Why does the Gospel contain nothing about believing Yeshua is God?

[Runningman]

You are just trying to explain clear verses to mean something "lesser" than they mean in their context, going with worse manuscripts, etc.

But in the whole picture, such a case has no chance for success, thats why "trinitarianism" is accepted in all Christianity for thousands of years. No debate about it is open anymore. The case is clear and closed.

Logos is God, Jesus equated himself with Father, He is the only begotten God, He was equal with God before incarnation, everything was created through Him, He rules over all creation etc. No, it does not mean just "he behaved well".

According to scripture they were calling him a man decades after his ascension to heaven. Referring to his God as the Father, saying he's an image, firstborn, begotten son, son of man, etc.

Stephen witnessed this first hand. A man in heaven standing next to God. It means that God and the Son of Man aren't the same person.

Acts 7:56
56and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”

 

[Clare73]

Do you confess Christ came in the flesh or God came in the flesh?

The Bible tells us to believe Scripture, and Scripture tells us that the Word is God (Jn 1:1) and that
the Word who is God became flesh and dwelt among us (Jn 1:14).

One gets to decide whether to believe Jn 1:1, Jn 1:14 or not.
Some choose unbelief.

 

[trophy33]

According to scripture they were calling him a man decades after his ascension to heaven. Referring to his God as the Father, saying he's an image, firstborn, begotten son, son of man, etc.

Stephen witnessed this first hand. A man in heaven standing next to God. It means that God and the Son of Man aren't the same person.

Acts 7:56
56and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”

Should I quote the verses I quoted before, again? They have not disappeared from the Bible.

 

[Lukaris]

The heretic of this thread said St. Irenaeus agrees with him that Jesus Christ is not God?

Really?:

The Holy Ghost, throughout the Old Testament Scriptures, made mention of no other God or Lord, save him who is the true God.
1. Therefore neither would the Lord, nor the Holy Spirit, nor the apostles, have ever named as God, definitely and absolutely, him who was not God, unless he were truly God; nor would they have named any one in his own person Lord, except God the Father ruling over all, and His Son who has received dominion from His Father over all creation, as this passage has it: The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I make Your enemies Your footstool. Here the [Scripture] represents to us the Father addressing the Son; He who gave Him the inheritance of the heathen, and subjected to Him all His enemies. Since, therefore, the Father is truly Lord, and the Son truly Lord, the Holy Spirit has fitly designated them by the title Lord. And again, referring to the destruction of the Sodomites, the Scripture says, Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrhafire and brimstone from the Lord out of heaven. Genesis 19:24 For it here points out that the Son, who had also been talking with Abraham, had received power to judge the Sodomites for their wickedness. And this [text following] does declare the same truth: Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever; the sceptre of Your kingdom is a right sceptre. You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity: therefore God, Your God, has anointed You.For the Spirit designates both [of them] by the name, of God — both Him who is anointed as Son, and Him who does anoint, that is, the Father. And again: God stood in the congregation of the gods, He judges among the gods. He [here] refers to the Father and the Son, and those who have received the adoption; but these are the Church. For she is the synagogue of God, which God— that is, the Son Himself — has gathered by Himself. Of whom He again speaks: The God of gods, the Lord has spoken, and has called the earth.Who is meant by God? He of whom He has said, God shall come openly, our God, and shall not keep silence; that is, the Son, who came manifested to men who said, I have openly appeared to those who seek Me not.Isaiah 65:1 But of what gods [does he speak]? [Of those] to whom He says, I have said, You are gods, and all sons of the Most High. To those, no doubt, who have received the grace of the adoption, by which we cry, Abba Father.Romans 8:15

CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, III.6 (St. Irenaeus)

Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.

www.newadvent.org

 

[Runningman]

Should I quote the verses I quoted before, again? They have not disappeared from the Bible.

Your version isn’t accept by the earth church and there are versions that show this verse was tampered with at some point. Nothing in the Bible says Yeshua is God. Your version is false. He’s the begotten son of God.

 

[Runningman]

The heretic of this thread said St. Irenaeus agrees with him that Jesus Christ is not God?

Really?:

The Holy Ghost, throughout the Old Testament Scriptures, made mention of no other God or Lord, save him who is the true God.
1. Therefore neither would the Lord, nor the Holy Spirit, nor the apostles, have ever named as God, definitely and absolutely, him who was not God, unless he were truly God; nor would they have named any one in his own person Lord, except God the Father ruling over all, and His Son who has received dominion from His Father over all creation, as this passage has it: The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I make Your enemies Your footstool. Here the [Scripture] represents to us the Father addressing the Son; He who gave Him the inheritance of the heathen, and subjected to Him all His enemies. Since, therefore, the Father is truly Lord, and the Son truly Lord, the Holy Spirit has fitly designated them by the title Lord. And again, referring to the destruction of the Sodomites, the Scripture says, Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrhafire and brimstone from the Lord out of heaven. Genesis 19:24 For it here points out that the Son, who had also been talking with Abraham, had received power to judge the Sodomites for their wickedness. And this [text following] does declare the same truth: Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever; the sceptre of Your kingdom is a right sceptre. You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity: therefore God, Your God, has anointed You.For the Spirit designates both [of them] by the name, of God — both Him who is anointed as Son, and Him who does anoint, that is, the Father. And again: God stood in the congregation of the gods, He judges among the gods. He [here] refers to the Father and the Son, and those who have received the adoption; but these are the Church. For she is the synagogue of God, which God— that is, the Son Himself — has gathered by Himself. Of whom He again speaks: The God of gods, the Lord has spoken, and has called the earth.Who is meant by God? He of whom He has said, God shall come openly, our God, and shall not keep silence; that is, the Son, who came manifested to men who said, I have openly appeared to those who seek Me not.Isaiah 65:1 But of what gods [does he speak]? [Of those] to whom He says, I have said, You are gods, and all sons of the Most High. To those, no doubt, who have received the grace of the adoption, by which we cry, Abba Father.Romans 8:15

CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, III.6 (St. Irenaeus)

Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.

www.newadvent.org

Slow down buddy. In context I was referring to John 1:18. He quoted the version that calls Christ the son of God, not the version that calls Christ God. As far as I know he was a Trinitarian, but you would think that him being a Trinitarian he would have loved to quote things that support his views. He didn’t do this with John 1:18.

 

[trophy33]

Your version isn’t accept by the earth church and there are versions that show this verse was tampered with at some point. Nothing in the Bible says Yeshua is God. Your version is false. He’s the begotten son of God.

John 1:18 is one of the best proved verses in the whole Bible. The reading with "theos" (God) is in all important Greek manuscripts.

Your personal preference or opinion is not relevant. The Bible says that Jesus is God. In many places and in many ways.

 

[Runningman]

John 1:18 is one of the best proved verses in the whole Bible. The reading with "theos" (God) is in all important Greek manuscripts.

Your personal preference or opinion is not relevant. The Bible says that Jesus is God. In many places and in many ways.

If that's true then Yeshua is a god with a lowercase g, but it isn't an identifier of deity; Yeshua said so himself. They didn't use capitalization like we do for proper nouns in the Greek either since everything was already capitalized. When it was translated into English, people had to decide what things meant based on their biases, guesses, opinions, etc. John 1:18 is no exception. Of course the NIV and NASB are based on different text bodies. Other versions based on different texts match the Bible's narrative of Yeshua not being God better.

Look at the exchange of words and what Yeshua said in John 10:31-39

31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?”

33The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ’? 35If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.” 39Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand.

Once again, contrary to the accusation against him of claiming to be God, Yeshua said he is the Son of God; there's one of a few different explicit denials of being God by Yeshua.

He went on to explain that to those the word of God came are gods, himself included, because the word of God came to himself too. He didn't make any of it up. Everything God told him he spoke precisely as it was given.

John 12:49-50
49For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. 50And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak.”

 

[trophy33]

If that's true then Yeshua is a god with a lowercase g, but it isn't an identifier of deity; Yeshua said so himself. They didn't use capitalization like we do for proper nouns in the Greek either since everything was already capitalized. When it was translated into English, people had to decide what things meant based on their biases, guesses, opinions, etc. John 1:18 is no exception. Of course the NIV and NASB are based on different text bodies. Other versions based on different texts match the Bible's narrative of Yeshua not being God better.

Look at the exchange of words and what Yeshua said in John 10:31-39

31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?”

33The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ’? 35If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.” 39Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand.

Once again, contrary to the accusation against him of claiming to be God, Yeshua said he is the Son of God; there's one of a few different explicit denials of being God by Yeshua.

He went on to explain that to those the word of God came are gods, himself included, because the word of God came to himself too. He didn't make any of it up. Everything God told him he spoke precisely as it was given.

John 12:49-50
49For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. 50And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak.”

Somebody who created everything that exists is really not just some "god".

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.
He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Col 1:15-17

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.
J 1:1-3

 

[Runningman]

Somebody who created everything that exists is really not just some "god".

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.
He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Col 1:15-17

It refers to creation in the temporal sense. As I already proved earlier, image refers to the outward appearances and such.

Read Hebrews 1:1,2 where it says the ages were created through Christ in these last days. Sometimes versions will say he created the worlds or universe, but look at the Greek word used there. It refers to creation of the ages with God being the prime mover, not Yeshua.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.
J 1:1-3

One would think you would have a vast biblical narrative to support your beliefs, but it’s not there. From cover to cover of the Bible, there’s nothing about Yeshua being God. Nothing just says “Yeshu is Lord God almighty.”

John 1:1 doesn’t support your belief Yeshua is God. For starters it says the word was God, not Yeshua. The one who became flesh is a man. It refers to Christ being manifested through God’s word. Just read 1 John 1 to prove it.

 

[trophy33]

It refers to creation in the temporal sense. As I already proved earlier, image refers to the outward appearances and such.

Read Hebrews 1:1,2 where it says the ages were created through Christ in these last days. Sometimes versions will say he created the worlds or universe, but look at the Greek word used there. It refers to creation of the ages with God being the prime mover, not Yeshua.



One would think you would have a vast biblical narrative to support your beliefs, but it’s not there. From cover to cover of the Bible, there’s nothing about Yeshua being God. Nothing just says “Yeshu is Lord God almighty.”

John 1:1 doesn’t support your belief Yeshua is God. For starters it says the word was God, not Yeshua. The one who became flesh is a man. It refers to Christ being manifested through God’s word. Just read 1 John 1 to prove it.

I have given you like dozen of biblical places saying that Jesus is God. Both explicitly and implicitly.

You just dont like them, so you try to explain them away. However, they are still there, saying literally that He is God.

 

[Runningman]

I have given you like dozen of biblical places saying that Jesus is God. Both explicitly and implicitly.

You just dont like them, so you try to explain them away. However, they are still there, saying literally that He is God.

I explained them all and you still seem to reject what I showed you.

Deuteronomy 4:35
35To you it was shown, that you might know that the Lord Himself is God; there is none other besides Him.

Deuteronomy 4:39
39Therefore know this day, and consider it in your heart, that the Lord Himself is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other.

 

[trophy33]

I explained them all and you still seem to reject what I showed you.

Deuteronomy 4:35
35To you it was shown, that you might know that the Lord Himself is God; there is none other besides Him.

Deuteronomy 4:39
39Therefore know this day, and consider it in your heart, that the Lord Himself is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other.

Your opinions are not explanations.

For example:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.
He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Col 1:15-17

And you just said "It refers to creation in the temporal sense". Did you really hope such weak response will convince somebody?

 

[Lukaris]

The Lord Jesus Christ Who speaks in Revelation 1:18 also spoke the same in Isaiah 48:12-16. While it should be clear in Revelation that He is Creator as is His Father, it is further explained in the passages of Isaiah I have cited. May I also mention that it is clear in the passages of Isaiah that the Holy Spirit is also God.

I remember reading a good book on early Christian doctrines by JND Kelly. Kelly noted that heretical detractors of our understanding of Jesus Christ as our God had a further negative effect of delayed development of better understanding that the Holy Spirit is our God; God: The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Mr Kelly’s book is in depth but his approach is reader friendly with a lot of stuff to explain.

Amazon.com

 

[Runningman]

Your opinions are not explanations.

For example:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.
He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Col 1:15-17

And you just said "It refers to creation in the temporal sense". Did you really hope such weak response will convince somebody?

It isn't an opinion.

The Father is explicitly referred to as God in dozens of places, Christ isn't; hence why he is referred to as the image of God. That's important to note because it refers to his outward appearance, i.e., Christ said he said and did all God told him to do because he isn't God.

Additionally, you should read the context of this passage. It is about the church. All of this happened through the cross, not at the beginning of creation way back when God first spoke.

It's all in the verses you left out.

Colossians 1:17-20
17And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
19For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

 

[ralliann]

Somebody who created everything that exists is really not just some "god".

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.
He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Col 1:15-17

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.
J 1:1-3

There is the doctrine of the trinity, the father , the son, the holy spirit, eternally exitstant. Then there is Christology, concerning the incarnation of the Son. This guy isn't discerning the difference in his interpretations of scripture.

 

[Runningman]

The Lord Jesus Christ Who speaks in Revelation 1:18 also spoke the same in Isaiah 48:12-16. While it should be clear in Revelation that He is Creator as is His Father, it is further explained in the passages of Isaiah I have cited. May I also mention that it is clear in the passages of Isaiah that the Holy Spirit is also God.

I remember reading a good book on early Christian doctrines by JND Kelly. Kelly noted that heretical detractors of our understanding of Jesus Christ as our God had a further negative effect of delayed development of better understanding that the Holy Spirit is our God; God: The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Mr Kelly’s book is in depth but his approach is reader friendly with a lot of stuff to explain.

Amazon.com

If God says He's the "first and last" and then Christ says he's the first and last then this should be something unique to God and not something regular people can have. On this point, among many others, it isn't proof of deity as I will show you.

Matthew 19:30
30But many who are first will be last, and the last first.

As Yeshua proved, people can be first and last as well. It doesn't mean they become God, it's in reference to uniqueness as far as I can tell. God alone is God, and Christ alone is Christ.

 

[trophy33]

The Father is explicitly referred to as God in dozens of places, Christ isn't

Christ is, too. You simply do not like the verses saying that, so you try to take them away or translate them wrongly.

"No one has ever yet seen God. The only begotten God, the One being in the bosom of the Father, He has made Him known."
J 1:18

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being...
...And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. And we beheld His glory, a glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."
J 1

"Theirs [Jews] are the patriarchs, and from them proceeds the human descent of Christ, who is God over all, forever worthy of praise! Amen."
R 9:5

"Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!""
J 20:8

"Who [Jesus], existing in the form of God, did not consider to be equal with God something to be grasped"
Phil 2:6

This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath,
but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
John 5:18

...awaiting the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ
Titus 2:13

And dozens of implicit ones like "I am the first and the last", being called Lord (its a title for God) etc.

There is a difference between "there is no such verse" and "I do not like/accept any of such verses".

 

[Runningman]

Christ is, too. You simply do not like the verses saying that, so you try to take them away or translate them wrongly.

"No one has ever yet seen God. The only begotten God, the One being in the bosom of the Father, He has made Him known."
J 1:18

Other versions reject show what the correct translation is.

John 1:18
18No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being...
...And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. And we beheld His glory, a glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."
J 1

Refers to the word being God, not Christ, and Yeshua being begotten by God. The New Testament says he's a begotten son.

"Theirs [Jews] are the patriarchs, and from them proceeds the human descent of Christ, who is God over all, forever worthy of praise! Amen."
R 9:5

No punctuation in the Greek, therefore this is the correct translation:

R 9:5
5 to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen.

"Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!""
J 20:8

It doesn't say "You are God"

"Who [Jesus], existing in the form of God, did not consider to be equal with God something to be grasped"
Phil 2:6

The word form refers to outward appearance.

This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath,
but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
John 5:18

That was their accusation. Contrary to those accusations, Yeshua referred to himself as a man and said that God is the one he heard from, not himself.

John 8:40
40But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.

...awaiting the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ
Titus 2:13

Refers two persons: Great God and Savior Christ.

The context is about their appearing and when they appear they appear as two different and distinct beings:

1 Thessalonians 4
14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

And dozens of implicit ones like "I am the first and the last", being called Lord (its a title for God) etc.

You have nothing.

There is a difference between "there is no such verse" and "I do not like/accept any of such verses".

Ditto.

 

[Runningman]

Christ is, too. You simply do not like the verses saying that, so you try to take them away or translate them wrongly.

"No one has ever yet seen God. The only begotten God, the One being in the bosom of the Father, He has made Him known."
J 1:18

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being...
...And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. And we beheld His glory, a glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."
J 1

"Theirs [Jews] are the patriarchs, and from them proceeds the human descent of Christ, who is God over all, forever worthy of praise! Amen."
R 9:5

"Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!""
J 20:8

"Who [Jesus], existing in the form of God, did not consider to be equal with God something to be grasped"
Phil 2:6

This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath,
but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
John 5:18

...awaiting the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ
Titus 2:13

And dozens of implicit ones like "I am the first and the last", being called Lord (its a title for God) etc.

There is a difference between "there is no such verse" and "I do not like/accept any of such verses".

My turn. See if you can explain these. Here's the very short list.

John 17:3
3And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

1 Corinthians 15:27
27For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.

John 5:30
30I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

1 Timothy 2:5-6
5For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

John 20:17
17Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’ ”

Ephesians 1:3, 15-17
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
15Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him,

Mark 12:29
29Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.