Why don’t Protestants like the Crucifix, and some the cross

[bling]

If the NT exalted it and boasted of it (Gal 6:14, 1Co 2:2), I would.

You did not address the questions. Paul is talking to Christians, and I am talking about Non-Christians and really people who are not familiar with the Christian cross. The early Christians used the sign of the fish.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

I suspect that you‘re looking for a deeper analysis, but maybe Luther’s 95 theses are a start.

There are certainly historians of Christianity on these boards who can do infinitely greater justice than I, but my understanding too is that Luther was far from the first Catholic theologian to push for the final authority of scripture, against Rome’s displeasure.

Part of it was the Renaissance. Scholars suddenly had access to Greek literature (Homer, Greek drama, that beforehand were Latin translations, often not from Greek, but from Arabic. For example, Plato's works were translated in the 15th century.

There are also proto-Reformers and movements such as Jan Hus, the German Friends of God, Peter Abelard, and finally Erasmus. These all promoted the idea of returning to original materials.

When I was taking a class on the Reformation at Xavier University in Cincinnati, my Jesuit professor believed that if Luther and others had arrived on the scene in the 1400s, it may be been possible for the Reformation to had taken a more gentle turn without the Western church breaking into pieces.

 

[Sketcher]

Many Protestants seem to dislike crucifixes, so they only use crosses. Now, it seems like the more modern Protestants don’t even like crosses in their churches either.

This makes no sense to me. In 1 Corinthians 1:23 Paul was very clear when he wrote, “we preach Christ crucified.”

I’m not say we don’t need to preach Jesus risen, but I think we should do both.

For the record, I don't care. Either a crucifix or a cross may be used correctly or incorrectly.

The crucifix portrays Christ being crucified, the empty cross symbolizes that he isn't dead anymore, they took him down from the cross, but he is risen from the grave. Both have their place.

 

[dzheremi]

Venerate is a synonym of worship. Those who worshiped idols weren't worshiping the materials the idol image was made of, but rather who the idol image represented.

So when, e.g., judges are described as "venerable", do you think that means that they are worshipped by the court?

 

[ozso]

So when, e.g., judges are described as "venerable", do you think that means that they are worshipped by the court?

No, but if the court got down on their knees and prayed to the judge it might at least certainly look that way.

 

[ozso]

No, its not. The Greek words doulia, meaning veneration, and latria, meaning worship, are completely different, and the Seventh Ecumenical Council held in Nicaea in 787 AD in Greek required doulia (veneration) of saints, relics and icons while strictly prohibting latria, or worship of them. And this council, even though the Oriental Orthodox were absent, also clearly reflects their position, I think @dzheremi would agree.

Most people don't know any of that and they go by what they observe rather than the words in either English or Greek used to describe it. And what they observe is people bowing and getting on their knees in front of a statue of Mary to pray to her. Which is just too close to resembling idol worship, for those not indoctrinated into the practice to be comfortable with. All of the many trappings of Crucifixes, Mary, Saints, Relics etc seem like a distraction.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Most people don't know any of that and they go by what they observe rather than the words in either English or Greek used to describe it. And what they observe is people bowing and getting on their knees in front of a statue of Mary to pray to her. Which is just too close to resembling idol worship, for those not indoctrinated into the practice to be comfortable with. All of the many trappings of Crucifixes, Mary, Saints, Relics etc seem like a distraction.

Only to the uniformed who only "go by what they observe". Not comfortable with it? fine. But don't judge those who are.

 

[ozso]

Only to the uniformed who only "go by what they observe". Not comfortable with it? fine. But judge those who are.

I'm just explaining the Protestant point of view as I regard it.

 

[dzheremi]

No, but if the court got down on their knees and prayed to the judge it might at least certainly look that way.

Okay. I was just checking because you claimed in the post that I was replying to that "venerate" and "worship" are synonyms. Now it seems like you recognize that they are not, and your objection to veneration is based in what it looks like to you.

Can I just say that it is mighty strange to read posts like this coming from someone who appears to have an Eastern Orthodox icon as their avatar here on CF? Do you know what the Eastern Orthodox do with regard to the veneration of icons? I know our friend @The Liturgist has ably covered the conciliar background of this topic, but there is a lot more to it than just how to understand particular Greek or English words. There is also what people do, which seems to be what you are showing the most concern about.

 

[The Liturgist]

Okay. I was just checking because you claimed in the post that I was replying to that "venerate" and "worship" are synonyms. Now it seems like you recognize that they are not, and your objection to veneration is based in what it looks like to you.

Can I just say that it is mighty strange to read posts like this coming from someone who appears to have an Eastern Orthodox icon as their avatar here on CF? Do you know what the Eastern Orthodox do with regard to the veneration of icons? I know our friend @The Liturgist has ably covered the conciliar background of this topic, but there is a lot more to it than just how to understand particular Greek or English words. There is also what people do, which seems to be what you are showing the most concern about.

Indeed, and I kiss my icons that way, and my Gospels.

By the way, the Eastern Orthodox procedure when venerating an icon is to kiss our Lord if He is depicted, or otherwise a Gospel (one or the other will be depicted in every icon), thus venerating either the Word or the Word of the Word.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Indeed, and I kiss my icons that way, and my Gospels.

By the way, the Eastern Orthodox procedure when venerating an icon is to kiss our Lord if He is depicted, or otherwise a Gospel (one or the other will be depicted in every icon), thus venerating either the Word or the Word of the Word.

Psalm 2:12
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

 

[Clare73]

You did not address the questions. Paul is talking to Christians, and I am talking about Non-Christians and really people who are not familiar with the Christian cross. The early Christians used the sign of the fish.

The cross could be a good conversation starter.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The cross could be a good conversation starter.

In Israel it is a good conversation stopper !!!

 

[bling]

The cross could be a good conversation starter.

That is a good answer, and it is something no other religion has. However, crucifixion is a heavy topic, and you need a strong understanding of atonement with lots of help from the indwelling holy spirit.
Peter's first public sermon was very much a Christ Crucified sermon that resulted in 3000 experiencing a death blow to their hearts. But today we cannot go up to a nonbeliever and say: "you murdered the Messiah". That takes a lot of explaining. You might say: "My personal actions resulted in the torture, humiliation and cruel murder of Christ", but that takes lots of explaining also.

 

[ozso]

Okay. I was just checking because you claimed in the post that I was replying to that "venerate" and "worship" are synonyms. Now it seems like you recognize that they are not, and your objection to veneration is based in what it looks like to you.

I think it's more like what it looks like to most who aren't into it. This thread is about why Protestants aren't into certain things, and I'm offering my two cents worth as to why.

Can I just say that it is mighty strange to read posts like this coming from someone who appears to have an Eastern Orthodox icon as their avatar here on CF? Do you know what the Eastern Orthodox do with regard to the veneration of icons? I know our friend @The Liturgist has ably covered the conciliar background of this topic, but there is a lot more to it than just how to understand particular Greek or English words. There is also what people do, which seems to be what you are showing the most concern about.

There shouldn't be anything strange about explaining Protestant views in a thread like this. Don't make this about me. I didn't create Protestant viewpoints and attitudes towards Catholicism. I'm just explaining them as I understand them. What something is called, the word used for whatever, is irrelevant. What's relevant is what's actually taking place. How about discussing what's actually going on rather than arguing over semantics?

 

[prodromos]

What's relevant is what's actually taking place. How about discussing what's actually going on rather than arguing over semantics?

We aren't God, so we are unable to know what is in the hearts and minds of the people kneeling before a statue.

 

[ozso]

We aren't God, so we are unable to know what is in the hearts and minds of the people kneeling before a statue.

Most Protestants would say that's why they are against kneeling and praying before statues and images in the first place. And that scripture has always spoken about such practices in the negative.

 

[ozso]

Let me ask this. Are crucifixes and icons of saints and Madonna statues considered holy and sacred? Like if I went into some shop and bought a mass produced crucifix or Madonna statue, and then smashed it on the sidewalk, would that be considered motal sin sacrilege?

 

[dzheremi]

I think it's more like what it looks like to most who aren't into it. This thread is about why Protestants aren't into certain things, and I'm offering my two cents worth as to why.

Okay.

There shouldn't be anything strange about explaining Protestant views in a thread like this.

That's not what I wrote. I wrote that it is strange that someone with an Eastern Orthodox icon as their posting icon would write the sorts of things you've written in this thread.

Don't make this about me. I didn't create Protestant viewpoints and attitudes towards Catholicism. I'm just explaining them as I understand them. What something is called, the word used for whatever, is irrelevant. What's relevant is what's actually taking place. How about discussing what's actually going on rather than arguing over semantics?

That's why included the video of Eastern Orthodox venerating an icon in my last reply. Because that is what is going on, over and above whatever you or anyone calls it or how it might seem to anyone who doesn't practice it.

Though I totally disagree that it is unimportant what something is called. "A rose by any other name..." is great poetry, but lousy theology. For examples as to why this is, see the main conflict at Ephesus in 431 regarding Nestorius and the term "Theotokos", or the much later arguments between the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics with regard to the filioque clause. Words and the sense in which we use them absolutely do matter. Semantics is actually really important.

 

[ozso]

That's not what I wrote. I wrote that it is strange that someone with an Eastern Orthodox icon as their posting icon would write the sorts of things you've written in this thread.

The depiction in my avatar has absolutely nothing to do with the subject matter of this thread. Also there's nothing wrong with images of Christ or Mary or the Apostles to Protestants. How the image is treated and regarded is the issue. I don't pray to that icon, I don’t bow to it or kiss it etc. To me it's just an illustration of the Resurrection and the Harrowing of Hell.

That's why included the video of Eastern Orthodox venerating an icon in my last reply. Because that is what is going on, over and above whatever you or anyone calls it or how it might seem to anyone who doesn't practice it.

Though I totally disagree that it is unimportant what something is called. "A rose by any other name..." is great poetry, but lousy theology. For examples as to why this is, see the main conflict at Ephesus in 431 regarding Nestorius and the term "Theotokos", or the much later arguments between the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics with regard to the filioque clause. Words and the sense in which we use them absolutely do matter. Semantics is actually really important.

The subject matter of this thread is why Protestants don't do what Catholics do. The OP has posted a few threads asking why Protestants don't whatever. Therefore I am endeavoring to explain why Protestants don't do certain things Catholic do. The OP isn't seeking the Catholic view regarding these matters, he's seeking the Protestant view, which is what I'm supplying.

Now people people bowing to, kneeling to, praying to, or kissing a statue or image looks like worship to most Protestants - regardless of what it's being called.