Why does the UK think differently about firearms compared to the US? Which country has more freedom?

[Charles Watson-Wentworth]

I asked this question some years ago back in the early 2000's on a random message board when there was dial-up internet and the answers were very "out there" I must say. Some sounded simple while some were far more complex. What do you all think? I don't mean to cause a stir, I just wanted to see how the times changed and how opinions differed from almost 20 years ago.

Thank you.

 

[Gene2memE]

I think a more germane question is: Why does the US think differently about firearms compared to the rest of the world?

As for freedom, firearms are just one small factor among a multitude.

As the UK scores consistently higher than the US on global human freedom indexes - even those complied by US conservative/libertarian/right wing organisations with very pro 2nd Amendment positions - I'd say that there is a pretty strong case the UK is more free.

 

[Chesterton]

Obviously, they think differently about firearms because the freedom to own firearms caused them to lose their American colonies. As far as freedom in general, Great Britain is a dystopian nightmare coming true. Ironically, the country which birthed George Orwell is becoming more "Orwellian" every year.

 

[Occams Barber]

I asked this question some years ago back in the early 2000's on a random message board when there was dial-up internet and the answers were very "out there" I must say. Some sounded simple while some were far more complex. What do you all think? I don't mean to cause a stir, I just wanted to see how the times changed and how opinions differed from almost 20 years ago.

Thank you.

Why does the UK think differently about firearms compared to the US?

Looking at the differences in firearm ownership levels it appears that virtually all Western Democracies 'think differently about firearms' compared to the US. From the outside the US' infatuation with firearms is a little puzzling.

Which country has more freedom?

The UK. According to the Cato Institute 2017 Human Freedom Index the US is a little downstream of the UK when it comes to freedom:

The top 10 jurisdictions in order were Switzerland, Hong Kong, New Zealand, Ireland, Australia, Finland, Norway, Denmark, and, tied at 9th place, the Netherlands, and the United Kingdom. Selected countries rank as follows: Canada (11), Sweden (13), Germany (16), the United States (17), Japan (27), South Korea (29), France (33), Italy (35), Chile (37), South Africa (68), Mexico (73), Indonesia (78), Turkey (84), Kenya (89), Malaysia (97), India (102), United Arab Emirates (116), Russia (126), China (130), Nigeria (133), Pakistan (141), Zimbabwe (146), Saudi Arabia (149), Iran (154), Egypt (155), Venezuela (158), and Syria (159).
​

EDIT: The Democracy Index also has the UK ahead of the USA. UK sits in 14th place while the US rates 25th.

​

OB

 

[JackRT]

I can't speak to the situation in the UK but I can to Canada which does not have the same fascination with firearms as the USA. Most of the difference lies in our histories. Right from the beginning the American colonies were a frontier society and that led them into being a violent society. The enemy were regarded as "savages" who were dealt with in a genocidal way. On the American frontier the law arrived late and people dealt with law breakers violently. The exact opposite happened in Canada. The law was well established before the settlers arrived. The Canadian historian Pierre Burton once observed that if an American and a Canadian were each asked what was the primary value in their society, the American would reply "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" while the Canadian might say "Peace, order and good government". Our histories make us different.

 

[Theophilus2019]

Possibly because North America was for so long a “frontier” country with Indians and bandits always about to raid, so until recent times having a gun was essential and that worked itself into the mores of society.

Here in the UK we stopped being a “frontier” society about the year 1500, when a strong Tudor monarchy established itself after the turbulent Middle Ages. This was before guns became much more effective than bows and readily available.

Thereafter, except for our 1642-1650 civil war which wasn’t a “frontier” conflict and in which only the armies we’re fighting we’ve had relatively stable law and order. Our national enemies have always been over the natural barrier of the sea.

That background has entered our cultural mores. Here in the UK most sane individuals don’t even want to own a gun. The idea is abhorrent to us. We don’t see strong anti gun laws as an affront to freedom. We don’t even want our police armed, and it’s a talking point when we see a policeman with a gun.

 

[JackRT]

Possibly because North America was for so long a “frontier” country with Indians and bandits always about to raid, so until recent times having a gun was essential and that worked itself into the mores of society.

Here in the UK we stopped being a “frontier” society about the year 1500, when a strong Tudor monarchy established itself after the turbulent Middle Ages. This was before guns became much more effective than bows and readily available.

Thereafter, except for our 1642-1650 civil war which wasn’t a “frontier” conflict and in which only the armies we’re fighting we’ve had relatively stable law and order. Our national enemies have always been over the natural barrier of the sea.

That background has entered our cultural mores. Here in the UK most sane individuals don’t even want to own a gun. The idea is abhorrent to us. We don’t see strong anti gun laws as an affront to freedom. We don’t even want our police armed, and it’s a talking point when we see a policeman with a gun.

I recall reading a news story about Iceland several years ago. The country was in absolute shock. For the first time in its entire national history a policemen shot and killed a citizen. A man had gone insane and was attacking people with an axe.

 

[High Fidelity]

We are allowed to own firearms in the UK, and I own several, just not for self-defence.

A lot of paranoia in the U.S. for the silliest reasons regarding the government and tyranny.

I doubt we'll ever go down that route again of ownership for self-defence. I certainly hope not because it isn't worth the negatives it brings with it. If anything they outweigh the positives.

 

[mindlight]

I asked this question some years ago back in the early 2000's on a random message board when there was dial-up internet and the answers were very "out there" I must say. Some sounded simple while some were far more complex. What do you all think? I don't mean to cause a stir, I just wanted to see how the times changed and how opinions differed from almost 20 years ago.

Thank you.

I think it would be harder for the state to stomp all over armed Americans than it is for governments here in Europe to intrude in the lives of European citizens. But that European governments generally respect individual freedoms. We have granted the state a monopoly of force whereas you have not. But in real terms I feel safer walking down a street here than in the USA. My freedom to live in peace is arguably enhanced by the fact that far fewer people here have the means to shoot me.

 

[Charles Watson-Wentworth]

We are allowed to own firearms in the UK, and I own several, just not for self-defence.

A lot of paranoia in the U.S. for the silliest reasons regarding the government and tyranny.

I doubt we'll ever go down that route again of ownership for self-defence. I certainly hope not because it isn't worth the negatives it brings with it. If anything they outweigh the positives.

If you cannot defend yourself when authority figures cannot respond quickly enough, what shall you do? Die? I know I'm not. I've got a c96 Mauser and a Luger p08 on me at all times for those who try to hurt me. There is also another reason why we here have guns in the good old USA - to strike down our own government if it becomes too powerful or becomes tyrannical. Our Constitution states that we can storm the white house and demand that the government change because the government serves us, not enslaves us. They bend at our will, not the other way around.

 

[High Fidelity]

If you cannot defend yourself when authority figures cannot respond quickly enough, what shall you do? Die? I know I'm not. I've got a c96 Mauser and a Luger p08 on me at all times for those who try to hurt me. There is also another reason why we here have guns in the good old USA - to strike down our own government if it becomes too powerful or becomes tyrannical. Our Constitution states that we can storm the white house and demand that the government change because the government serves us, not enslaves us. They bend at our will, not the other way around.

It's a case of what's acceptable. Many people here find it acceptable that a small number of people may die in times like you've mentioned and that it doesn't warrant everyone being able to own a firearm for self-defence because of the negative, well-documented problems we're reminded of daily in the news from our brothers and sisters across the pond.

The tyrannical government argument is very outdated, too. It's just an excuse because people don't want to give up their toys.

 

[Occams Barber]

If you cannot defend yourself when authority figures cannot respond quickly enough, what shall you do? Die? I know I'm not. I've got a c96 Mauser and a Luger p08 on me at all times for those who try to hurt me. There is also another reason why we here have guns in the good old USA - to strike down our own government if it becomes too powerful or becomes tyrannical. Our Constitution states that we can storm the white house and demand that the government change because the government serves us, not enslaves us. They bend at our will, not the other way around.

Your stress levels must be through the roof if you find it necessary to be constantly pistoleered up to the eyeballs. If you were to apply the same over-the-top risk analysis to planes, trains, and automobiles you would never move beyond the nearest street corner.

Those of us in the rest of the Western world don't share your anxieties. Within our societies the idea of habitually toting a six gun is seen as ridiculous, unnecessary and inconvenient.
OB

 

[JackRT]

If you cannot defend yourself when authority figures cannot respond quickly enough, what shall you do? Die? I know I'm not. I've got a c96 Mauser and a Luger p08 on me at all times for those who try to hurt me. There is also another reason why we here have guns in the good old USA - to strike down our own government if it becomes too powerful or becomes tyrannical. Our Constitution states that we can storm the white house and demand that the government change because the government serves us, not enslaves us. They bend at our will, not the other way around.

So you are a member of a well ordered militia?

 

[Charles Watson-Wentworth]

It's a case of what's acceptable. Many people here find it acceptable that a small number of people may die in times like you've mentioned and that it doesn't warrant everyone being able to own a firearm for self-defence because of the negative, well-documented problems we're reminded of daily in the news from our brothers and sisters across the pond.

The tyrannical government argument is very outdated, too. It's just an excuse because people don't want to give up their toys.

In scenarios where a firearm would have shot an intruder, I think that would have been a lot better than dying. Defend yourself or die trying I say. But to not try at all or to flee danger is failure.

Also, the tyrannical government argument is not outdated because it is a very real thing that can happen. Even though our government have 3 branches of government and checks and balances, politicians find loop holes and attempt to gain power even though they are not allowed to do so. Yes, our government is 243 years old (if that is what you call outdated), but tomorrow could be its last day, and tomorrow could be the day that we all grab up arms and demand that the government change for the better.

 

[Charles Watson-Wentworth]

So you are a member of a well ordered militia?

We are. It is in our Constitution that the government serves us and not enslaves us. It is a government for the people, not a government for the government.

 

[JackRT]

We are. It is in our Constitution that the government serves us and not enslaves us. It is a government for the people, not a government for the government.

In my experience most militias (in the USA) are nothing more than a group of armed thugs with some sort of agenda that has little if anything to do actual government.

 

[Charles Watson-Wentworth]

Your stress levels must be through the roof if you find it necessary to be constantly pistoleered up to the eyeballs. If you were to apply the same over-the-top risk analysis to planes, trains, and automobiles you would never move beyond the nearest street corner.

Those of us in the rest of the Western world don't share your anxieties. Within our societies the idea of habitually toting a six gun is seen as ridiculous, unnecessary and inconvenient.
OB

So, defending yourself is inconvenient? What a laugh. Maybe you'd think twice once you get attacked like someone did to me. They had a knife and I put them down with a gut pistol that I had. No police were going to come to my aid in the 10 seconds that it happened. If I would have ran or held my hands up or something then he would have killed me, but I put a hole between his eyes and he fell like a sack of potatoes. Ever since then guns have been my best friends.

But preach your anti-American theology, it does not phase me or make me want to do anything different than what I have been doing before. I shoot guns and turn things into swiss cheese, I get a laugh out of bottles exploding when a bullet goes through them, and it's great knowing that I am more powerful than my government and not the other way around. I have the power, not them. So compare apples to oranges, but our government works for us and you are wrong in saying that we are wrong when our government has been nearly the same for 243 years. Our founding fathers wished to have a fair government where the people are in power and that is what they delivered. We have the freedom to say what we want, we have the power to shoot anything we want, and we have the power to make all types of money and build a business if we want (and more things of course).

So label me as full of anxiety, but it is not an anxiety when I have a piece on my side. "God created all men, but Samuel Colt made then equal". And you know what, every other country is wrong. America first, America is the best, and every other country that isn't named America sucks and I don't want anything from them, I don't want to visit them, and I despise all of them. I especially despise people telling me that my country is wrong or messed up when it is, in fact, perfect in every way and your government that has been enslaving you and brainwashing you has indoctrinated you with lies and how to be at their feet like a peasant servant to his king. In America we are the kings and the government is the peasant servants. We are in control. So no, you are wrong. it is not inconvenient, unnecessary, or any of the like words you used. It is pure freedom and that is why America is the best nation on Earth. You can be anything and you have the freedom and power to do so.

 

[High Fidelity]

In scenarios where a firearm would have shot an intruder, I think that would have been a lot better than dying. Defend yourself or die trying I say. But to not try at all or to flee danger is failure.

Also, the tyrannical government argument is not outdated because it is a very real thing that can happen. Even though our government have 3 branches of government and checks and balances, politicians find loop holes and attempt to gain power even though they are not allowed to do so. Yes, our government is 243 years old (if that is what you call outdated), but tomorrow could be its last day, and tomorrow could be the day that we all grab up arms and demand that the government change for the better.

And while you preach about keeping your government in check, you're posting proudly online about killing a man from a country that has legalised bribery of politicians, a sitting President aided by an enemy state, a healthcare system leaving millions with adequate care because they have the misfortune of not being able to pay the inflated prices for care dictated to them by greedy corporations backed by greedy politicians.

What are you doing about that?

Like I said the tyrannical government card is a joke.

As for the home invasion scenario, it has been proven you're statistically more likely to get shot in a home invasion when you're armed yourself.

What a joke.

 

[JackRT]

I especially despise people telling me that my country is wrong or messed up when it is, in fact, perfect in every way

There is no country on this planet that perfect in every way. If we were to hold a competition in that respect, I very much doubt the USA would make the top ten.

 

[Charles Watson-Wentworth]

In my experience most militias (in the USA) are nothing more than a group of armed thugs with some sort of agenda that has little if anything to do actual government.

Well this militia has been around for 243 years. Seems like the only thug here is you for disagreeing with my government and suggesting other morals that I would never agree with. I won't listen to such slander and false lies at that anyways.

Also, would you just look at the picture below? It's beauty to me. I probably own that many guns but I haven't counted them in a few years. Sucks to be you I guess. Every human is capable of doing harm so guns are around to make sure people stay in their place if they decide to break the law. It's a beautiful thing indeed to know that you can kill someone if they are trying to kill you... Only you can do it faster with a gun versus the knife they may have. No one would want to mess with you then. I mean who wants to die? Probably not the guy wanting to kill you unless he's stupid. "God created all men but Samuel Colt made them equal."