Why don't Christians like to talk about the basis of their belief?

[Maranatha27]

OK...

Sounds like a start for trying to build a case for Judaism. Or even Mormonism + Jehovah's Witnesses on the other let's-keep-tweaking-the-story-as-we-go-along hand.

So basically, you're saying you've picked your religious beliefs based upon who does the best predictions of future events???

And then worship that???

Do you, like, venerate weather computers too?

Tables that predict eclipses and that?

There are a good number of scientific fields that make incredibly detailed and accurate predictions about certain things.

Just not sure how this is a foundation.

Besides, my OP was more about why most folks don't want to explore this sort of stuff. Any ideas on that?

Lol, No I worship God in spirit and in truth. If you would like to discuss Biblical prophecy, I will be willing, because Im sure you are very ignorant of the subject matter.

 

[Maranatha27]

I think im done debating, I hate the way it makes me feel, Count it up to your victory. I'm going to study. Yes Im going to study and get away from futile debate because i don't think im doing either of us a favor. I will leave you a post from another debate. Good luck Im sorry if I pushed you away further from the One who inhabits eternity.


I cut and pasted this from a debate in a different thread. Prophecy for many believers is the anchor of their faith...

Daniel was prophet that was taken captive to Babylon. God used Babylon to meet out judgement upon Judah between 605-586bc. Daniel a man beloved by God was given revelations that confirm the supernatural origin of his message. Daniels 70 Week prophecy is know to the best prophetic scholars as "the backbone of prophecy". The prophecy can be found in Daniel chapter 9.

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
[25] Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
[26] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
[27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The three books in the Old Testement that are most Intimately connected with this prophecy are Ezra, Nehemiah and Esther.

The prophecy of Daniel concerns 70 "weeks", the hebrew word is heptad. A heptad is a period of 7 years, like we use decade for a ten year period. That being said the 70 "weeks" is a period of 490 years. The prophet was told that the start of the 490 years would begin when the decree was given to rebuild Jerusalem. remember now that the sinful nation was in Babylon as a result of Gods judgement. The book of Nehemiah records the decree to rebuild the wall and city of Jerusalem after Babylon had fallen to Medio-Persia. History dates this return to the land in 445bc. The book of Ezra was the first group to leave exile, but there purpose was to build the temple. Cyrus the king of Medio-Persia played a major role in freeing the Jews from captivity. Isaiah prophesied this man by name 150 years before he was born.(Cf. Isaiah 45:1). The exiles rebuilded their city and the prophecy clock began. The prophecy is broken down into 7 weeks, 62 weeks and 1 week. The 7 week had to do with the completion of the work in troublous times. The 62 weeks or 434 year was the time period that was going to elapse before the Lord Jesus Christ was going to be executed. The last week has brought much disagreement between libral and conservitive scholars, but is clearly seen a the centerpiece of the book of revelation. There is a parenthesis between the 69 and 70 week. This is not uncommon in scripture, many times when the prophets spoke concerning the Coming of Christ, the first and second advent are in the same chapter and sometimes even in the same verse, as is the example of Isaiah 9:6-7:

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
[7] Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

The book of revelation covers a period of 7 years know as the great tribulation. To the Jews it is know as the Time of Jacobs trouble (Cf.Jer 30:7) Because it all has to do with the Jew and the issue of Jerusalem:

Zech 12:1 [1] The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
[2] Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
[3] And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

Pages upon pages can be added, this is the tip of the iceburg, but ill give you a glimps of the Jews reaction:
Zech 13:6
And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends

Praise Jesus Our Lord

 

[cerette]

It's been about 15 months post-deconversion after 3.5 decades as a born again Christian.

Though I've only revealed my disbelief to a few friends, family members, and clergy members and have tried to do so as factually, honestly, sincerely and calmly as possible, I'm generally only greeted to two responses.

Silence. I mean people just staring at me like I'm an alien or something. Not knowing what to say. Not willing to discuss at all my journey, my discovery, or the foundations of their own faith for that matter. Kinda like when folks don't know what to say to a post here.

Venom. I mean straight out of the Middle Ages inquisition-style, not-so "Christ-like" mean-spirited, "you're going to hell," compassionless spew. When I try to explore their testimony, why it is that they believe what they believe and do so as calmly as possibly, it's like some sort of B-grade horror movie response.

It seems nobody really likes to talk about the basis of their belief. Why they believe what they believe. And how that's fundamentally different from how the devout of numerous other slightly different and vastly different faiths believe what they believe.

So I guess I'll ask any Christian that's brave enough and polite enough to answer, what is the fundamental, epistemological basis of your faith and how's that fundamentally different than how the devout in other faiths believe what they believe?

Thanks.

Might provide me some insight IRL.

I don't mind talking about my faith at all. In fact, I love to talk about it. Jesus is the best!!

The Holy Spirit works through the living word to open a man's heart. When he opens our heart and we come to faith in Christ, we become Christians. It is not about me choosing to believe. It is by God's grace he saves me, not my own works.

This differs faith in Christ from other religions. Other religions are about man seeking God--Christianity is about God dying for man and saving him.

 

[FundiMentalist]

Daniel was prophet that was taken captive to Babylon.

What are your thoughts with regard to authorship(s?) of the Book of Daniel as well as dates of authorship?

 

[FundiMentalist]

You guys crack me up. If you'd really been a Christian for 35 years, you'd know why there's no such thing as an "ex-born again" Christian.

Being born again is not like some revolving door you can just walk in and out of. Either you're born again or you never were.

But of course, you were a "Christian" for 35 years, so you already knew that.

I'm not sure all Christians would agree with your semantics. Anyhow, I guess I was just emphasizing that I was one of the personal relationship/personal Lord and Savior Christians. Not the nominal Christian variety.

 

[cerette]

I'm not sure all Christians would agree with your semantics. Anyhow, I guess I was just emphasizing that I was one of the personal relationship/personal Lord and Savior Christians. Not the nominal Christian variety.

I am sad to hear you no longer believe. but that is what easily happens when one puts their faith in their own choice (" I accepted Christ") rather than on the cross of Christ.

 

[FundiMentalist]

I don't mind talking about my faith at all. In fact, I love to talk about it. Jesus is the best!!

The Holy Spirit works through the living word to open a man's heart. When he opens our heart and we come to faith in Christ, we become Christians. It is not about me choosing to believe. It is by God's grace he saves me, not my own works.

This differs faith in Christ from other religions. Other religions are about man seeking God--Christianity is about God dying for man and saving him.

I understand the uniqueness point you're making, just wondering how uniqueness evidences truthfulness.

At one point one hears something like, "all cultures have a flood myth, therefore it's true!"

And then "this differs faith in Christ from other religions," therefore it's true!



Anyhow, how exactly does the uniqueness of a claim attest to its veracity?

 

[cerette]

I understand the uniqueness point you're making, just wondering how uniqueness evidences truthfulness.

At one point one hears something like, "all cultures have a flood myth, therefore it's true!"

And then "this differs faith in Christ from other religions," therefore it's true!



Anyhow, how exactly does the uniqueness of a claim attest to its veracity?

OK I understand your question now and it's a good one.

The answer is: That sort of human/logical thinking is not going to work in order to prove that Christianity is the truth. The Holy Spirit proves it in the heart of the believer. To Unbelievers, it is just foolishness.

Read 1 Corinthians chapters 1 and 2, it talks some about this matter (but it's too long to quote on here).

 

[FundiMentalist]

OK I understand your question now and it's a good one.

The answer is: That sort of human/logical thinking is not going to work in order to prove that Christianity is the truth. The Holy Spirit proves it in the heart of the believer. To Unbelievers, it is just foolishness.

Read 1 Corinthians chapters 1 and 2, it talks some about this matter (but it's too long to quote on here).

So how do you know that was the Holy Spirit and not just a voice in your own head?

 

[Templedweller]

sadly due to your deconversion after 35 some years you have much ammo to swing due to whatever drew you away from the Gospel...I am sorry for that occurence in your life. I trust Jesus Christ and His words and he said it and therefore I stand and when I have done all to stand in his strength only will I stand. I could have been severely comproimised in my ability to comprehend, aborted had my mother not held faith in Jesus, crazy, dead or what have you, but God and God alone was there...His Spirit hasn't let me down.

Have I ever been angry~~~yes
Tempted~~~Yes

But God has shown Himself faithful to me in times of my doubting valleys.

Again I greive that you have deconversionated yourself

I love Jesus Christ and it is for me that he died and everyone who will accept him, placing trust in his work on the cross...it doesnt lose its power I am blessed to share as opportunity arises

 

[FatherHaveMercy]

Well everyone has different beleifs, if you ever need to talk you can pm me or im me either way it doesnt matter

 

[Criada]

I was going to reply in detail to your reply to my last post... but it would have probably led off-topic again, and others have made the points anyway.
Your main question appears to be why Christians don't like to talk about this.... a claim which is somewhat dubious given the responses to this thread.

As to how our way of believing differs... you know the answers there, even if you no longer accept them. My belief comes from a personal relationship with a holy God, which is only possible through the sacrifice of Christ in my place.
No other religion claims this possibility... so the faith of even the most devout is in a distant God or gods. This is not a claim that my faith is 'better'... I am aware that many followers of other religions have a faith which is far stronger than my own. I do not think that I could believe without personal knowledge.

 

[MikeMcK]

I'm not sure all Christians would agree with your semantics.

Has nothing to do with semantics.

If you're going to come to a Christian message board and use Christian terminology, then it is assumed that you are basing that terminology on the Biblical definition of those words.

In this case, you claimed to be born again and are now not born again.

The Bible is very clear that one cannot be born again and then be unborn again.

Anyhow, I guess I was just emphasizing that I was one of the personal relationship/personal Lord and Savior Christians. Not the nominal Christian variety.

How can you have a "personal relationship" with somebody who you claim doesn't exist?

That's not Christianity. That's schizophrenia.

You don't know basic Christian doctrine, you don't know what the Bible teaches, you don't understand basic Christian termonology, and you say that God does not exist, but you expect us to believe that you were a "Christian" for thirty five years?

If somebody who knows as little about Christianity and elementary Christian doctrine as you came to me wanting to be baptised or join our church, I'd send them back for more classes.

 

[FundiMentalist]

Mike, I'd really like to have a conversation with you here.

Interested?

How can you have a "personal relationship" with somebody who you claim doesn't exist?

In the same way you still have a strong, perceived personal relationship, I used to have. Realizing this personal relationship was with a [most wonderful] character I created in my mind was really sad.

You don't know basic Christian doctrine, you don't know what the Bible teaches, you don't understand basic Christian termonology, and you say that God does not exist, but you expect us to believe that you were a "Christian" for thirty five years?

If somebody who knows as little about Christianity and elementary Christian doctrine as you came to me wanting to be baptised or join our church, I'd send them back for more classes.

I'll gladly discuss soteriology, hermeneutics, exegesis, apologetics and more.

As far as the "born again" concept, there's a whole lot there.

In 1st century Judaism at the time of Jesus and Nicodemus there were multiple events/experiences referred to as "born again."

In the rabbinical literature of the time, "born again" is used to refer to at least six different occurrences:

1. When a gentile converts to Judaism
2. When an individual is crowned king
3. At the age of 13, when a Jewish lad choose to follow the covenant and be counted about the believers
4. When a Jew gets married
5. When a Jew becomes a rabbi
6. When a Jew becomes the leader of a rabbinical school

Nicodemus would have experienced most of these. Jesus saying there's another would have be perplexing to him as a 1st century Jew who had gone through all the hoops.

There is a whole lot of theological history and depth around this term.

In my usage of referring to myself as "born again," I wasn't referring to any of this.

I was simply trying to indicate I was not a nominal Christian but one prayed throughout the day, read his bible lots (I've read it through twice), went to church once or more weekly, sang my heart out, led lots of small groups, etc. One who was devout of the Charismatic Evangelical Protestant heritage.

I first prayed the sinner's prayer at the age of four, was baptised in an Assembly of God church at the age of ten, and graduated from Oral Roberts University. While at ORU, I did missions trips to Europe and to Asia. I've led small groups in a number of churches since. I can teach you the guitar chord progressions to countless P&W songs.

I will gladly discuss numerous elements of Christian doctrine. I apologize for appearing uninformed and poorly intended to you. Your condemning spirit in the midsts of all this feels mean-spirited. Can we start with a fresh start?

 

[FundiMentalist]

I was going to reply in detail to your reply to my last post... but it would have probably led off-topic again, and others have made the points anyway.
Your main question appears to be why Christians don't like to talk about this.... a claim which is somewhat dubious given the responses to this thread.

As to how our way of believing differs... you know the answers there, even if you no longer accept them. My belief comes from a personal relationship with a holy God, which is only possible through the sacrifice of Christ in my place.
No other religion claims this possibility... so the faith of even the most devout is in a distant God or gods. This is not a claim that my faith is 'better'... I am aware that many followers of other religions have a faith which is far stronger than my own. I do not think that I could believe without personal knowledge.

I like your post. I think people are more comfortable about talking about such things online. IRL it seems people don't want to "go there" as much.

 

[FundiMentalist]

sadly due to your deconversion after 35 some years you have much ammo to swing due to whatever drew you away from the Gospel...

Thanks for your post. It's not so much a "drawing away," it's more a matter of not finding the whole thing as plausibly believable any more.

I am sorry for that occurence in your life. I trust Jesus Christ and His words and he said it and therefore I stand and when I have done all to stand in his strength only will I stand.

Would love to discuss textual criticism in detail with you.

How do you know what Jesus actually did say?

I could have been severely comproimised in my ability to comprehend, aborted had my mother not held faith in Jesus, crazy, dead or what have you, but God and God alone was there...His Spirit hasn't let me down.

Have I ever been angry~~~yes
Tempted~~~Yes

But God has shown Himself faithful to me in times of my doubting valleys.

Considering all that's known about the workings of the mind, how do you know it was a supernatural force that helped you and not your own self?

And then how do you know which [supposed] supernatural force to attribute credit to?

Again I greive that you have deconversionated yourself

I think you're missing it. It's not so much that one deconverts one's self. The front door of faith is more a matter of aspiration and profession. The back door, more one of admission.

The whole story simply just isn't all that plausibly believable any more. The supernatural. The after life. The creation account. Human origins. The global flood. Babel. etc.

I love Jesus Christ and it is for me that he died and everyone who will accept him, placing trust in his work on the cross...it doesnt lose its power I am blessed to share as opportunity arises

Thanks for sharing.

 

[salida]

I'm sorry you have gotten these responses and I have no idea why. Here is my hard intellectual evidence- but since its a spiritual book people "still" ignore the overwhelming evidence of the Bible because most are spiritually blind and can't and purposely won't understand the things of God.

Biblical Evidence – This is a very small amount of information
out of large amounts of information out there.

Internal Evidences-Prophesies that are confirmed with Bible;

mentioning only a few – but there are hundreds.

Life of Christ
The Tribe of Judah, Gen. 49:10, Luke 3:23-28
(Genesis was written 4004 BC to 1689 BC)
(Luke’s time period is 60-70 AD)

Royal Line of David, Jer 23:5, Matt 1:1
(Jeremiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60-70 AD)

Born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7:14/Matt 1:18-23
(Isaiah 760 to 698 BC)/(60-70 AD)

Rise of Empires
In the book of Daniel, Chapter 2 – four kingdoms are described in the interpretation
of the dream of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greek – Daniel 8:21, 10:20/ and a fourth great kingdom to follow which was part iron and clay – which is the
Roman Empire – during this empire, Christ came and the church was established – Daniel 2:44.

Historical Accuracy

The Bible is loaded with historical statements concerning events of hundreds of years ago, yet
none of them has been proven to be incorrect.
(Bible compared to other ancient documents)
New Testament – starts at 25 years – between the original and surviving copies
Homer- starts at 500 years/Demosthenes – at 1400 years/Plato – at 1200 years/
Caesar – at 1000 years

Number of Manuscript Copies

New Testament – 5,686/Homer – 643/Demosthenes – 200/Plato – 7/Caesar – 10

Consistency – Written by 40 men over a period of time exceeding 1400 years, and has no
Internal inconsistencies.



Claim of Inspiration- It claims to be spoken by God, 2 Tim 3:16-17). No other religious book makes such claims.


External Evidences

(Prophesies Outside the Bible)
These cities were prophesied to be destroyed and never to be built again- and they haven’t.
Niveveh – Nahum 1:10, 3:7, 15, Zephaniah 2:13-14
Babylon – Isaiah 13:1-22
Tyre -Ezekiel 26:1-28

Bible before Science

He hangs the earth on nothing – Job 26:7
(Job was written at least 1000 years ago – some scholars think it could have been even 3000
years ago)
Note: Man only knew the above for 350 years.
Earth is a sphere – Isaiah 40:22/Air has weight – Job 28:25/
Gravity – Job 26:7, Job 38: 31-33/Winds blow in cyclones, Eccl 1:6

Documents that Prove Bible is True

Gilgamesh Epic, The Sumerian King List, Mari Tablets, Babylonian Chronicles

Archealogical Evidence (Still adding to this list today- it hasn’t stopped)
Excavations of Ur, Location of Zoar, Ziggurats and the foundation of Tower of Babel

****Many christians may not want to discuss it because they don't study to show themselves approved like the Bible suggests. Or even know the Bible which is a horrible.

 

[MikeMcK]

In the same way you still have a strong, perceived personal relationship, I used to have. Realizing this personal relationship was with a [most wonderful] character I created in my mind was really sad.

The key words here being "a character I created in my mind".

If Christ was not real, then there would be no Christ to die on the cross, no Christ to be raised three days later. Thus, no Christ for you to be crucified with and no Christ for you to be raised with. Thus, you're not born again.

If you were born again, then you would have received a new nature and there would be observable, discernable evidence to this day.

Like I said, having a relationship with a "character you created in your mind" isn't Christianity, it's schizophrenia.

As far as the "born again" concept, there's a whole lot there.

In 1st century Judaism at the time of Jesus and Nicodemus there were multiple events/experiences referred to as "born again."

In the rabbinical literature of the time, "born again" is used to refer to at least six different occurrences:

1. When a gentile converts to Judaism
2. When an individual is crowned king
3. At the age of 13, when a Jewish lad choose to follow the covenant and be counted about the believers
4. When a Jew gets married
5. When a Jew becomes a rabbi
6. When a Jew becomes the leader of a rabbinical school

And I am using the term as it is found in John 3:3, γεννηθη ανωθεν, which literally means "born from above" and in 1 Peter 1:23, αναγεγεννημενοι, which means the same thing.

The Bible defines being born again as dying to sin and receiving a new nature.

I was simply trying to indicate I was not a nominal Christian but one prayed throughout the day, read his bible lots (I've read it through twice), went to church once or more weekly, sang my heart out, led lots of small groups, etc. One who was devout of the Charismatic Evangelical Protestant heritage.

Being "devout" and participating do not make one born again.

I first prayed the sinner's prayer at the age of four

And where in the Bible is the "Sinners' Prayer"?

was baptised in an Assembly of God church at the age of ten

Being baptised does not make you born again.

and graduated from Oral Roberts University. While at ORU

Graduating from a joke of a school founded by a heretic doesn't save you, either.

I did missions trips to Europe and to Asia.

Doing missions trips doesn't make you born again. Before I was a Christian, I went on missions trips with some of the most depraved people you ever did see.

I've led small groups in a number of churches since.

Yeah? I taught Sunday School for years before I was a Christian. That didn't make me born again.

I can teach you the guitar chord progressions to countless P&W songs.

Doesn't make you born again.

I will gladly discuss numerous elements of Christian doctrine. I apologize for appearing uninformed and poorly intended to you. Your condemning spirit in the midsts of all this feels mean-spirited. Can we start with a fresh start?

Don't care. You may consider it "condemning and mean spirited", but all I did was point out the obvious: that you're just another atheist who has no clue what Christianity teaches who comes here to falsely claim to have been a Christian in order to try to demean our religion.

You may consider what I said "condemning and mean spirited" but, frankly, I consider this whole ruse to be pathetic.

OK, then never was "born again" in your book. My heart sinks saying that. It meant everything to me, ya know.

That’s right. According to the Bible, you are not born again.

Counter question, what's the evidence in your life?

Among other things, my life lines up with John 2:5; 1 John 2:15; 1 John 2:19; 1 John 3:2-3; 1 John 3:9; 1 John 3:14; 1 John 3:22; 1 John 4:1; 1 John 4:13

Anyhow, I was reminded of these verses:

1Pe 3:15 But have reverence for Christ in your hearts, and honor him as Lord. Be ready at all times to answer anyone who asks you to explain the hope you have in you, 1Pe 3:16 but do it with gentleness and respect. Keep your conscience clear, so that when you are insulted, those who speak evil of your good conduct as followers of Christ will become ashamed of what they say.

I agree.

John 2:5, Do you really do all that the Bible claims Jesus said to do?

As far as I know, I do.

1 John 2:15, Cool. I'm not very materialistic.

Has nothing to do with materialism. There are plenty of people who have nothing, but who love the world and the things of the world.

Seems like someone who claims to have been a "Christian" for 35 years would have known what this verse means.

1 John 2:19, Cool. Still fellowship. Still go to church. Still tithe more than 10% of gross. Only a small number of people IRL know of my apostasy.

Oh, so then you’re a hypocrite?

1 John 3:2-3, I'm hosed. Pure (hagnos) can be interpreted as having quite a high standard. But then again, Strong's as a possible "figurative" disclaimer so I really don't know. Maybe being "figuratively" pure is good enough.

Either you’re born again or you’re not.

1 John 3:9, Now there's a serious standard. Are you suggesting you don't sin at all??? This is one of those verses that makes me wonder how much the authors simply used hyperbole as a literary technique.

So, in thirty-five years of alleged Christianity, you never studied this passage?

1 John 3:14, Good stuff. Do you consider me your brother?

No. By your own admission, you are an atheist so you are not my brother.

1 John 3:22, You're suggesting whatever you ask for you get? So people who don't get whatever they petition for is not "born again" in your book?

Again, hard to believe that you would claim to have been a Christian for 35 years and still not have any clue what this verse is talking about.

1 John 4:1, No that's a verse I love! In fact, that's what we're doing. It's a good question asking whether the Bible is of God or of men. A very good question.

Shame you didn’t bother to read the next two verses.

1 John 4:13, Poetic. Not really sure what it means though.

You would if you had been a Christian for thirty-five years, like you claim.

Anyhow, those verse look a bit all over the map. The definite don't seem to say the same thing to me. I used to think it was all "a mystery" and "who am I to know God."

And if you had been a Christian for 35 years, as you claim, then you’d know that the Bible was written so that we can know God and God tells us how we can know Him.

Wow. No wonder you're so certain.

Anyone who believes the word of God can be certain.

 

[FundiMentalist]

Salida, this is well intended but, ugh.

C&P out of McDowell (or something similar) is lame.

There are all sorts of issues with these by respected bible scholars concerning authorship, dates of authorship, translation of key words (such as Isaiah's "virgin" into the Greek LXX), varying interpretations of some of these specific prophecies, etc.

Also there's plenty of science to discuss concerning modeling of heredity over generations, lack of evidence historicity of characters mentioned, etc.

And then we have the logical fallacies to address. For instance, lots of copies is not evidence of truthfulness, package deal fallacy with the claim of inspiration, that the Epic of Gilgamesh no more proves the Torah than the Torah proves the veracity of the Epic of Gilgamesh (special pleading), etc.

Seriously...

 

[FundiMentalist]

The key words here being "a character I created in my mind".

If Christ was not real, then there would be no Christ to die on the cross, no Christ to be raised three days later. Thus, no Christ for you to be crucified with and no Christ for you to be raised with. Thus, you're not born again.

OK, then never was "born again" in your book. My heart sinks saying that. It meant everything to me, ya know. But then again, for all I can tell it's not like anything magical happens - the term's just an in-group descriptor.

Don't care... You may consider what I said "condemning and mean spirited" but, frankly, I consider this whole ruse to be pathetic.

Anyhow, I was reminded of these verses:

1Pe 3:15 But have reverence for Christ in your hearts, and honor him as Lord. Be ready at all times to answer anyone who asks you to explain the hope you have in you, 1Pe 3:16 but do it with gentleness and respect. Keep your conscience clear, so that when you are insulted, those who speak evil of your good conduct as followers of Christ will become ashamed of what they say.