ex-charismatic Christians.

But it is true that he will not receive the sort of answers that would satisfy his unbelieving point of view.

However Fundi, if you still have questions, I would not mind trying to answer them. You have been very polite and come across as sincere to me.

 

[Gareth]

It's been about 15 months post-deconversion after 3.5 decades as a born again Christian.

Though I've only revealed my disbelief to a few friends, family members, and clergy members and have tried to do so as factually, honestly, sincerely and calmly as possible, I'm generally only greeted to two responses.

Silence. I mean people just staring at me like I'm an alien or something. Not knowing what to say. Not willing to discuss at all my journey, my discovery, or the foundations of their own faith for that matter. Kinda like when folks don't know what to say to a post here.

Venom. I mean straight out of the Middle Ages inquisition-style, not-so "Christ-like" mean-spirited, "you're going to hell," compassionless spew. When I try to explore their testimony, why it is that they believe what they believe and do so as calmly as possibly, it's like some sort of B-grade horror movie response.

It seems nobody really likes to talk about the basis of their belief. Why they believe what they believe. And how that's fundamentally different from how the devout of numerous other slightly different and vastly different faiths believe what they believe.

So I guess I'll ask any Christian that's brave enough and polite enough to answer, what is the fundamental, epistemological basis of your faith and how's that fundamentally different than how the devout in other faiths believe what they believe?

Thanks.

Might provide me some insight IRL.

What was it that "did it for you"? After 35 years you weren't convinced you either were not in the right faith or after 35 years you didn't believe in God, His will and purpose, His Son and all the other things that go along with that. Did you have doubts? Did you discuss these with others. Did you look for help and guidance? If you can, please open up and say what it was that made you leave your faith after so long in it.

 

[FundiMentalist]

What was it that "did it for you"? After 35 years you weren't convinced you either were not in the right faith or after 35 years you didn't believe in God, His will and purpose, His Son and all the other things that go along with that. Did you have doubts? Did you discuss these with others. Did you look for help and guidance? If you can, please open up and say what it was that made you leave your faith after so long in it.

It's a long story. I don't know if the rules of this forum permit me sharing my testimony.

 

[FundiMentalist]

the mods will be aware that your knowledge concerning Christianity (as far as reading about it) is vast.

Concerning your parenthetical comment, do you know what it feels like to remember with strong emotion the night you accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior?

Do you know what it feels like to celebrate with joy the yearly anniversary of that day for more than 30 years?

Do you know what it feels like to believe you have a calling on your life?

Do you know what it feels like to look into the night sky and believe you are sensing the wonder of God?

Do you know what it feels like to take your guitar, your bible, and a bunch of sheets of chorus and chords out to the deck and to read and sign for hours?

Do you know what it feels like at the end of a Sunday evening service to linger as one of the last few remaining in prayer?

Do you know what it feels like to want to seek God with all your heart, mind, and being?

Do you know what it feels like to want to know, I mean really know, why you believe what you believe?

Do you know what it feels like to seek and seek, and read and research and meditate for years and come wanting?

Do you know what it feels like to cry out in prayer for God to make himself real and known in a way that in no way can be just one's own wantings and imaginations?

Do you know what it feels like to want to seriously know how the foundations of your own faith is fundamentally different from the foundations of those who are "lost" so you can reach out to them and tell them why?

Can you fathom what it feels like to discover that the foundation of that which meant everything could not other than well-intended institutionalized myth?

Can you appreciate what it feels like to be demeaned and belitted, trivialized and disrespected then?

Can you find compassion for those who hurt?

Can you consider that my "knowledge concerning Christianity" is more than reading?