Why does it say that Jesus “learned obedience”?

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Jesus prayed. Why did He pray. What is the praying in Hebrews 5:7-8 related to?

WONDERFUL !!!!!

JESUS PRAYED !!! --- no one ever said He did not pray.

The false teacher CLAIMS that JESUS asked something Jesus did not ask.
(the same false teacher who teaches a false gospel concerning the BLOOD OF JESUS)

Jesus and King David PRAISED THE FATHER for what they KNEW THE FATHER ALREADY DID, and for what the FATHER WOULD DO (OR NOT DO)....

There is a great difference in PRAISING THE FATHER
and ASKING THE FATHER for something.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

.....

 

[redleghunter]

WHERE is it written that Jesus asks the Father to not be left in the grave, to be resurrected , (as if Jesus did not already know the plan) ?

Quoted here:

Quite plausible for learning purposes.

However, the OP refers to Hebrews 5 and related to suffering:

Hebrews 5: NASB

7In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, 10being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

And here;

I would like to get this thread back on topic. The actual reference to obedience addressed in the OP regards the expository in Hebrews 5.

Hebrews 5:NASB
7In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, 10being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

And here again:

I’ll entertain this nonsense for the third and last time.

First you claimed John MacArthur in his expository said Jesus did not know He would be resurrected. I showed that claim to be false. JM does not make that claim.




Of course what he refers to is the context of the text discussed in Hebrews 5:



Why did Jesus offer up both prayers and supplications? The text of Hebrews 5:7 tells us...to save Him from death. And the text says Jesus was heard.

This has nothing to do with Jesus knowing or not knowing. The text in question is not addressing this. We know from the Gospel accounts Jesus knew he would die and rise again.

When I pointed this out to you, you then said Jesus did not ask. What do you think prayers and supplications are?

Or is your point that Jesus knew so He did not ask? Well the text quoted in Hebrews 5:7 said Jesus did ask. He prayed and was answered. So now the issue you have is not with what I quoted from JM, but with the author of Hebrews.

You did not like that I pointed out twice you were barking at me for no reason by showing you the actual text. But then in even more vitriol come back again and make the same claims which I refute now 4 times.

So perhaps further examination is required to explain this. Jesus told us our Heavenly Father will give us what we need to survive. He told us not to worry about food and clothing. But then Jesus told us to pray to our Heavenly Father for our daily bread. Why did Jesus tell us not to worry about these things but also tell us to daily ask for them?

The same answer we get in knowing Jesus knew He would be raised but Hebrews 5:7 tells us He still prayed.

One can either accept this as a paradox or that in our case praying for our daily bread even though we know God provides reminds us of Who provides and sustains us.

And here again:

Hebrews 5: NASB

7In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, 10being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.


Jesus offered prayers and supplications.

With loud crying and shouting.

To the One able to save Him from death.

And He was heard.

Because of His Piety.

Perhaps broken down like this you could answer the following questions:

1. Why Did Jesus pray?

2. Why was Jesus crying and shouting?

3. Why was Jesus doing #1 and #2 to the One able to save Him from death?

4. Based on #1, #2, and #3 what was exactly heard?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Quoted here:

And here;

And here again:
And here again:

FINALLY (the last one) (the previous ones were no quotes, just references)

Now we can see all together >>>> (in blue, 'Scripture', is the truth)

And here again:

Hebrews 5: NASB

7In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, 10being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.


Jesus offered prayers and supplications.

With loud crying and shouting.

To the One able to save Him from death.

And He was heard.

Because of His Piety.

Perhaps broken down like this you could answer the following questions:

1. Why Did Jesus pray?

2. Why was Jesus crying and shouting?

3. Why was Jesus doing #1 and #2 to the One able to save Him from death?

4. Based on #1, #2, and #3 what was exactly heard?

None of the other questions were in question nor challenged, nor pertain to the false teaching.
The only false teaching challenged was from jm, in the OP >>>

[/QUOTE]

Jesus asked to be saved from remaining in death, i.e., to be resurrected (Ps. 16: 9, 10).

Nowhere in the Scripture, nor in this post, in the Scripture quoted by the OP (blue),

nor anywhere in Scripture,

does Jesus ask "to be saved from remaining in death, i.e. to be resurrected".

THAT is just the tip of the iceberg , btw, but here in this thread/op, it is the ONLY THING that was challenged, and remains so.

 

[redleghunter]

FINALLY (the last one) (the previous ones were no quotes, just references)

Now we can see all together (in blue, 'Scripture', is the truth) None of the other questions were in question nor challenged, nor pertain to the false teaching.
The only false teaching challenged was from jm, in the OP


Nowhere in the Scripture, nor in this post, in the Scripture quoted by the OP (blue),

nor anywhere in Scripture,

does Jesus ask "to be saved from remaining in death, i.e. to be resurrected".

THAT is just the tip of the iceberg , btw, but here in this thread/op, it is the ONLY THING that was challenged, and remains so.

Been asking you to address the text for pages.

Will you address this now because you have not.


Hebrews 5: NASB

7In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, 10being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.


Jesus offered prayers and supplications.

With loud crying and shouting.

To the One able to save Him from death.

And He was heard.

Because of His Piety.

Perhaps broken down like this you could answer the following questions:

1. Why Did Jesus pray?

2. Why was Jesus crying and shouting?

3. Why was Jesus doing #1 and #2 to the One able to save Him from death?

4. Based on #1, #2, and #3 what was exactly heard?

 

[Swan7]

WHERE is it written that Jesus asks the Father to not be left in the grave, to be resurrected , (as if Jesus did not already know the plan) ?

This is a prophecy: Psalm 16:9-10. Much like other Psalms.

Jesus did pray for the cup to be taken away, though not as He willed: Matthew 26:39

I think you misunderstand, so maybe this will clear up some misunderstandings with what the Bible shows and tells. Remember that we have to take the entire Word of God as if it's one book and yet in 3 parts. Much like the concept of the Trinity (and that is also Biblical).

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

1. Why Did Jesus pray?

"The expression, τὸν δυνάμενον σώζειν αὐτὸν ἐκ θανάτου, corresponding with πάντα δυνατά σοι of Mark 14:36, confirms the view that the "cup" which he prayed might pass from him, was the death before him, and that the purport of his prayer was, not to be raised from death after undergoing it, but to be saved from undergoing it."

"the prayer expressed, not the deliberate desire of his Divine will, but only the inevitable shrinking of the human will from such an ordeal as was before him. As man, he experienced this shrinking to the full, and as man he craved deliverance, though with entire submission to the will of the Father. His human will did not oppose itself to the Divine will: it conformed itself in the end entirely to it; but this according to the necessary conditions of humanity, through the power of prayer. Had it not been so with him, his participation in human nature would have been incomplete; he would not have been such as to be "touched with a feeling of our infirmities, being in all things tempted like as we are;" nor would he have stood forth for ever as the great Example to mankind. St. John, who so deeply enters into and interprets the mind of Christ, records an utterance before the agony which anticipates its meaning (John 12): "The hour is come" (ver. 23); and then (ver. 27), "Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour [cf. σώζειν ἐκ θανάτου]; but for this cause came I unto this hour. Father, glorify thy Name." The "hour" was that of the drinking of the cup (cf. Mark 14:35, "And prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him"). "Father, save me from this hour" was the human craving of the agony; but still, "Father, glorify thy Name" was the essence of the prayer; and perfect submission to the Divine will was the outcome of it, after this troubling of his human soul. The mystery surrounding the whole subject of the Divine and human in Christ remains still."

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

This is a prophecy: Psalm 16:9-10. Much like other Psalms.
........

No. The prophecy is true. It does not say that Jesus asked "to not be left in the grave" (i.e. to be resurrected).
See the previous post to this one.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Been asking you to address the text for pages.

No, you kept sidetracking/ avoiding quoting the words which show that Jesus did not ask what you or jm said that you posted in the OP.
Now that the words have been posted, for all to see, I did reply to the 1st question. THe others I will reply to as I am able to, whether tonight, or later.

 

[Swan7]

No. The prophecy is true. It does not say that Jesus asked "to not be left in the grave" (i.e. to be resurrected).
See the previous post to this one.

Yes, prophecy is true. Hebrews 5:7-10, events of the Word of God are also true.
Not sure what else to tell you, lol. I believe the Word of God.

 

[redleghunter]

"The expression, τὸν δυνάμενον σώζειν αὐτὸν ἐκ θανάτου, corresponding with πάντα δυνατά σοι of Mark 14:36, confirms the view that the "cup" which he prayed might pass from him, was the death before him, and that the purport of his prayer was, not to be raised from death after undergoing it, but to be saved from undergoing it."

"the prayer expressed, not the deliberate desire of his Divine will, but only the inevitable shrinking of the human will from such an ordeal as was before him. As man, he experienced this shrinking to the full, and as man he craved deliverance, though with entire submission to the will of the Father. His human will did not oppose itself to the Divine will: it conformed itself in the end entirely to it; but this according to the necessary conditions of humanity, through the power of prayer. Had it not been so with him, his participation in human nature would have been incomplete; he would not have been such as to be "touched with a feeling of our infirmities, being in all things tempted like as we are;" nor would he have stood forth for ever as the great Example to mankind. St. John, who so deeply enters into and interprets the mind of Christ, records an utterance before the agony which anticipates its meaning (John 12): "The hour is come" (ver. 23); and then (ver. 27), "Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour [cf. σώζειν ἐκ θανάτου]; but for this cause came I unto this hour. Father, glorify thy Name." The "hour" was that of the drinking of the cup (cf. Mark 14:35, "And prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him"). "Father, save me from this hour" was the human craving of the agony; but still, "Father, glorify thy Name" was the essence of the prayer; and perfect submission to the Divine will was the outcome of it, after this troubling of his human soul. The mystery surrounding the whole subject of the Divine and human in Christ remains still."

This is a great commentary of Mark 14:36, but we are discussing Hebrews 6:7-8.

If you want to address the actual text of the OP this will help:

Hebrews 5: NASB

7In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, 10being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.


Jesus offered prayers and supplications.

With loud crying and shouting.

To the One able to save Him from death.

And He was heard.

Because of His Piety.

Perhaps broken down like this you could answer the following questions:

1. Why Did Jesus pray?

2. Why was Jesus crying and shouting?

3. Why was Jesus doing #1 and #2 to the One able to save Him from death?

4. Based on #1, #2, and #3 what was exactly heard?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yes, prophecy is true. Hebrews 5:7-10, events of the Word of God are also true.
Not sure what else to tell you, lol. I believe the Word of God.

Hebrews what ? haha, (sorry, tired and giddy and joyful)

Prophecy is true. Every word of God is true. The false teaching about it is false. That's what is being revealed this week.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

That said nothing about His learning things and or doing miracles before His baptism vs. after His baptism. You must have read that into my statement.

Jesus never stopped learning and growing up until the moment of His dismissing His Spirit.

Hopefully we, like Him and His disciples and Apostles, will continue to grow even after receiving the Spirit in power for ministry - right up until we go home - (assuming of course that one subscribes to that doctrine and does receive the Spirit in that way after being regenerated and justified as many don't).

I believe that in any Christian life...once we are born again we go on to maturity to the level of maturity God grants each unique individual and we are granted "the mind of Christ" as per I Corinthians. But, Christ was different...being true God and True man...He knew what He must do and that He would not shrink back.
John 16:30:
Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God.”
Hebrews 10:34-39:
Indeed, you also sympathized with those in prison, and when your possessions were seized, you accepted it with joy, because you knew that you yourselves had a better and lasting possession. So do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. Certainly you need patient endurance so that, after you do God’s will, you may receive what was promised. For in just a little while:
The one who is coming will come and will not delay.
And my righteous one will live by faith,
but if he shrinks back,
my soul takes no pleasure in him.
Now we are not part of those who shrink back, resulting in destruction, but of those who have faith, resulting in the soul’s salvation.
Luke 12:49-50:
“I came to throw fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already ignited. But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is finished!

He knew what He had to accomplish on the earth...once He was old enough though still a child (per Isaiah) for His work had already been accomplished since the beginning of the world (per says Revelation).

 

[Swan7]

Hebrews what ? haha, (sorry, tired and giddy and joyful)

Prophecy is true. Every word of God is true. The false teaching about it is false. That's what is being revealed this week.

Be careful, God does not want us to be enemies of one another, for the body of Christ does not fight against itself.

I do not understand you or why you constantly evade some passages in the Bible.. but that is between you and God. Listen to the Word of God: 2 Timothy 2:14

 

[Eloy Craft]

I'd like to know if there is a question in there or not...?

It does not mean that He had not been always doing the Father's will up to that point, just that, at that particular moment, if but for a moment, knowing what He was about to face and go through, seeing it all, etc, He might have been tempted, if only for a moment, to turn away from it/that, or doing that (The Father's will), if only for a moment in that moment, but He did not, etc, and did not ever, etc...

That's why I wanted to know if there was a question in there or not...?

God Bless!

Hi, I'm thinking about learning as a process of knowing what was previously unknown. Jesus is perfectly obedient but obedience unto death was previously unknown. That is the kind of knowing that Adam and Eve lacked in regards to evil before the fall.

Thank you for asking. Peace.

 

[Neogaia777]

Hi, I'm thinking about learning as a process of knowing what was previously unknown. Jesus is perfectly obedient but obedience unto death was previously unknown. That is the kind of knowing that Adam and Eve lacked in regards to evil before the fall.

Thank you for asking. Peace.

Previously unknown to whom...?

And your most welcome.

As for Adam and Eve, might want to check out this thread going here maybe:

What did Adam and Eve not know?

In short they actually knew more than a lot of us do today, just not about the knowing of the difference between good and evil... (the thread link should help with that part...?)

God Bless!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Be careful, God does not want us to be enemies of one another, for the body of Christ does not fight against itself.

I do not understand you or why you constantly evade some passages in the Bible.. but that is between you and God. Listen to the Word of God: 2 Timothy 2:14

That you don't understand is understandable. Don't worry. I don't evade some passages in the Bible. And no, it is not between me and God, nor is it between anyone else and God - it is for all Ekklesia, for everyone set apart by Him, for Him, in Him. The number of those on the narrow road to life are said to by how many? (by Jesus Himself)
vs the number of false prophets and false teachers, how many of them? (according to Jesus) .... The false teacher/teaching being exposed is exactly what many others have done in line with all Scripture, and for many years. Why does anyone follow a false teacher ? < shrugs > What , again, does Jesus say ? Many false teachers, with multitudes following them. Few find the narrow road to life. Everyone was once under the sway of the prince of the power of the air, along with the whole world - sons of disobedience, even the Ekklesia - those now saved were until they were saved. Who are enemies of the cross of Christ ? The false teachers. Not enemies of one another in the body of Christ, no. Are we supposed to take part in the deeds/teachings of darkness ? I think you would agree no. Let everything be brought out in the light - here a simple false teaching has led to a lot of hoopla. Why? < shrugs > I don't know why. "a simple false teaching" that caused me to look up 'why' or what the false teacher had been exposed for - a good reminder and warning! - I forgot the false gospel message about the blood of Jesus that is promoted by the false teacher(s), and this reminded me of it - a serious thing false gospels. (what is written in Scripture about false gospels and those who bring them?) ...

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

This is a great commentary of Mark 14:36, but we are discussing Hebrews 6:7-8.

IS Mark truth, or error ?

You sidetracked the discussion by asking for an explanation of some things , instead of
proving the OP quote of jm is right or admitting it is wrong. Since it is wrong, as was proven wrong by Mark 14 as well as other Scripture, no sidetracking should be done - the commentary was / is / one of many explaining the error , not of jm per se, but a fairly common error of accepting one false teaching even though it violates Scripture .... instead of "let Scripture explain Scripture" ... in other words, Mark 14 is true, and is in perfect Harmony with Hebrews, Psalms, John, Luke, Matthew, see? IN HARMONY with all Scripture. Not like the false teaching. Even though it seem subtle (or is subtle), it is a grave error. and is propagated by those who don't think all Scripture must be in Harmony. Mark is truth - dare anyone deny this? Hebrews is truth - dare anyone deny this ? Obviously no. THey with all Scripture are truth. And they with all Scripture do not contradict each other. Rather they are in Harmony, NOT contradicting any Scripture.

Such a long explanation , it seems, 'ought not' to be necessary. The error is a simple one. I started simply - and would like it to remain simple, AND clear. Namely this- Jesus did not ask to not be left in the grave:
=====================================from earlier:
"yeshuaslavejeff said: ↑
WHERE is it written that Jesus asks the Father to not be left in the grave, to be resurrected , (as if Jesus did not already know the plan) ?
Quoted here:...."
---------------------------------------------------------------
Not one of the quotes, quoted here, or anywhere, shows ever that Jesus asked to not be left in the grave. He had other prayers, other requests, that were heard, of course.
Mixing them up though is not a good idea. In the case of any false teacher who teaches a false gospel, it may be more important to "make waves", lest more are deceived, eh? Or does Jesus say to leave the false gospel alone too ? NO!
Enough has been revealed to know what is right and true. If anyone wants to continue believing an error, in error, that is there freedom to do so.

 

[Hawkins]

Jesus is 100% God and 100%. To be so, He needs to submit (thus obedient) to God the Father such that He's God but as a prophet He only knows what God the Father wants Him to know (in His stay on earth), till the government will be put on His shoulder as prophesied by Isaiah.

He needs to pray, He needs to fast the same way as all the prophets should in order to stay with God as close as possible. His fear is a human weakness but at the same time it's godly. God cannot be harmed physically, His fear could be from the perspectives of both God and man. As man He needs to face the most cruel crucifixion. But I believe that something else can be more scary to a man (who has fear as a human nature) who is a God. God can be harmed by insults. That's why insulting the Holy Spirit is a death sin of all sins. However it is stated clearly that you can insult Jesus, which can be forgiven. For the same reason, God never left His true name to any humans. The name He gave the Jews is "I am who I am". By the book of Revelation, Jesus/God will give their true names to only the saved (the righteous). God can be harmed by human (sinners) insults, and has zero tolerance on it. Humans actually inherited the same nature, they duel with life when insulted. This however happened only in history before humans lost that sense completely in a modern society where you may have to swallow insults as a survival skill.

That said, what Jesus has to face the receiving of human insults from the day He's crucified till the end of earth (mostly invoked by His enemy Satan through the captive/enslaved humans). What accounted for the atonement is that as a man He's killed by the most cruel crucifixion, and as God He has to swallow human insults onto His very name Jesus Christ. As a human prophet He needs to stay with God the same way as others by praying and fast, as God He needs to learn to be obedient such that He can totally submit to God the Father and God the Holy Spirit to know only what He should know as a man and prophet but not as an omniscient God. God cannot be harmed physically, but He's harmed by bearing with human sins (He however promised Noah that He will bear with it till the end of days). He's harmed more by accepting human insults from the point of His crucifixion till the end of this earth.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

His fear is a human weakness but at the same time it's godly.

I don't know that any such fear is "godly", but His human fear such as it was was recognized in Scripture, and there is a reference to that I'll try to find in a little while as it tells why He Prayed to the Father, and what for, and what the answer was.