Why does the Millennial doctrine matter to the church?

[BobRyan]

BTW: the presumption for this thread is that everyone agrees the 2nd coming has not happened and the millennium is still future.

A lot of churches don't discuss this very much and even SDA churches don't discuss it directly by name all that often. But still it is an important topic to look at.

============================

Whether one is pre-trib rapture, or mid-trib, or post-trib the question of the Millennium and what happens at it - still has to be answered. Specifically

• What is the Millennium?
  
• where are Christ and the saints during the Millennium?

1. The Millennium is only mentioned one place in scripture - Rev 20 , the 1000 years. Starts with what is called "the first resurrection" which happens as part of the Rev 19 second coming and rapture.

2. There are two possible answers for "Where are the saints and Christ during the Millennium?"

a. Christ is in heaven after having taken the saints to heaven at the rapture and second coming. So both Christ and the saints are in heaven for that time and the wicked are all dead, (with Satan and his angels confined to Earth and no one to tempt).

b. Christ and the saints are on Earth during that time and Christ holds the wicked under some restraints for 1000 years.​

If 2A is correct - then it opens the door to a "world-wide fake" to happen where Satan presents a pre-emptive option 2B only to have everyone shocked and surprised after that "staged" 2B event - with the genuine 2A event.

If 2B is correct - then some sort of massive rapture and resurrection event will have taken place and all the 2A people will 'notice' that they are suddenly in glorified heavenly body form -- but still on Earth for some reason. So not too much of a "downside" for guessing wrong.

===============================


rapture happens at 2nd coming #2

Rapture event – takes Saints taken to heaven. #1

Desolate Earth during Millennium -- A moment ago #1

Saints sit in judgment over the wicked during millennium #8

Saints receive heavenly body – glorified bodies at the rapture event. #1

Do the saints receive glorified bodies at the Rapture/Second-coming event?

All the Wicked slain at the rapture/second coming event of Rev 19 #1

All the World gets it wrong in the end even among Christians who call Christ Himself “Lord Lord” and do works in His name - #14

==================================

Today it looks like "All the World" thinks the 2B version is correct.
Christians almost all line up with 2B
Muslims are lined up for 2B
Hindus', Buddhists, New Agers -- line up with 2B and age of peace, Age of Aquarius
Judaism lines up for 2B

All the world "not deceived".

yet -- the Bible says --

All the World gets it wrong in the end even among Christians who call Christ Himself “Lord Lord” and do works in His name - #14

 

[mindfulzen]

Bit heavy, and I cannot answer for others, only for me, first portion. It does not matter if he came in 1950, 2000, 2016 or 2050. It is about correct, a few years shaved does not change anything. And just the way it is, if this is gone, it changes a lot. It does not concern me. Faith is faith. Truth is truth. We all have individual faith, we are not a monolith, like 50 denominations. So, can only say that things I find important does not matter to others, and things that matter to me, does not matter to others. We are a mixed bag. And some things I thought was key 3 months, may not be what I think is key in 3 years. We are all students. I do not get it either, what does it matter, if the messiah came at the year 2000 and you was unawere, which I was because I was an atheist? If I believe now, and have the chance of a personal relationship with God, if I reach out? Demanding proof is antithetical to faith. If I am graced with faith, why would I need proof? A contradiction of terms, right? Actually a logical fallacy, as the atheist use to quote. here we have ours to return to sender.

 

[BobRyan]

So while it is not a much discussed topic - it would have a big downside if 2A were the right scenario - with all the world betting on 2B.

 

[BobRyan]

Bit heavy, and I cannot answer for others, only for me, first portion. It does not matter if he came in 1950, 2000, 2016 or 2050

Ok but for the record (and I will add this to the OP) the presumption is that everyone agrees the 2nd coming has not happened and the millennium is still future.

 

[BobRyan]

Bit heavy, and I cannot answer for others, only for me, first portion. It does not matter if he came in 1950, 2000, 2016 or 2050. It is about correct, a few years shaved does not change anything. And just the way it is, if this is gone, it changes a lot. It does not concern me. Faith is faith. Truth is truth. We all have individual faith, we are not a monolith, like 50 denominations. So, can only say that things I find important does not matter to others, and things that matter to me, does not matter to others. We are a mixed bag. And some things I thought was key 3 months, may not be what I think is key in 3 years. We are all students. I do not get it either, what does it matter, if the messiah came at the year 2000 and you was unawere, which I was because I was an atheist? If I believe now, and have the chance of a personal relationship with God, if I reach out? Demanding prrof is antithetical to faith. If I am graced with faith, why would I need proof? A contradiction of terms, right?

Well we agree that being a Christian and so then having faith in Christ is the important thing because not only do we have forgiveness of sins and the born-again experience but we also have the Bible , the Word of God and the "Spirit of Truth" (John 16) guiding us into all truth.

There is another benefit as well...we find it in 2Thess 2, and Ephesians 4.

God warns us against getting on the wrong side of this issue in 2 Thess 2.
2 Thess 2:
Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a message, or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6 And you know what restrains him now, so that he will be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is removed. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will eliminate with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not accept the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Eph 4 - God sends gifts of the Holy Spirit to protect us from fatal deception
11 And He gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of people, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, that is, Christ,

 

[BobRyan]

God warns us that Satan pulls off a masterful deception and the end and pretty much everybody falls for it.

All the World gets it wrong in the end even among Christians who call Christ Himself “Lord Lord” and do works in His name - #14


=============== post #14

The bible says all the world gets this end-time scenario wrong. In the end the majority are wrong on this detail - and are taken in by the final events deception of Satan.

Rev 13:
3 I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast; 4 they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?”

8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men. 14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast,


2 Thess 2:
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,

Matt 24:
23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

Someone says "hey wait what about the Christians - those who know Christ and the Gospel could never be mistaken like this could they"?

Matt 7 - "the many" who say "Lord Lord" to Jesus will be mistaken
13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
....
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’

 

[Derf]

If 2B is correct - then some sort of massive rapture and resurrection event will have taken place and all the 2A people will 'notice' that they are suddenly in glorified heavenly body form -- but still on Earth for some reason. So not too much of a "downside" for guessing wrong.

1Thess 4 seems to indicate there isn’t much guesswork in recognizing the real event. Maybe for either scenario. Would it be possible for a believer not to recognize the shout of the archangel, the trumpet, and meeting Jesus in the air with other, previously dead, believers?
1 Thessalonians 4:16 (KJV) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 

[mindfulzen]

Well we agree that being a Christian and so then having faith in Christ is the important thing because not only do we have forgiveness of sins and the born-again experience but we also have the Bible , the Word of God and the "Spirit of Truth" (John 16) guiding us into all truth.

There is another benefit as well...we find it in 2Thess 2, and Ephesians 4.

I am a new christian, I do not know that much about the bible. I came to learn. It is all about God for me, I cannot opine much about Jesus, apart from saying that he points to God, and is God incarnate. And went away, and we await him to return now, to save the people again, and this is the time of the return, unless I missed it, since I was an atheist 21 years ago. Jesus is the metaphysical God, and I have yet to see him, and doubt he can reveal himself for 9 billion people, without MSMs help, so the devil may have taken precautions to stop that. I do not believe that Jesus would be allowed on MSM today, and would be scrubbed from the internet, as we are. So would not really have a chance in saving us, with the mess we allowed to happen, when we created hell on earth and cultivated it. Thinking it freed us, when it enslaved us. Bit wordy, I know. A tangent, I am a writer of sorts, so freeflow

That covered, Jesus is unconditional love from God as I see it, the word of God enacted, that the people did not understand at that time, so they needed an example. So God suffered. Now, we must understand it, we have learned a lot, we have education, some have good ones. We should be able to read a book that is 2000 years old, and give a simple bookreview and understand it, right? Come on people. We must learn, and be worthy. I do not want to ask God to go metaphysical again, and make another son, then get killed, because I have no faith and need convincing, when I have faith. I do not require it. I have no doubts. So, god gets to chill, no need for a new suffering for me. I need no examples of pain and suffering to get convinced. Bit unconventional perhaps, but I am a new christian, and do not demand of God, God demands of us. And it changes, never read the book, I read parts here and there. Not giving advice, this is just how I feel about it right now while learning.

 

[BobRyan]

I am a new christian, I do not know that much about the bible. I came to learn. It is all about God for me, I cannot opine much about Jesus, apart from saying that he points to God, and is God incarnate. And went away, and we await him to return now, to save the people again, and this is the time of the return,

agreed 100%

Jesus is the metaphysical God, and I have yet to see him, and doubt he can reveal himself for 9 billion people, without MSMs help,

Jesus is infinite God and does not need an infinitely less advanced entity like MSM to help Him.

So Revelation 1: 7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him."

Matt 24:
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Jesus as God can do that easily - the devil well might need MSM to pull it off however since he is not infinite God. Rev 12 says Satan has 1/3 of the angels in heaven - fallen like him so he "can" appear in the sky with a host of angels... but he cannot get that viewed all around the world at once just by having people look up in the sky.

 

[BobRyan]

1Thess 4 seems to indicate there isn’t much guesswork in recognizing the real event. Maybe for either scenario. Would it be possible for a believer not to recognize the shout of the archangel, the trumpet, and meeting Jesus in the air with other, previously dead, believers?
1 Thessalonians 4:16 (KJV) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thess 4 would in the 2A event of course be very visible and nobody would mistake it - but even with 2A and 1 Thess 4 not a problem... there is the possibility of someone else (like Satan for example) doing something BEFORE the 1Thess 4 event takes place.

a fake version. Where he (satan) appears with myriads of angels , in the sky - taking his seat in the temple of God as though he IS god (as 2Thess 2) said with "ALL power and signs and lying wonders).

Only to then have the REAL 1 Thess 4 event follow a few years later and a whole bunch of people shocked and surprised that they had been duped by an earlier event.

 

[Derf]

1 Thess 4 would in the 2A event of course be very visible and nobody would mistake it - but even with 2A and 1 Thess 4 not a problem... there is the possibility of someone else (like Satan for example) doing something BEFORE the 1Thess 4 event takes place.

a fake version. Where he (satan) appears with myriads of angels , in the sky - taking his seat in the temple of God as though he IS god (as 2Thess 2) said with "ALL power and signs and lying wonders).

Only to then have the REAL 1 Thess 4 event follow a few years later and a whole bunch of people shocked and surprised that they had been duped by an earlier event.

That’s why I point out the part about meeting Jesus in the air, along with dead loved ones. Satan is unlikely to be able to fake that.

 

[mindfulzen]

agreed 100%



Jesus is infinite God and does not need an infinitely less advanced entity like MSM to help Him.

So Revelation 1: 7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him."

Matt 24:
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Jesus as God can do that easily - the devil well might need MSM to pull it off however since he is not infinite God. Rev 12 says Satan has 1/3 of the angels in heaven - fallen like him so he "can" appear in the sky with a host of angels... but he cannot get that viewed all around the world at once just by having people look up in the sky.

I would not hedge my bet on that if I were you, just have faith. It will probably not be too easy to spot, or it would not be a test of faith. I for noe, look outside, and might have seen and listened to the second coming or not, and it does not matter for my faith. It is not for me to test my God, it is for my God to test my faith., and for me to qualify for heaven. I do not demand, he does.

None of us are here in the end times my brother, get past it. We have finite lives, we must only get things in order for ourselves while we are present on earth. Consider your time on earth, and imagine it is not the endtimes in your lifetime, what happens if you do no sort out stuff? What if God wants to save your grandchildren too, and you have yet to have kids? Why would anybody require profv? I do not get it. It counters faith. Just the way it is for me.

 

[BobRyan]

That’s why I point out the part about meeting Jesus in the air, along with dead loved ones. Satan is unlikely to be able to fake that.

Satan could bring people into the air and even raise the dead in the form of Angels impersonating loved once raising from the dead etc. But what about billions doing it world wide and all the living given new immortal bodies and floating up into the air etc... So you are right that 2B trying to fake a rapture and saints bodies transformed into eternal glorified form would be a bit of a stretch. He would have to sell "a lowered expectations form of it". Still it would be far beyond what anyone has seen to date and would take in a lot of folks.

 

[Derf]

There’s no doubt he will deceive a lot of folks, including, if he can, the very elect.

No doubt also that he prepares his deceptions over long periods of time, so wolves in sheep’s clothing have been amongst the sheep since the beginning of the church—and impacted the Thessalonians and others with false doctrine.

I wonder about near death experiences, whether they are also a deception, to make people think they are right with God when they aren’t. And then they are easier to deceive in a fake 2nd coming.

 

[Derf]

I would not hedge my bet on that if I were you, just have faith. It will probably not be too easy to spot, or it would not be a test of faith. I for noe, look outside, and might have seen and listened to the second coming or not, and it does not matter for my faith. It is not for me to test my God, it is for my God to test my faith., and for me to qualify for heaven. I do not demand, he does.

None of us are here in the end times my brother, get past it. We have finite lives, we must only get things in order for ourselves while we are present on earth. Consider your time on earth, and imagine it is not the endtimes in your lifetime, what happens if you do no sort out stuff? What if God wants to save your grandchildren too, and you have yet to have kids? Why would anybody require profv? I do not get it. It counters faith. Just the way it is for me.

If no proof is required, why must everything be two or three witnesses?

2 Corinthians 13:1 (KJV) This [is] the third [time] I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

 

[BobRyan]

None of us are here in the end times my brother, get past it.

Daniel 8 already points to our time as the time of the end. That ship has sailed.

what happens if you do no sort out stuff? What if God wants to save your grandchildren too, and you have yet to have kids?

God leads each one of us no matter if we lived 5000 years ago or today in what He calls "the time of the end". Dan 8:17.

In leading us - He has given His Word informing us about what we need to be aware of -- namely that the massive deception is in the works as 2 Thess 2 and that those who do perish at the end are those who "did not accept a love of the Truth" - God says "His Word is Truth" John 17:17. Adam and Eve did no treasure that Word of Truth - and paid dearly for it. Lesson learned.

 

[BobRyan]

There’s no doubt he will deceive a lot of folks, including, if he can, the very elect.

No doubt also that he prepares his deceptions over long periods of time, so wolves in sheep’s clothing have been amongst the sheep since the beginning of the church—and impacted the Thessalonians and others with false doctrine.

I wonder about near death experiences, whether they are also a deception, to make people think they are right with God when they aren’t. And then they are easier to deceive in a fake 2nd coming.

Bingo!

 

[reddogs]

BTW: the presumption for this thread is that everyone agrees the 2nd coming has not happened and the millennium is still future.

A lot of churches don't discuss this very much and even SDA churches don't discuss it directly by name all that often. But still it is an important topic to look at.

============================

Whether one is pre-trib rapture, or mid-trib, or post-trib the question of the Millennium and what happens at it - still has to be answered. Specifically

• What is the Millennium?
  
• where are Christ and the saints during the Millennium?

1. The Millennium is only mentioned one place in scripture - Rev 20 , the 1000 years. Starts with what is called "the first resurrection" which happens as part of the Rev 19 second coming and rapture.

2. There are two possible answers for "Where are the saints and Christ during the Millennium?"

a. Christ is in heaven after having taken the saints to heaven at the rapture and second coming. So both Christ and the saints are in heaven for that time and the wicked are all dead, (with Satan and his angels confined to Earth and no one to tempt).

b. Christ and the saints are on Earth during that time and Christ holds the wicked under some restraints for 1000 years.​

If 2A is correct - then it opens the door to a "world-wide fake" to happen where Satan presents a pre-emptive option 2B only to have everyone shocked and surprised after that "staged" 2B event - with the genuine 2A event.

If 2B is correct - then some sort of massive rapture and resurrection event will have taken place and all the 2A people will 'notice' that they are suddenly in glorified heavenly body form -- but still on Earth for some reason. So not too much of a "downside" for guessing wrong.

===============================


rapture happens at 2nd coming #2

Rapture event – takes Saints taken to heaven. #1

Desolate Earth during Millennium -- A moment ago #1

Saints sit in judgment over the wicked during millennium #8

Saints receive heavenly body – glorified bodies at the rapture event. #1

Do the saints receive glorified bodies at the Rapture/Second-coming event?

All the Wicked slain at the rapture/second coming event of Rev 19 #1

All the World gets it wrong in the end even among Christians who call Christ Himself “Lord Lord” and do works in His name - #14

==================================

Today it looks like "All the World" thinks the 2B version is correct.
Christians almost all line up with 2B
Muslims are lined up for 2B
Hindus', Buddhists, New Agers -- line up with 2B and age of peace, Age of Aquarius
Judaism lines up for 2B

All the world "not deceived".

yet -- the Bible says --

All the World gets it wrong in the end even among Christians who call Christ Himself “Lord Lord” and do works in His name - #14

The issue is that God has to show everyone in the universe that He is truly just, even the saints, and this is the reason for the 1000 years in heaven with the saints..
Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[Derf]

The issue is that God has to show everyone in the universe that He is truly just, even the saints, and this is the reason for the 1000 years in heaven with the saints..
Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

There’s no requirement for God to show He’s just, He does so because He is just, and it shows.

Rev 20:1 seems to have John viewing the scene from the earth. The angel “comes down from heaven”. Then thrones are set up. The more likely intent is that the thrones are set up on earth, and the saints reign on earth for 1000 years. The previous chapter also helps, as the Lord Jesus comes to earth with His army to destroy the armies of the Beast, which armies were gathered specifically to make war with the Lord—on horses. And while Jesus might be coming on horseback down from heaven, it’s unlikely the Beast is planning on flying all his armies up into heaven, so the events are probably taking place on earth, including them being slain by the sword proceeding from Jesus’ mouth.

 

[Gary K]

There’s no requirement for God to show He’s just, He does so because He is just, and it shows.

Rev 20:1 seems to have John viewing the scene from the earth. The angel “comes down from heaven”. Then thrones are set up. The more likely intent is that the thrones are set up on earth, and the saints reign on earth for 1000 years. The previous chapter also helps, as the Lord Jesus comes to earth with His army to destroy the armies of the Beast, which armies were gathered specifically to make war with the Lord—on horses. And while Jesus might be coming on horseback down from heaven, it’s unlikely the Beast is planning on flying all his armies up into heaven, so the events are probably taking place on earth, including them being slain by the sword proceeding from Jesus’ mouth.

I fully agree that God is just. But how many Christians still live with doubts about God? God must clear up all doubts about Himself if sin is to never reappear in the universe.

If someone whom you think should be in heaven isn't there with you what would be your natural response?