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Why doesn't God reveal himself in a logical, evidence-based manner?

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bling

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The problem that, again, you and a great deal of many other theists use "logical" to mean something that seems intuitive and "feels right" rather than something that actually follows the principles of logical deduction. If we were to actually follow logic, an intelligent designer is in fact completely illogical as you would need to abandon logical principles altogether in order to come to such a conclusion. In your case, "logical" is apparently nothing more than a synonym for "belief".

Also, there are plenty of other arguments that non-theists have. Regarding Christianity alone, I've listed numerous examples of narrative, scientific, and logical inconsistencies of the Bible in this thread. God's morals, too, leave much to be desired. And even if the question that I bring up in this thread is the only one, it's also one that has yet to be satisfactorily answered.
“The philosophy of science” would rule out “God”, but “Logic” is taking what we know or assume (evidence) and figure out something we do not know and that could be an intelligent designer.

It has been a while since I studied philosophy, so how is “an intelligent designer completely illogical”?

Suppose the first moon astronauts had found a nice big Bible on the moon, would it be “logical” to assume that God most likely put it there?

The argument is about the Christian God’s existence and not the Bible.

I have told you the reason for God not reveling Himself and that is man’s need for faith.

No, but it's a fitting analogy. How are you so sure that the universe was designed for life instead of life developing in such a way as to adapt to the universe?

All the evidence we have points towards life adapting itself to its environment. On the other hand, we have zero evidence that the universe was designed with life in mind. This should be fairly obvious, like how one does not assume that a cavity adapts itself to the shape of the water in a puddle, but yet, as I've previously mentioned, theists who are usually quite sensible otherwise tend to throw logic out of the window completely when it comes to matters of religion.
Science has been looking at heavily the concept life just developing to fit the environment, but the more they learn about the needed component to the simplest form of life, the more they realize how delicate it is. Forty years ago people were suggesting there could be non organic life and/or at least non DNA life, but we pretty much thrown that out and are trying to figure out how organic DNA type life could ever get started.
That's incorrect. I simply don't concern myself with God, in pretty much the same way you don't concern yourself about purple winged unicorns on Saturn (I'm quite sure you didn't just wake up one day and consciously decide: "Okay, from this day onwards I'll reject the existence of purple unicorns on Saturn!").
Not being concerned about God is living like there is no God.

Thomas had no doubt of the existence of God or Jesus because he was also shown proof of those. Paul, by his own account, zealously persecuted God's church before his conversion (Galatians 1:13). It seems extremely strange that Jesus had no problems with revealing himself to Paul, whereas I can confidently claim that I have never physically harmed a Christian and am fairly open to the concept of God if only there were solid evidence, yet Jesus is unable to reveal himself to me.
Is your heart such that you would become a modern day Paul if Christ revealed Himself to you?

All Paul’s past sinning became a powerful part of his witness; “This is what I was and did, but through Jesus this is what I have become.”

Again, God does not need you to acknowledge His existence that can come later at the judgment.



You seem to believe that knowledge and faith are incompatible. Is there a reason for this?
If you have “knowledge” of something you do not need to have faith in the area of that knowledge. If you know that God exist you do not need faith in the existence of God.


Again, I was under the assumption that it was fairly obvious that to know that we're accountable to an all-powerful, all-knowing, loving supreme being who created us in his own image would be quite humbling. If it's actually not obvious, I'll simply speak for myself then, but aren't you humbled by knowing that you're accountable to God?
If you have “knowledge” of something you do not need to have faith in the area of that knowledge. If you know that God exist you do not need faith in the existence of God.



I disagree. It isn't possible for giving up on yourself to lead to any positive results. Knowledge and acknowledgment of one's own insignificance is what leads to humility. If you truly gave up on yourself, you wouldn't even be trying to earn God's favor via your works and your faith at all. If us giving up on ourselves was what God wants of us, why on earth does he want us to seek him and obey his laws and believe in him? We've already given up on ourselves, remember?
Again God does not “want” anything from you, we are not doing and really cannot do anything to “earn”, God is not wanting you to go on some kind of a quest looking for Him, He as at your elbow you just have to turn (figuratively) and He is there. Obeying his “Law” is Loving him and others with all our heart, soul, mind, and energy, but that comes if we accept His Love and allow it to work.

Yes we do have to believe (trust Him to help us), but nothing else works, so why not trust Him?

Pride (self center, ego centric, selfishness) is the opposite of humility.

You do not have to believe the Bible but Jesus tells us what it means to give up on self (pride fully trying to solve the problem ourselves) and rely on our creator’s (father’s) Love when we totally do not deserve it, with Luke 15: 11-32.
The Bible is a one-sided, biased account that fails to tell the true reason the Pharisees rejected Jesus. Jesus failed to fulfill the messianic prophecies, and he tried to do away with the Mosaic laws and replace them with the New Covenant. How would you feel if another self-proclaimed messiah came along tomorrow and told you that you should obey his New New Covenant instead?
How could the Pharisees that got to see, hear, question, and experience Jesus not know He was from God? They above all others should have been able to recognize Him as the Messiah (and deep down they did, but did not want to give up their positions). Another subject.
That said, I don't feel particularly proud. Knowing a fact and feeling pride over it are two different things. You know that you're a better person than Adolf Hitler and Saddam Hussein; does that knowledge make you proud? Exactly.
I am not a better person then Adolf Hitler or Saddam Hussein, but I have accepted God’s Love.




And your evidence for that it?
As of right now, so do you “trust” believe (have faith) they will find a system or that there is a system?
 
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“The philosophy of science” would rule out “God”, but “Logic” is taking what we know or assume (evidence) and figure out something we do not know and that could be an intelligent designer.

It has been a while since I studied philosophy, so how is “an intelligent designer completely illogical”?
Because there is no valid pathway of logical deduction that leads to it.

Would you like to propose one?

Suppose the first moon astronauts had found a nice big Bible on the moon, would it be “logical” to assume that God most likely put it there?
That would depend on your pathway of logical deduction. Without you laying out the argument, it's hard to say.

The argument is about the Christian God’s existence and not the Bible.
The Bible is closely tied to the subject of God, given how it's advertised as a divinely-inspired text that is absolutely true. Finding errors and inconsistencies in the Bible is hence very relevant to the argument at hand. If this divinely-inspired text contains so many errors, what do you suppose that says about God?

I have told you the reason for God not reveling Himself and that is man’s need for faith.
I disagree. A considerable number of the world population lack faith, and they're getting along just fine. The obvious answer to my argument is that faith is required for spiritual, otherworldly ends, but that's simply using a baseless claim to back up another baseless claim.

Science has been looking at heavily the concept life just developing to fit the environment, but the more they learn about the needed component to the simplest form of life, the more they realize how delicate it is.
How does that mean life cannot have developed specifically so as to be able to survive in its environment? On a planet with a heavy carbon- and oxygen-based atmosphere, would you expect that life started off by trying to metabolize, say, deuterium? Of course not.

In fact, I would propose that the "delicateness" of life (as you put it) is much stronger evidence for life developing for its environment than for an all-powerful designer. If we ever find life that cannot possibly have survived its environment via any means whatsoever but still did anyway, now that would be proof of a designer's handiwork!

Forty years ago people were suggesting there could be non organic life and/or at least non DNA life, but we pretty much thrown that out and are trying to figure out how organic DNA type life could ever get started.
That's quite irrelevant. All that's needed in the beginning is inexact self-replicators, whether living or otherwise. Evolution takes over from there.

Regarding your earlier argument that no model of abiogenesis has ever been proposed for peer review, I decided to investigate that claim. At least two are reviewed and reproduced by credible scientific journals and universities, and heavily cited by other publications: the iron-sulfur world theory and the RNA hypothesis. I don't have enough privileges to post links, but look them up on on Wikipedia or Google Scholar.

Not being concerned about God is living like there is no God.
Agreed, but as is the case with purple unicorns on Saturn, it doesn't necessarily mean any conscious decision was made.

Is your heart such that you would become a modern day Paul if Christ revealed Himself to you?

All Paul’s past sinning became a powerful part of his witness; “This is what I was and did, but through Jesus this is what I have become.”
It's hard to say. If I knew Christianity were true, however, I can safely say that I will believe and I will preach the gospel that I know to be true, pretty much like how I'm advocating what I know to be true now.

Besides, past sin is hardly a prerequisite to be a great witness. Consider the apostles. Consider Peter, who later became the rock on which Jesus built his church. There's no consensus in the Bible that you need to be of such-and-such character before you can become a useful part of God's kingdom.

Again, God does not need you to acknowledge His existence that can come later at the judgment.
No, he doesn't "need" to. He just wants us to. Yet his actions are horribly inconsistent with his wishes in that regard.

If you have “knowledge” of something you do not need to have faith in the area of that knowledge. If you know that God exist you do not need faith in the existence of God.
That seems rather contradictory. If you believed that X is true and acted as though X is true, and the results of your actions are exactly what you'd expect if X was true, and if this keeps happening over time, then you'd end up with the knowledge that X is indeed true. Faith in something that is true, leads to knowledge that that something is indeed true.

If you look on this forum, or just in this thread itself, you'll find Christians – yourself included – saying "I know God exists,", not "I don't know if God exists, but I believe he does." If you truly believed in the latter position, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all.

Again God does not “want” anything from you
In other words, God doesn't give a sh*t.

Which I think is actually a very sensible explanation, and would perfectly explain the state of things in the world today. But unfortunately, that's not what the Bible says. I wish it did, though. Christianity would make a whole lot more sense all of a sudden; we do have a supreme being, but he doesn't care.

we are not doing and really cannot do anything to “earn”,
Yes we can. As you've been arguing all along, we need to have faith in the unseen and unknowable, we need to accept Jesus, we need to have the correct "heart". You might claim that those acts are paltry and insignificant, but they're still things we need to accomplish by our own effort and ability, and they're also things that are not possible if we truly gave up on ourselves.

How could the Pharisees that got to see, hear, question, and experience Jesus not know He was from God?
Simple. As I've explained before, Jesus failed to fulfill the messianic prophecies given by Isaiah, Ezekiel, Amos, et al, and he tried to abolish God's laws (e.g. not obeying Sabbath) and set up a New Covenant where one needs to believe in him. He demonstrated miracles, but those could just as easily be from the devil rather than from God. All in all, Jesus was a pretty heretical figure, really.

I am not a better person then Adolf Hitler or Saddam Hussein, but I have accepted God’s Love.
That's curious. It would seem that you have a strange definition of "better". I'm assuming you haven't been responsible for any war crimes, genocides, ethnic cleansing, or acts of widespread terrorism, and are just a normal person. Assuming those are true, it's a simple fact that you're better than Adolf Hitler or Saddam Hussein.

You claim to be a chemist. It's also a simple, straightforward fact that you know more about chemistry than the average layperson, assuming you're any good at your profession. Does that make you feel arrogant or proud? No? Exactly. Part of humility involves recognizing and accepting these simple facts. There's no need to put on a false air of humility by pretending to be just as evil as Hitler when it's blatantly obvious that that's not the case.

As of right now, so do you “trust” believe (have faith) they will find a system or that there is a system?
No, I don't know how things will turn out. It's just that you made a definite claim stating your position on the matter, and I'm wondering what evidence do you have to back it up.
 
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norswede

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There may be more options to choose from that we do not yet know about. We can agree about Jesus but IMO the creation story is a metaphor. We would have to completely deny Science in order to believe that the earth is only several thousand years old.

The idea that the earth is only several thousand years old is not necessarily biblical. I don't know if you've ever looked up the gap theory but the way I believe it, The Days spoken of were not literal days but either hundreds, thousands or for all we know even millions of years. This happens throughout the Bible such as Daniel's 70 weeks. Most scholars don't believe this was referring to a literal 70 weeks. There is also the "Time, times and half a time" spoken of by Daniel that many scholars believe to be 3 1/2 years, but we don't know for sure. There are also many numbers that are repeated throughout the Bible such as 7,12 and 40. These numbers are found numerous times in every book of the Bible. What the significance of these numbers was, we can't be sure of but the obviously mean something.
So in theory, Each "year" could have been a much larger extent of time and the time Adam and Eve lived "sinless" and without death in the garden of Eden is not made clear either. Next to the Book of Revelation and the Book of Daniel, the Book of Genesis is the most symbolic book of the Bible and therefore cannot be taken 100% literally. For instance I don't think many Christians believe that snakes are literally the embodiment of Satan, I think most Christians understand that the symbol of the snake is used for Satan in the same way as the symbol of the Lamb or the Lion is used for Jesus Christ. There are also those who believe (though this is getting into more gnostic teachings) that the snake was symbolic of DNA which is why strands of DNA look a lot like a snake. Although I don't believe in the majority of what gnostics believe, this may very well be true. When Adam and Eve fell, their DNA was obviously altered causing them to no longer be immortal and therefore causing their bodies to age, deteriorate and die. Scientists have been struggling to figure out what makes us age and reverse the process for decades and I have an interesting theory about this that I will explain in another thread. But anyway, the only reason Christians believe that the earth is only 6 thousand years old is because they starting counting the generations from the point of the fall.
 
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The idea that the earth is only several thousand years old is not necessarily biblical.
And yet remained the overwhelmingly dominant view until the eighteenth century, where the scientific revolution prompted Christians to re-interpret the Bible to try to square it with science.
 
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razeontherock

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Einstein was then asked if he accepted the historical existence of Jesus, to which he replied, "Unquestionably! No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life."

Source : Wiki

Great find! This was also my experience. (I learned to ready by reading His Words)
 
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razeontherock

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So God isn't everything and everywhere. God is only GOOD things. And then your argument goes straight to hell. It's contingent upon what you think is GOOD. And when it becomes contingent upon what a man thinks... it becomes useless.

My irony meter is pegged! The value of the Bible is in knowing G-d's thoughts, being freed from what humans think.

So anyway, I'm glad you see the value of such freedom. (This is the WHOLE POINT of the first story in the Bible, you know where a certain couple took it upon themselves to think about a certain thing differently than G-d did.)

Are we made in his image as it says in the Bible?

^_^ The puniness of your attack is laughable ^_^ You might try actually reading it sometime?! (It does NOT say this :doh:)


Your god has EVERYTHING to prove to an atheist. If your god can't prove it exists to someone that doesn't believe in it then it doesn't exist.

Um, no He doesn't. What makes you think the Universe revolves around you?!?
 
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razeontherock

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Christians have no problems with labeling unbelievers as hard-hearted, evil, of the devil, selfish and caring only of their own desires, do not know love, are going to hell, etc., as has been amply demonstrated in this thread, but apparently you don't take it too well when the tables are turned

1) You'll notice I have said no such thing. Or quote me and prove me wrong

2) The stinging list you cite is what the Bible reveals to exist in the human heart, (believer and unbeliever alike) so anyone saying such things is at least half right ^_^

3) None of this means that your post in question complies with this site's rules, curiously under blasphemy:

"You will not insult or mock Christianity or any part of the Trinity-Father(God), Son(Jesus) and the Holy Spirit. Honest debate about the nature of God and Christianity is allowed, but derogatory remarks will be promptly removed."

What you have seen from me is mercy, and patience. Don't push it
 
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razeontherock

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From my personal experience, theists are just as logical as most other people. It's just that they have a strange tendency of shutting down their logical thinking abilities whenever it concerns matters of religion.

You don't have much experience then. How old are you?

In response to your question, the most accurate answer would be "design" without a sentient designer. Life is "design" that arise out of natural consequences. To imagine how this is possible, ice has an ordered crystalline structure that is caused by the nature of its molecular bonds. There is no need to arrange ice into a structure; internal forces will automatically cause ice molecules to organize themselves without anyone doing so.

And you fail to see how whatever Power caused all this to be, made it so? (This would be G-d, btw; just in case that somehow escaped you)

Formation of molecular crystals, colloids, lipid bilayers, phase-separated polymers, self-assembled monolayers, the folding of polypeptide chains into proteins and the folding of nucleic acids into their functional forms, et cetera, are all examples of order and "design" arising

Likewise to this extremely short list of "what the hand of G-d has wrought." His Glory is revealed, and you choose to turn a deaf ear?!?

Just imagine how much more difficult it is to Create things in such a manner that "it's seed is in itself," as the Bible tells us, rather than simply putting it there in stable form.

Under the right conditions, simple chemical elements will combine to produce the basic building blocks of life.

You really don't know the failure of the Miller Ulrey experiment? Oh my. (They did not discover "naturally occurring building blocks of life," but of death.)

your blind and overpowering awe for him causes you to unquestioningly accept his every word.

That'll be enough of that! Seriously. Take your insults elsewhere.
 
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paul becke

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"If we were to actually follow logic, an intelligent designer is in fact completely illogical as you would need to abandon logical principles altogether in order to come to such a conclusion."

This sentence, alone, exposes your incapacity for this kind of topic. Far from "intelligent design" being illogical, it is virtually a tautology. The very word, "design" necessarily implies both intelligence and purpose! You secularists think random pattern-making reflects intelligent design, don't you? What an irony! All those coincidences...

Have you ever heard of a college of Art and Pattern-Making. No, because, with the exception of patterns designed for garments, patterns are random. We have no experience, however, of any kind of design that was not the product of an intelligence. It even has approximate synonyms, such as "plan", "intention", etc:

Design | Define Design at Dictionary.com

As for your rather childlike ascription of everything relating to relativity to the Minkowski Formula as some kind of catch-all explanation.... well, it's all of a piece with your failure to understand the absolutely primordial, 'a priori' logic of the term, "intelligent design", isn't it?

Seculars scientists at least understand that the proper reference-frame of light cannot be space-time, so they invoke a vacuum for it. Unfortunately, there is no such thing as a perfect vacuum, since particles appear and disappear all the time. But even if outer space were a perfect vacuum, it would still be included within and proper to space-time, indeed, it defines a pole of the space-time continuum.

In the circumstances, I'm afraid I must have recourse to Karl Popper's excuse for leaving you the field to you: Why should I jump into a whirlpool, to stab a drowning man in the back?
 
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GA777

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There's a difference,you guys have can have the proof,if you truly seek.
There are countless I knew who experienced demonic/angelic experiences,or who felt a complete love after praying from their heart after being away from Jesus for a long time,or after praying to Jesus for the 1st time.

So, I just want to ask you a few questions:

The 365 prophecies which were predicted in the OT about Jesus and which all came true are a coincindence?

The many scientific things said in the bible 3k and 4k years ago,which are now proved by Science,or got proved by science 1000s of years later are a coincindence?

Did the disciples risk their lives for nothing?And wanted to be dead and tortured because of a lie?

How did many who worshipped other Gods,convert to Christianity,while those people were so racist and so stubborn about religion all the time?And they were converting quickly and fast?There are important proofs behind it,so called miracles convinving the people to convert.

Why do so many people nowadays encounter angels/demons while many never heard about such beings or never knew them,and the problem is that everybody describes them in the same way.Why dont they see aliens or monsters or anything instead of angels/demons?The numbers is running too great to ignore.

Why do tarot readers predict the future well?Why do some psychists predict many things in the future everytime?(My sister many years ago had a tarot reader predict many things which most happened in the near future)+(a pshychist comes and predicts many detailed events about the future on every new year,and every time , at least 80% of his predictions come true everytime,if not 90s%.

i have countless questions I can ask, but these should be enough.

Any idea?
 
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oi_antz

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I can only wonder why I'm even wasting my time responding to such garbage posts instead of waiting for bling, oi_antz or rturner to post something useful. I must be really bored this morning.
I'm flattered, but I'll have you know that Ray has been studying theology much much longer than I have. There must have been some bad blood between you two at some point, I think if you can shake hands then you may be able to benefit from his knowledge. There is a proverb about this:

Proverbs 20:5
Though good advice lies deep within a counselor's heart, the wise man will draw it out.

It seems that correspondence requires a mutual effort. You came around here trying to understand God better, I think if you concentrate on doing that then you could be able to get some answers rather than what appears to be relentless argument.
 
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