I have.
That is more an issue with Christian sentimentality and their lack of answers then anything else.
Easy to say when public discourse is barred.
Upvote
0
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
I also believe that Christ will not turn away anyone who humbly and honestly is seeking him. I have yet to see anyone deny this.
I think they shut down the apologetics forum because there was that much more mocking than inquiry, and pretty much all the big topics tend to just be repeated over and over in cycles, and nothing (or very little) new was being discussed.
As a Christian (and another former atheist) I have no qualms about rational inquiry. I quite enjoy it. In the words of Salida, Bring it on.
Did you stop? How did you decide you'd searched enough? I'm not being glib, at allI have.
GA had absolutely nothing to do with open and honest discourse. It had become a metaforum where people seemingly had free rein to mock Christianity and our beliefs with as much vitriol and cruelty as they wished. The treatment of Christians who attempted to go in there with kindness was unacceptable. I saw gentle people turn hard and defensive because of GA.That is more an issue with Christian sentimentality and their lack of answers then anything else.
Easy to say when public discourse is barred.
Did you stop? How did you decide you'd searched enough? I'm not being glib, at all
I don't want to demean the experiences of your friend, so am wary of making any claims of any sort, but I do know that Christianity isn't something you can just drop because you become disillusioned, or because Christians behave badly.I was raised in a Catholic family and went to a Sunday school, I realized early on that Christianity was impossible (among other things) . But I was referring to my friend, not me. My friend was the son of a crack mom, I grew up with him and it would be easy to say that he made bad choices but really in his environment he didn't have many. He ended up a drug dealer, starting in junior high. He did try to change his life. I even remember him dragging me to a church youth program, they kicked him out for something lame (don't remember what). Later in life he "found" Jesus a few times but always ended up disillusioned and getting back into drugs, crashing harder every time. I lost contact with him a few years back so I dunno how he is doing now.
The point is that he DID try to become a Christian at varies points in his life, even as a kid, but his prayers were never answered.
Am praying for your friend, that he get in touch somehowGK Chesterton said:Christianity has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult and left untried.
I don't want to demean the experiences of your friend, so am wary of making any claims of any sort, but I do know that Christianity isn't something you can just drop because you become disillusioned, or because Christians behave badly.
Christianity is about picking up your cross, and following Him, despite the storm. That's how faith grows. If your friend turned away from Christ because he grew disillusioned, he denied Christ the opportunity to minister to him when his burden was great.
It reminds me of a little known saying by an awesome Christian:
Am praying for your friend, that he get in touch somehowI know that won't mean anything to you, but prayer is immensely powerful... it took my doggedly persisting with Christianity to discover that.
Why do you see it as passive?What a passive way to say that "he didn't try hard enough", typical Christian response.
But prayer doesn't work that way... God isn't a sugar-daddy that gives us what we want when we want. It's hard standing in faith, but if we cling onto Him and stand, He never ever lets His people down. Our having to wait longer than we'd like to doesn't negate Him in any way.My friends UNANSWERED prayers are what made him fall deeper.
Would you believe that if you'd witnessed physical healings, or experienced truly miraculous answers to prayer? Whether you believe others have is irrelevant for the time being - if you had experienced those things, would you still believe prayer is powerless and, even worse, actually "dangerous"?No, prayer is a placebo, and is a dangerous substitute for real help.
What a passive way to say that "he didn't try hard enough", typical Christian response.
My friends UNANSWERED prayers are what made him fall deeper. No, prayer is a placebo, and is a dangerous substitute for real help.
I have no personal issues with inquiry. I used to be an atheist, I only ended up a Christian through very serious inquiry.
However, here's the problem we most often come across: There is many a non-Christian who does not wish to "inquire" for any purpose other than to create issues. Flaming, baiting, mocking, belittling, and basically everything that falls under the "flaming" rule of CF: This is a very common trend in the so-called "inquiry" phase that some people embark on around Christian Forums.
So for me, truthful honest inquiry is very welcome. When I was an atheist, I sought out God truthfully and lo and behold I found Him. I went with an open heard and an open mind to learning and discovering and re-discovering things I thought I already had the answers to.
Many people enter the so-called "inquiry" process with a closed mind, at best, at worst a negative attitude full of hatred, malicious intent, and a "I'll prove you wrong" attitude. None of this will get a person anywhere, and these traits are not indicative of anyone seeking answers. A person who comes into an inquiry with a stand-offish nature only serves to debate for the sole purpose of debate; not, I imagine, for the purpose of truly seeking answers which may be different from what he or she thought the answer woudl be. This is the key. In an inquiry process, you must be open to finding answers you never thought were even possible. If you are set in your ways, your mind will absorb very little new information.
Inquiry, as defined by wikipedia: Inquiry or enquiry[1] is any process that has the aim of augmenting knowledge, resolving doubt, or solving a problem.
You cannot solve a problem if you start out by saying "There is no solution", you cannot resolve doubt by saying "I will always doubt, this will never change", and you cannot augment knowledge by saying "I am right, and you are wrong, that is simply the way it is" -- however, each of these attitudes? Is almost always present in your average "inquiry" that I see on a regular basis. When the beginning of the process is flawed, nothing but rotten fruit is produced, instead of good fruit.
Anyway, that's my take on things
Reminder:
I will remind you all at this time, that ranting/raving/debating/complaining about the rules or staff actions in public is prohibited (no one has done that yet, just making sure you remember) and discussion of previous staff actions such as the closure of GA will be carefully watched, because in the past these conversations have proven to get quite off-topic. If you have questions about the closure of GA, please seek counsel from a staff member in private. I must request at this time that any specific discussion of the closure of GA should not to continue on in public.
I will give this thread the benefit of the doubt, and assume you can head this warning. Please stick to the actual topic at hand, which is a very valid one: "I've found that Christians both here and in person fear inquiry into their beliefs. Why is this?"
But prayer doesn't work that way... God isn't a sugar-daddy that gives us what we want when we want.
It's hard standing in faith, but if we cling onto Him and stand, He never ever lets His people down. Our having to wait longer than we'd like to doesn't negate Him in any way.
Probably because that's what the Bible implies.God isn't a magic genie who grants wishes... why do so many expect Him to be that way?
This is a red herring because physical healing through prayer has been PROVEN false through studies and the Christian definition of "miracle" seems to be a slightly unlikely event.Would you believe that if you'd witnessed physical healings, or experienced truly miraculous answers to prayer? Whether you believe others have is irrelevant for the time being - if you had experienced those things, would you still believe prayer is powerless and, even worse, actually "dangerous"?
DP, if your friend didn't even know what it is he needed, how can you be angry that God didn't provide? Equally, how do you know God didn't?The Bible is clear that God will deliver what we NEED to those who ask. Christians usually point to that and say you didn't need it if God didn't deliver, which is fine. The problem is that my friend needed something, I dunno what, I doubt he knew what but SOMETHING, and God didn't deliver.
Honestly, as long as it takes. I know that's not a sentiment the world understands nowadays when we want what we want and we want it now; where even news reports are 60 seconds to satisfy our non-existent attention span... the idea of having to wait patiently is anathema and, yes, opens us up to charges of passivity.How long should have he waited?
From the people there if nothing else. Listen, when I became a Christian, there were no fireworks. I really thought there would be because my conversion was so dramatic in terms of where I'd been before (militant atheist) but, nothing. And my first church was cruel, and cold and made me feel like I was nothing. But Christianity isn't about feeling something... it's about truly believing that Christ is the Saviour, and following Him even when we feel spiritually dry, or empty, because we know He is God.At one point he was going to church every Sunday for two years in hopes of becoming a Christian. Shouldn't he have gotten some kind of spiritual encouragement rather then nothing?
Only when Benny Hinn misinterprets it.Probably because that's what the Bible implies.
Really? Miracles have been proven empirically false across the board?This is a red herring because physical healing through prayer has been PROVEN false through studies and the Christian definition of "miracle" seems to be a slightly unlikely event.
How do you know He hasn't experienced something amazing since you last spoke?There were no miracles for my friend.
DP, if your friend didn't even know what it is he needed, how can you be angry that God didn't provide?
Equally, how do you know God didn't?
Honestly, as long as it takes. I know that's not a sentiment the world understands nowadays when we want what we want and we want it now; where even news reports are 60 seconds to satisfy our non-existent attention span... the idea of having to wait patiently is anathema and, yes, opens us up to charges of passivity.
If I hear thunder and see lightning, I know the rain is on its way. It will arrive in its own time, but it will arrive.
From the people there if nothing else. Listen, when I became a Christian, there were no fireworks. I really thought there would be because my conversion was so dramatic in terms of where I'd been before (militant atheist) but, nothing. And my first church was cruel, and cold and made me feel like I was nothing. But Christianity isn't about feeling something... it's about truly believing that Christ is the Saviour, and following Him even when we feel spiritually dry, or empty, because we know He is God.
People seem to feel Christianity ought to make life easier and happyclappywonderful - where does it say that? Christianity is hard, and many of us seriously struggle with it... but you persist, because there's simply no other viable option.
Once you know the truth, how can you deny it?
Only when Benny Hinn misinterprets it.
Really? Miracles have been proven empirically false across the board?
How do you know He hasn't experienced something amazing since you last spoke?
But, again, we don't follow God for what He can give us, and do for us. He's already given us salvation;
He isn't a cosmic vending machine.
Christianity is following Him because He is the Way, the Truth and the Life.
Not at allAre you saying that God didn't know what my friend needed?
Again, God doesn't work like that.Because nothing ever changed.
Of course he did. We choose to wait, and we choose when we walk away.Life was happening while in waiting and no, he did not have forever to wait.
Am disappointed that you've resorted to willfully misrepresenting what am saying. Please don't do that again.So if you close your eyes and believe hard enough then you will trick yourself into believing for real. Nice to see your faith is a nice name for self disillusion.
They're wrong.Christianity is sold as a snake oil cure all by televangelists all the time.
Fair enoughYou don't know the truth, you simply BELIEVE you know the truth.
Not the case, am sorry. Discussion stops being productive when statements like that are made. You can't prove that statement any more than I can disprove it. But the notion that all miracles have been proven false is nonsensical.On a case by case basis? Yes.
When you talk about your friend, are you speaking about yourself? Honestly.Because he would have contacted me if he had.
Again with the misrepresentation. Do you need to believe that that's what I've said?Nice way to say that God does nothing.
This is also relating to a general trend among Christians to cut off discussion.
Discussion stops being productive when statements like that are made. You can't prove that statement any more than I can disprove it. But the notion that all miracles have been proven false is nonsensical.
Millions of Christians have witnessed healings - including me. You don't have to believe them, but your denial of them has no bearing on whether they happened or not.
When you talk about your friend, are you speaking about yourself? Honestly.
Again with the misrepresentation. Do you need to believe that that's what I've said?
And there are millions that haven't been "looked into"... there are verified cases of people being resurrected from the dead, cancer being healed, limbs being healed and re-growing - why are you so desperate to disbelieve?Not all "miracles" have been proven false but those that have been looked into have.
Magical thinking? DP, am never going to trade insults with you or give you something to push back against, no matter how snarky you are or how many pejoratives you assign.I dunno what you believe you saw but when you believe in magical thinking it would be easy to believe in a miracle.
Che?I'm talking about someone I went to grade school with, we were inseparable up to the point he started getting into drugs. BTW, don't ever think you know me because you know nothing about me.
Not in the least."God doesn't work that way". It's the same thing as him doing nothing.
Funny how it's never God's fault that people who seek him out don't quite make it. You've been making up excuses for God this whole time. My friend didn't try hard enough, God doesn't answer prayers like that, he should have waited, etc., etc.,
"I also believe that Christ will not turn away anyone who humbly and honestly is seeking him. I have yet to see anyone deny this."
My friend DID seek, at varies points in his life, and found nothing.
And there are millions that haven't been "looked into"... there are verified cases of people being resurrected from the dead, cancer being healed, limbs being healed and re-growing - why are you so desperate to disbelieve?
Am honestly sorry if that isn't good enough, but it is what it is. I saw another question here where someone asked a question and said "And don't say it's free will!" But if the answer is free will, the answer is free will.
God is Almighty beyond our comprehension, and He doesn't come running when we snap our fingers. That's just how it is, whether we like it or not.
Most probably would, and perhaps they're better apologists and debaters and Christians than I am. But I don't think it wouldn't prove anything. People who want not to belive will never be persuaded because of miracles or apologetics - it will take a direct encounter with Christ; that's between you and Him alone.I find it amusing how you persist in saying there exist "verified" miracles and then continue to speak only in generalities. Most people would try to show their "verified" miracle at this point.
Why would I need to give Him an out? I've never understood that line of reason. What "obligation" does He have?The answer is whatever gets God out any kind of obligation.
Because He doesn't come running when we snap our fingers He's as good as dead? Surely you see how illogical that statement is.Then God as good as dead.
Most probably would, and perhaps they're better apologists and debaters and Christians than I am. But I don't think it wouldn't prove anything. People who want not to belive will never be persuaded because of miracles or apologetics
it will take a direct encounter with Christ; that's between you and Him alone.
Why would I need to give Him an out? I've never understood that line of reason. What "obligation" does He have?
Because He doesn't come running when we snap our fingers He's as good as dead? Surely you see how illogical that statement is.
This may well be the case sometimes, yes. But what of those who have witnessed physical healings? There in front of us, seen it with our own eyes - not talked about on God TV, or told about, but actually seen.And people who DO want to believe will latch on to anything to validate their belief, no matter how outlandish.
But, can I ask you a question? Do you know that even now, as you read this, He wants you to get to know Him? I know it can often seem like some abstract idea, but here and now, He is a real Being and He's waiting for you and wanting you to know Him.I wont hold my breath.
No, I understand that, but why would He be obligated? He doesn't need for us to worship Him. He doesn't need us at all. So why would He need an out?Probably the stuff that God says he would do in the Bible.
So said Nietzsche. But there's that famous piece of graffiti:No, because God being dead changes nothing.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?