Why does it say that Jesus “learned obedience”?

[the last child]

Jesus (unlike fallen men) was never spiritually dead and in need of regeneration. He possessed the Holy Spirit from His mother's womb.

He received the Holy Spirit at His baptism for power to minister when the time was right.

We who possess the Spirit from the moment of our new birth must also receive Him in power for ministry when the time comes.

The disciples are our example of that. They were breathed on and obviously received the Holy Spirit in some sense before Pentecost. But they were told to tarry in Jerusalem until the Holy Spirit came upon them in power for ministry at Pentecost.

We probably don't want to get into Pentecostal teachings here and now. But obviously the receptions of the Holy Spirit shown to us in the Book of Acts were not people being "born again". People don't get born again and sealed by the Holy Spirit for salvation by tarrying for Him or through water baptism.

By the way - the Holy Spirit is infinite and omnipresent. Any reference to Him coming upon people at select times (whether it be Jesus or His disciples) has to do with relational changes and not to actual spacial movements by Him.

I never claimed that Jesus did miracles before His ministry started in the full power of the Spirit - unless you count overcoming sin and living a perfect life a miracle (I suppose it is).

Well then I misunderstood what u wrote. My apologies. I actually did not intend to imply that He was spiritually dead. I had always thought that the spiritually dead were those who had sinned, and since He never sinned, He couldn’t have been spiritually dead. As for the Holy Spirit, I am well aware that He is omnipresent technically. I wasn’t trying to argue semantics at the molecular level. I was merely pointing out the more obvious factors of empowered miracles. And you seemed to imply that He had learned and performed miracles when u said, “That goes, IMO, for learning about God and what He cares about, learning and practicing obedience, and doing miracles such as laying hands of the sick, casting out demons and even walking on water”

 

[Swan7]

I see exactly what the OP is saying here, it's all Biblical and straight from the wisdom of God.

 

[redleghunter]

I gave you a post with over 20 translations, NONE OF WHICH was a prayer ASKING the Father what that false teachers claims.
Not one of the translations available shows Jesus asking what the false teacher claims.

If you still think Jesus asked as the false teacher claims, QUOTE THE PARAGRAPH in SCRIPTURE where Jesus asks as the false teacher claims.

I’ll entertain this nonsense for the third and last time.

First you claimed John MacArthur in his expository said Jesus did not know He would be resurrected. I showed that claim to be false. JM does not make that claim.

Jesus asked to be saved from remaining in death, i.e., to be resurrected (Ps. 16: 9, 10). “Though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered” (v. 8).

Of course what he refers to is the context of the text discussed in Hebrews 5:

7In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, 10being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

Why did Jesus offer up both prayers and supplications? The text of Hebrews 5:7 tells us...to save Him from death. And the text says Jesus was heard.

This has nothing to do with Jesus knowing or not knowing. The text in question is not addressing this. We know from the Gospel accounts Jesus knew he would die and rise again.

When I pointed this out to you, you then said Jesus did not ask. What do you think prayers and supplications are?

Or is your point that Jesus knew so He did not ask? Well the text quoted in Hebrews 5:7 said Jesus did ask. He prayed and was answered. So now the issue you have is not with what I quoted from JM, but with the author of Hebrews.

You did not like that I pointed out twice you were barking at me for no reason by showing you the actual text. But then in even more vitriol come back again and make the same claims which I refute now 4 times.

So perhaps further examination is required to explain this. Jesus told us our Heavenly Father will give us what we need to survive. He told us not to worry about food and clothing. But then Jesus told us to pray to our Heavenly Father for our daily bread. Why did Jesus tell us not to worry about these things but also tell us to daily ask for them?

The same answer we get in knowing Jesus knew He would be raised but Hebrews 5:7 tells us He still prayed.

One can either accept this as a paradox or that in our case praying for our daily bread even though we know God provides reminds us of Who provides and sustains us.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

I did not use the word 'suffer' but learning any subject requires discipline, patience, concentration and diligence. That is certainly demanding and not all are capable of it.

Jesus learned to do everything His Father told Him by Word and suffering.
John 8:28-29:
So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.”

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Why does it say that Jesus “learned obedience”? (Hebrews 5)

1) I believe that is an allusion to earlier OT scriptures. Today for instance I was listening to some similar sounding prophecies from Bible gateway using the audio function, reading the NIV book of Isaiah. Some of the Messianic prophesies spoke about Christ at a young age, "Choosing the Good" etc.


2) In the orthodox Christology that Christianity has embraced (including this website) Christ is "True God" and True Man in the hypostatic union. Anyway as part of Christ being truly human this would mean the development of his soul (intellect and emotions) when He was incarnated. If this would not happen then he would not be truly human, and that would be bad because his assumption of our humanity is why we are able to partake of his redemption and life.
Romans 5:12-21.

 

[His student]

.... And you seemed to imply that He had learned and performed miracles when u said, “That goes, IMO, for learning about God and what He cares about, learning and practicing obedience, and doing miracles such as laying hands of the sick, casting out demons and even walking on water”

That said nothing about His learning things and or doing miracles before His baptism vs. after His baptism. You must have read that into my statement.

Jesus never stopped learning and growing up until the moment of His dismissing His Spirit.

Hopefully we, like Him and His disciples and Apostles, will continue to grow even after receiving the Spirit in power for ministry - right up until we go home - (assuming of course that one subscribes to that doctrine and does receive the Spirit in that way after being regenerated and justified as many don't).

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

First you claimed John MacArthur in his expository said Jesus did not know He would be resurrected. I showed that claim to be false. JM does not make that claim.

That is false.

What I said and noted a few times,

is that you and jm both said Jesus prayed to the Father asking for something specific (not to be left in the grave?) .

Jesus did not pray that nor ask the Father that in prayer.

Not in the Psalms, nor in anything in Scripture, whether you or jm referred to it or not.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Jesus asked to be saved from remaining in death, i.e., to be resurrected (Ps. 16: 9, 10).

Here it is again, still, in the OP. Jesus did not ask to be saved from remaining in death. Not in Psalm 16, not in any Psalm, not in any Scripture.

I posted this a few times, and said "quote any paragraph (i.e. context) where Jesus asked His Father to be saved from remaining in death" ----

neither you, nor jm, nor anyone can quote from Scripture what you and jm (in the OP) said Jesus asked.

 

[redleghunter]

That is false.

What I said and noted a few times,

is that you and jm both said Jesus prayed to the Father asking for something specific (not to be left in the grave?) .

Jesus did not pray that nor ask the Father that in prayer.

Not in the Psalms, nor in anything in Scripture, whether you or jm referred to it or not.

The OP opines on Hebrews 5 and specifically you take issue with verses 7-8. Why will you not address the actual text from Hebrews 5?

 

[redleghunter]

Here it is again, still, in the OP. Jesus did not ask to be saved from remaining in death. Not in Psalm 16, not in any Psalm, not in any Scripture.

I posted this a few times, and said "quote any paragraph (i.e. context) where Jesus asked His Father to be saved from remaining in death" ----

neither you, nor jm, nor anyone can quote from Scripture what you and jm (in the OP) said Jesus asked.

Could you please address the text quoted in Hebrews 5:7-8? Why avoid what I’m actually asking?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Could you please address the text quoted in Hebrews 5:7-8? Why avoid what I’m actually asking?

I just read it again. You can quote it here if you think it says what you say in the op , or what jm says. So far, NONE of the translations of Hebrews or the Psalms shows Jesus asking what you repeatedly claim He asked. That's Why I Posted: QUOTE SCRIPTURE - a paragraph at least so it is in context. QUOTE SCRIPTURE

IN ANY TRANSLATION YOU HAVE. NONE OF IT so far shows what you and him claim.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The OP opines on Hebrews 5 and specifically you take issue with verses 7-8. Why will you not address the actual text from Hebrews 5?

QUOTE IT. SHOW IT HERE. NONE of Scripture anywhere, including your references, in any translation , agrees with jm or you in what you claim Jesus asked.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I see exactly what the OP is saying here, it's all Biblical and straight from the wisdom of God.

Maybe you can show then :

Here is Hebrews 5 >>>
Hebrews 5 King James Version (KJV)
5 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:

2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.

3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.

4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.

5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain

WHERE is it written that Jesus asks the Father to not be left in the grave, to be resurrected , (as if Jesus did not already know the plan) ?

 

[GraceBro]

Why does it say that Jesus “learned obedience”? (Hebrews 5)

The context of Hebrews 5:7 makes it clear that “who, in the days of His flesh” refers back to Christ, the main subject in v. 5.

In Gethsemane, Jesus agonized and wept, but committed Himself to do the Father’s will in accepting the cup of suffering which would bring His death (Matt. 26: 38–46; Luke 22: 44, 45).

Anticipating bearing the burden of judgment for sin, Jesus felt its fullest pain and grief (Is. 52: 14; 53: 3–5, 10).

Though He bore the penalty in silence and did not seek to deliver Himself from it (Is. 53: 7), He did cry out from the agony of the fury of God’s wrath poured on His perfectly holy and obedient Person (Matt. 27: 46; 2 Cor. 5: 21).

Jesus asked to be saved from remaining in death, i.e., to be resurrected (Ps. 16: 9, 10). “Though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered” (v. 8).

Christ did not need to suffer in order to conquer or correct any disobedience. In His deity (as the Son of God), He understood obedience completely. As the incarnate Lord, He humbled Himself to learn (Luke 2: 52).

He learned obedience for the same reasons He bore temptation: to confirm His humanity and experience its sufferings to the fullest (2: 10; Luke 2: 52; Phil. 2: 8). Christ’s obedience was also necessary so that He could fulfill all righteousness (Matt. 5: 13) and thus prove to be the perfect sacrifice to take the place of sinners (1 Pet. 3: 18).

He was the perfectly righteous One, whose righteousness would be imputed to sinners (Rom. 3: 24–26). “And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation” (v. 9). Because of the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ and His perfect sacrifice for sin, He became the cause of salvation.

True salvation evidences itself in obedience to Christ, from the initial obedience to the gospel command to repent and believe (Acts 5: 32; Rom. 1: 5; 2 Thess. 1: 8; 1 Pet. 1: 2, 22; 4: 17) to a life pattern of obedience to the Word (Rom. 6: 16). —-John MacArthur

It means Jesus learned the value of believing, trusting, and responding to the truth of the true and living God by being in this world and experiencing the suffering that every person experiences and can relate to in some capacity.

 

[redleghunter]

I just read it again. You can quote it here if you think it says what you say in the op , or what jm says. So far, NONE of the translations of Hebrews or the Psalms shows Jesus asking what you repeatedly claim He asked. That's Why I Posted: QUOTE SCRIPTURE - a paragraph at least so it is in context. QUOTE SCRIPTURE

IN ANY TRANSLATION YOU HAVE. NONE OF IT so far shows what you and him claim.

Ok you won’t address Hebrews 5:7-8

 

[redleghunter]

QUOTE IT. SHOW IT HERE. NONE of Scripture anywhere, including your references, in any translation , agrees with jm or you in what you claim Jesus asked.

Quoted 5 times.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Ok you won’t address Hebrews 5:7-8

I quoted it, I read it many times before. It shows clearly not what you nor jm say, but you don't seem to be able to get that.

IF IT ANYWHERE SAYS what you and jm claimed in the OP, then quote it word for word, a paragraph to include context.

SO far, you never did show Jesus asking what both you and jm claimed.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Quoted 5 times.

No, you showed a reference to it.

I READ IT, and posted all the words for you, so everyone can see it,

and NO WHERE , NOT ONCE, does it say Jesus asked anything like you and jm claimed.

 

[redleghunter]

I quoted it, I read it many times before. It shows clearly not what you nor jm say, but you don't seem to be able to get that.

IF IT ANYWHERE SAYS what you and jm claimed in the OP, then quote it word for word, a paragraph to include context.

SO far, you never did show Jesus asking what both you and jm claimed.

Jesus prayed. Why did He pray. What is the praying in Hebrews 5:7-8 related to?

 

[redleghunter]

No, you showed a reference to it.

I READ IT, and posted all the words for you, so everyone can see it,

and NO WHERE , NOT ONCE, does it say Jesus asked anything like you and jm claimed.

Hebrews 5:7-8. Jesus is praying. For what exactly?