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Why does heresy no longer occur as a formal charge?

BobRyan

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Like I said, racism is a cultural heresy and if one teaches this error the culture will penalize them severely.
Racism is a form of hatred - it is not necessarily heresy - rather it is sin against Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself".

As the New Testament says "Sin IS transgression of the Law " 1 John 3:4
Obviously heresy is alive and well in cancel culture, but I am asking why it is no longer operative in the Christian Church.
Heresy as in "false teaching" false-doctrine is in fact alive and well.
But the idea of a civil law against it is pretty much dead outside of a theocracy since we have religious liberty, freedom of conscience etc.
Perhaps the cultural dogmas at present mostly have to do with inclusivity, and therefore if one discriminates on the basis of sex, race, sexual orientation, or anything else, they will be charged with cultural heresy.
ok so you are right that there is this idea of "hate speech" where if you have a POV different than me then the first one that claims to be "offended" can claim that the other person is guilty of hate speech. I think that is the closest that you get in the western world to civil ideas of "heresy"
 
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AlexB23

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Oh, I was just referring to your post. Maybe "GPT4ALL" does not mean ChatGPT?


It's a good theory, given the way that Council took a different tack.
GPT4ALL is made by Nomic, and is unrelated to OpenAI's product, ChatGPT.

And yes, Vatican II was a major shift for the Catholic Church. As a man in his mid-20s, Vatican II happened almost 40 years before my birth. We need some older Catholics here to discuss this matter.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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In the recent thread on heretics a common claim was something like, "Christian churches used to charge people with heresy and impose penalties, but they don't anymore." I think this is factually accurate, but I want to raise the question of why heresy no longer has much of a function within Christian churches. Why are formal charges of heresy "old hat," and relatively uncommon in our day and age?*

For example, from what I can find, the last two times the Catholic Church charged anyone with heresy were 2004 and 1997 (link - Reidy was eventually convicted).

(Although this thread is about charging heretics with heresy, I will still link to my thread on propositional heresy, which is related. ViaCrucis' post on heresy is also useful.)

Those who wish to argue that heresy is still alive and well, and is no less common today than it was in centuries past, are of course welcome to argue their position.

* A formal charge of heresy is a charge of heresy leveled by a church authority in their official capacity.
We don't live in the dark ages where the RCC ruled as a Theocracy behind the curtain of a Monarchy. Blessings.
 
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Valletta

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And yes, Vatican II was a major shift for the Catholic Church. As a man in his mid-20s, Vatican II happened almost 40 years before my birth. We need some older Catholics here to discuss this matter.
A shift occurred, but unfortunately,on the negative side, many individuals claimed Vatican II said this or that when it said nothing of the kind. They pushed the "spirit" of Vatican II. Those people used Vatican II to bring the Church more in line with the culture changes that were taking place in the 1960s. The universities convinced the Church that, for example, the local bishop need not be on the board of directors. Now many of those universities cannot be recognized as Catholic. The nuns that taught at Catholic schools modified their habits, and some eventually didn't wear habits at all which I think was not a good thing. They quit teaching the Catechism in Catholic schools, instead for religion they discussed typical social problems that kids might have. Guitar masses became popular. The popes position seemed weakened, although Vatican II essentially stated bishops had no decision powers without the approval of the pope. The biggest negative was the loss of the teaching of the faith, and how important a prayer life is. I enjoy guitar masses, but I think some parishes slipped because of the lack of holiness with music that wasn't reverent. The awe of the Real Presence of Jesus and the holiness of the mass is what the Catholic Church offers that Protestants don't. Without knowledge of the faith and poor pray lives people fell away and continued to fall away. On a positive note, taking out the Latin in the liturgy made the mass more understandable for a lot more people. Too many priests rattled off a poor quality of Latin. There were good changes in the liturgy, but some say things went to far. For example, the greeting of other people before communion seems out of place. The dialogues with other religions were a great step.
 
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concretecamper

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We need more of this

1000005872.png
 
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AlexB23

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A shift occurred, but unfortunately,on the negative side, many individuals claimed Vatican II said this or that when it said nothing of the kind. They pushed the "spirit" of Vatican II. Those people used Vatican II to bring the Church more in line with the culture changes that were taking place in the 1960s. The universities convinced the Church that, for example, the local bishop need not be on the board of directors. Now many of those universities cannot be recognized as Catholic. The nuns that taught at Catholic schools modified their habits, and some eventually didn't wear habits at all which I think was not a good thing. They quit teaching the Catechism in Catholic schools, instead for religion they discussed typical social problems that kids might have. Guitar masses became popular. The popes position seemed weakened, although Vatican II essentially stated bishops had no decision powers without the approval of the pope. The biggest negative was the loss of the teaching of the faith, and how important a prayer life is. I enjoy guitar masses, but I think some parishes slipped because of the lack of holiness with music that wasn't reverent. The awe of the Real Presence of Jesus and the holiness of the mass is what the Catholic Church offers that Protestants don't. Without knowledge of the faith and poor pray lives people fell away and continued to fall away. On a positive note, taking out the Latin in the liturgy made the mass more understandable for a lot more people. Too many priests rattled off a poor quality of Latin. There were good changes in the liturgy, but some say things went to far. For example, the greeting of other people before communion seems out of place. The dialogues with other religions were a great step.
Yeah, the 1960s had a change on our society, for better, or for worse. A balance between tradition and modernity might be the best way to keep Catholicism alive and well in 2024. So, maybe for masses, guitar and contemporary Christian music could be used for a young folks' Mass, while traditional music could be used for the other masses. For Catholic schools, nuns could wear habits, maybe polyester ones that are breathable during warm days. Social problems could still be discussed, as long as the social problems are not woke or gender related. For instance, talking about taking care of the Earth is alright, as my Catholic church discusses stewardship, as long as we put God first.

It is good that Latin is removed from normal liturgy, as that makes the Catholic faith more accessible to non-Latin speakers. I do feel somewhat uncomfortable greeting people before communion though, as COVID has not gone away yet globally. Also, greeting people could be done after communion, when the Mass has ended in my opinion.

In other words, call me a moderate, or an old-soul with some modern tastes, but we live in a fallen world, so no Mass or church will be perfect. Also, it would be nice if dialog between the Orthodox and Anglicans were made, so communion could be taken by anyone of those denominations. For instance, if an Anglican or Orthodox travels overseas to a country without any Anglican churches, he should be allowed to take communion at a Catholic church, as Anglicans and Orthodox use Eucharist as well, but with slightly different beliefs.
 
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The Liturgist

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It is good that Latin is removed from normal liturgy, as that makes the Catholic faith more accessible to non-Latin speakers. I

I would dispute that. Have you ever been to a Traditional Latin Mass?

Firstly, the Scripture Lessons, which are sung in Latin, are repeated in the spoken vernacular immediately before the Sermon, which is also given in Englsih.

Secondly, a complete translation is provided of the entire service including the hymns and various prayers said by the celebrant which are inaudible to the Congregation, and it is extremely easy to follow along.

The Traditional Latin Mass I attend hands out beautiful folio-sized (that is to say, large) illustrated missals with photographs, which are a pleasure to read , especially compared to the disposable Misallettes used at the Novus Ordo Missae.

Actually, everything in the hymns and said by the servers is silently repeated by the Celebrant in the Tridentine mass, and I think the Dominican mass as well - this is a quirk of the Roman Rite, but it was of great benefit to the entire world since it resulted in the publication of Missals and Breviaries which had, for the first time, everything in one book, whereas previously in all liturgical rites the parts for different people were included in different books, such as a Euchologion for priests, a Diakonion for bishops, a hymnal such as the Graduale for the choir, and so on. Books which contain the entire service are more user friendly, and the traditional Roman Missal is a master-class in how to make a printed liturgical book as user-friendly as possible - for example, the common of the Mass, said at all masses, is in the middle of the book, while the propers for the services throughout the year and for weddings, funerals and other special types of mass are in the first and last parts of the book. This layout reduces wear and tear on the binding.

Traditionally, pious Catholics would have their own Hand Missal, and I have a compact 1962 hand missal which was issued to a soldier in the Viet Nam War. Recently I had the pleasure of meeting his family at the same Traditional Latin Mass.

Another big difference is that the Traditional Mass is always full. It is standing room only on major feasts, so I always get there at least 30 minutes ahead of time. Confession is available one hour before mass, and in the period before the mass begins the Rosary is prayed by the laity in English (or rather to be precise, the Hail Mary punctuated by the Lord’s Prayer), which is quite nice, since we Orthodox pray these prayers as well.

In the Orthodox Church, we have retained the liturgical languages, and two Oriental Orthodox churches, the Armenians and Ethiopians, continue to use them exclusively, and among the Aramaic-speaking Assyrians Church of the East, they are used at most services, but in Australia English language services are held. However, most Orthodox churches that have an historically important liturgical language including but not limited to Greek, Syriac, Coptic and Church Slavonic will use a mix of that language and the vernacular, in the case of Syriac and Coptic Orthodox using two vernacular languages together with Syriac and Coptic, that is to say, Arabic and a language such as English or German, Swedish, Dutch - whatever the language of the host country is.

This works extremely well, since by moving around the portion of the liturgy done in the vernacular, people are able to pick up more and more of the historically important ecclesiastical language, which is huge, because we have kids in the Coptic and Syriac churches who are now able to read the numerous important Patristic texts and early Bible translations written in those languages. One Coptic Orthodox church located near me has won awards throughout the country for the success of its Coptic language program.

In addition to that, there are a few other important facts that should be mentioned specific to the Roman Catholic situation

  • As stated earlier, attendance at most Traditional Latin Masses significantly outstrips attendance at Novus Ordo masses. And furthermore, Novus Ordo masses in Latin are more popular than those celebrated in the vernacular, and more traditional masses with incense and the celebrant celebrating versus populum, all of which are allowed by the rubrics ,are more popular than the increasingly common contemporary celebrations of the mass
  • Thus, it must be stressed, the Latin Mass is not exclusively Tridentine. The actions of Pope Francis singled out people using the Traditional Latin Mass.
  • Additionally, no provision has been made to allow for the Tridentine mass to be celebrated in English even though it is clear there is demand for that service, since many Anglo Catholic churches do that, using the Anglican Missal, which is just an English translation of the Roman Missal, which one also finds in any official Roman Catholic hand missal, so the translation already exists, the fact that the traditional liturgy cannot be celebrated in English is simply due to bureaucratic discrimination. Furthermore, the liturgies of the Old Catholics are also basically what i’ve just described, as as is one of the two main liturgies of the Antiochian Western Rite Vicarate in North America, the Divine Liturgy of St. Gregory.
  • Furthermore, if we look at Sacrosanctum Concilium itself, it did not authorize adding new Eucharistic Prayers, or the other radical changes - indeed, it did not even authorize changing the language of celebration completely to the vernacular. It envisaged that the Canon of the Mass and various hymns composed in Latin would continue to be Said or sung in those languages (depending on whether it was a Low Mass or a Solemn HIgh Mass).
  • The attempt to increase the public celebration of the Office, which was also desired by Vatican II and even by Annibale Bugnini, also failed, and so on is as unlikely to find a Roman Catholic parish celebrating Vespers, for example, now as before. Indeed more unlikely, since the change in rubric permits the Sunday mass to be celebrated on Saturday night and on Sunday night, which violates the principle of the ecclesiastical day beginning and ending at Sunset (and was also unnecessary, since under the Tridentine mass, the content of Ferial Masses of ordinary Sundays, basically, whenever the celebrant is wearing Green, with some exceptions of feasts where Green is also usually worn, such as Trinity Sunday and the Sunday of Christ the King, would be repeated at weekday masses).
  • Furthermore, the use of instruments such as the piano and the guitar remains forbidden according to Tra le solicitudini, the instruction of Pope Pius X concerning liturgical music, which to my knowledge was never overridden and remains in effect.
  • Also given the principle of Papal Infallibility, and the ambiguities it contains, given the weight of Ecclesia Dei by Pope St. John Paul II, the fact that Pope Francis would override and nullify an instruction given by a Pope whose canonization he campaigned for seems very strange - indeed Pope Francis has repeatedly contradicted Pope St. John Paul II on issues such as human sexual morality and liberation theology.
Lastly, I would note that the fear of the Orthodox liturgy being changed in a manner similiar to what has happened to the Roman Catholic liturgy has been the cause for much consternation on the part of the Orthodox laity and has decreased popular support for ecumenical reconciliation. It is clear that Vatican II did not want that to happen, considering they even allowed our bishops to attend the conference. The actions of Annibale Bugnini and the other members of the “Concilium”, a powerful group formed by Pope Paul VI to implement Sacrosanctum Concilium, clearly overstepped their mandate and actually contradicted the instructions of the council fathers of Vatican II, who had they wanted the liturgy to look like what it is at present, could easily have said so specifically.

Contrary to the arguments of many, Vatican II is fully accepted by a majority of Roman Catholics who prefer the Traditional Latin Mass and who are attending DIocesan Latin Masses of the sort “Traditiones Custodes” sought to suppress, as well as those offerred by the FSSP and ICKSP, both of which are fully canonical organizations, and other groups attached to the traditional liturgy, such as the Franciscans of the Immaculate (the cloistered nuns of which Pope Francis prohibited from visiting their family members during a long “Papal visitation” in the first two years of his papacy, so the only way they could see their families would have been to break their vows of obedience, stability and enclosure, and which would have still been extremely difficult due to the vow of poverty - one could argue they were trapped), and I recall this incident because it was around the time I joined the Orthodox Church and indeed contributed to my decision to do that, and not join the Roman Catholic Church. Rather it is the SSPX, which itself not fully schismatic but rather “in an irregular canonical situation” that generally opposes Vatican II.
 
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Valletta

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I would dispute that. Have you ever been to a Traditional Latin Mass?

Firstly, the Scripture Lessons, which are sung in Latin, are repeated in the spoken vernacular immediately before the Sermon, which is also given in Englsih.

Secondly, a complete translation is provided of the entire service including the hymns and various prayers said by the celebrant which are inaudible to the Congregation, and it is extremely easy to follow along.

The Traditional Latin Mass I attend hands out beautiful folio-sized (that is to say, large) illustrated missals with photographs, which are a pleasure to read , especially compared to the disposable Misallettes used at the Novus Ordo Missae.

Actually, everything in the hymns and said by the servers is silently repeated by the Celebrant in the Tridentine mass, and I think the Dominican mass as well - this is a quirk of the Roman Rite, but it was of great benefit to the entire world since it resulted in the publication of Missals and Breviaries which had, for the first time, everything in one book, whereas previously in all liturgical rites the parts for different people were included in different books, such as a Euchologion for priests, a Diakonion for bishops, a hymnal such as the Graduale for the choir, and so on. Books which contain the entire service are more user friendly, and the traditional Roman Missal is a master-class in how to make a printed liturgical book as user-friendly as possible - for example, the common of the Mass, said at all masses, is in the middle of the book, while the propers for the services throughout the year and for weddings, funerals and other special types of mass are in the first and last parts of the book. This layout reduces wear and tear on the binding.

Traditionally, pious Catholics would have their own Hand Missal, and I have a compact 1962 hand missal which was issued to a soldier in the Viet Nam War. Recently I had the pleasure of meeting his family at the same Traditional Latin Mass.

Another big difference is that the Traditional Mass is always full. It is standing room only on major feasts, so I always get there at least 30 minutes ahead of time. Confession is available one hour before mass, and in the period before the mass begins the Rosary is prayed by the laity in English (or rather to be precise, the Hail Mary punctuated by the Lord’s Prayer), which is quite nice, since we Orthodox pray these prayers as well.

In the Orthodox Church, we have retained the liturgical languages, and two Oriental Orthodox churches, the Armenians and Ethiopians, continue to use them exclusively, and among the Aramaic-speaking Assyrians Church of the East, they are used at most services, but in Australia English language services are held. However, most Orthodox churches that have an historically important liturgical language including but not limited to Greek, Syriac, Coptic and Church Slavonic will use a mix of that language and the vernacular, in the case of Syriac and Coptic Orthodox using two vernacular languages together with Syriac and Coptic, that is to say, Arabic and a language such as English or German, Swedish, Dutch - whatever the language of the host country is.

This works extremely well, since by moving around the portion of the liturgy done in the vernacular, people are able to pick up more and more of the historically important ecclesiastical language, which is huge, because we have kids in the Coptic and Syriac churches who are now able to read the numerous important Patristic texts and early Bible translations written in those languages. One Coptic Orthodox church located near me has won awards throughout the country for the success of its Coptic language program.

In addition to that, there are a few other important facts that should be mentioned specific to the Roman Catholic situation

  • As stated earlier, attendance at most Traditional Latin Masses significantly outstrips attendance at Novus Ordo masses. And furthermore, Novus Ordo masses in Latin are more popular than those celebrated in the vernacular, and more traditional masses with incense and the celebrant celebrating versus populum, all of which are allowed by the rubrics ,are more popular than the increasingly common contemporary celebrations of the mass
  • Thus, it must be stressed, the Latin Mass is not exclusively Tridentine. The actions of Pope Francis singled out people using the Traditional Latin Mass.
  • Additionally, no provision has been made to allow for the Tridentine mass to be celebrated in English even though it is clear there is demand for that service, since many Anglo Catholic churches do that, using the Anglican Missal, which is just an English translation of the Roman Missal, which one also finds in any official Roman Catholic hand missal, so the translation already exists, the fact that the traditional liturgy cannot be celebrated in English is simply due to bureaucratic discrimination. Furthermore, the liturgies of the Old Catholics are also basically what i’ve just described, as as is one of the two main liturgies of the Antiochian Western Rite Vicarate in North America, the Divine Liturgy of St. Gregory.
  • Furthermore, if we look at Sacrosanctum Concilium itself, it did not authorize adding new Eucharistic Prayers, or the other radical changes - indeed, it did not even authorize changing the language of celebration completely to the vernacular. It envisaged that the Canon of the Mass and various hymns composed in Latin would continue to be Said or sung in those languages (depending on whether it was a Low Mass or a Solemn HIgh Mass).
  • The attempt to increase the public celebration of the Office, which was also desired by Vatican II and even by Annibale Bugnini, also failed, and so on is as unlikely to find a Roman Catholic parish celebrating Vespers, for example, now as before. Indeed more unlikely, since the change in rubric permits the Sunday mass to be celebrated on Saturday night and on Sunday night, which violates the principle of the ecclesiastical day beginning and ending at Sunset (and was also unnecessary, since under the Tridentine mass, the content of Ferial Masses of ordinary Sundays, basically, whenever the celebrant is wearing Green, with some exceptions of feasts where Green is also usually worn, such as Trinity Sunday and the Sunday of Christ the King, would be repeated at weekday masses).
  • Furthermore, the use of instruments such as the piano and the guitar remains forbidden according to Tra le solicitudini, the instruction of Pope Pius X concerning liturgical music, which to my knowledge was never overridden and remains in effect.
  • Also given the principle of Papal Infallibility, and the ambiguities it contains, given the weight of Ecclesia Dei by Pope St. John Paul II, the fact that Pope Francis would override and nullify an instruction given by a Pope whose canonization he campaigned for seems very strange - indeed Pope Francis has repeatedly contradicted Pope St. John Paul II on issues such as human sexual morality and liberation theology.
Lastly, I would note that the fear of the Orthodox liturgy being changed in a manner similiar to what has happened to the Roman Catholic liturgy has been the cause for much consternation on the part of the Orthodox laity and has decreased popular support for ecumenical reconciliation. It is clear that Vatican II did not want that to happen, considering they even allowed our bishops to attend the conference. The actions of Annibale Bugnini and the other members of the “Concilium”, a powerful group formed by Pope Paul VI to implement Sacrosanctum Concilium, clearly overstepped their mandate and actually contradicted the instructions of the council fathers of Vatican II, who had they wanted the liturgy to look like what it is at present, could easily have said so specifically.

Contrary to the arguments of many, Vatican II is fully accepted by a majority of Roman Catholics who prefer the Traditional Latin Mass and who are attending DIocesan Latin Masses of the sort “Traditiones Custodes” sought to suppress, as well as those offerred by the FSSP and ICKSP, both of which are fully canonical organizations, and other groups attached to the traditional liturgy, such as the Franciscans of the Immaculate (the cloistered nuns of which Pope Francis prohibited from visiting their family members during a long “Papal visitation” in the first two years of his papacy, so the only way they could see their families would have been to break their vows of obedience, stability and enclosure, and which would have still been extremely difficult due to the vow of poverty - one could argue they were trapped), and I recall this incident because it was around the time I joined the Orthodox Church and indeed contributed to my decision to do that, and not join the Roman Catholic Church. Rather it is the SSPX, which itself not fully schismatic but rather “in an irregular canonical situation” that generally opposes Vatican II.
Don't get me wrong, I love a traditional mass. A lot of the beautiful words of the music was written in Latin and does not sound as well in other languages. And there typically is great reverence. If it were up to me, if a third of the people wanted a Latin mass I would have a third of the masses in Latin. That being said, for those who don't speak Latin, and that is the majority of Catholics, a lot of the liturgy is missed. You could try and read along in old missals but it was difficult for me. Having attended masses in other languages I found it extremely difficult for me to follow along. So I am not at all against Traditional masses, I think they are wonderful. As it is we sing some Latin songs at our church now and then.
 
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AlexB23

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I would dispute that. Have you ever been to a Traditional Latin Mass?

Firstly, the Scripture Lessons, which are sung in Latin, are repeated in the spoken vernacular immediately before the Sermon, which is also given in Englsih.

Secondly, a complete translation is provided of the entire service including the hymns and various prayers said by the celebrant which are inaudible to the Congregation, and it is extremely easy to follow along.

The Traditional Latin Mass I attend hands out beautiful folio-sized (that is to say, large) illustrated missals with photographs, which are a pleasure to read , especially compared to the disposable Misallettes used at the Novus Ordo Missae.

Actually, everything in the hymns and said by the servers is silently repeated by the Celebrant in the Tridentine mass, and I think the Dominican mass as well - this is a quirk of the Roman Rite, but it was of great benefit to the entire world since it resulted in the publication of Missals and Breviaries which had, for the first time, everything in one book, whereas previously in all liturgical rites the parts for different people were included in different books, such as a Euchologion for priests, a Diakonion for bishops, a hymnal such as the Graduale for the choir, and so on. Books which contain the entire service are more user friendly, and the traditional Roman Missal is a master-class in how to make a printed liturgical book as user-friendly as possible - for example, the common of the Mass, said at all masses, is in the middle of the book, while the propers for the services throughout the year and for weddings, funerals and other special types of mass are in the first and last parts of the book. This layout reduces wear and tear on the binding.

Traditionally, pious Catholics would have their own Hand Missal, and I have a compact 1962 hand missal which was issued to a soldier in the Viet Nam War. Recently I had the pleasure of meeting his family at the same Traditional Latin Mass.

Another big difference is that the Traditional Mass is always full. It is standing room only on major feasts, so I always get there at least 30 minutes ahead of time. Confession is available one hour before mass, and in the period before the mass begins the Rosary is prayed by the laity in English (or rather to be precise, the Hail Mary punctuated by the Lord’s Prayer), which is quite nice, since we Orthodox pray these prayers as well.

In the Orthodox Church, we have retained the liturgical languages, and two Oriental Orthodox churches, the Armenians and Ethiopians, continue to use them exclusively, and among the Aramaic-speaking Assyrians Church of the East, they are used at most services, but in Australia English language services are held. However, most Orthodox churches that have an historically important liturgical language including but not limited to Greek, Syriac, Coptic and Church Slavonic will use a mix of that language and the vernacular, in the case of Syriac and Coptic Orthodox using two vernacular languages together with Syriac and Coptic, that is to say, Arabic and a language such as English or German, Swedish, Dutch - whatever the language of the host country is.

This works extremely well, since by moving around the portion of the liturgy done in the vernacular, people are able to pick up more and more of the historically important ecclesiastical language, which is huge, because we have kids in the Coptic and Syriac churches who are now able to read the numerous important Patristic texts and early Bible translations written in those languages. One Coptic Orthodox church located near me has won awards throughout the country for the success of its Coptic language program.

In addition to that, there are a few other important facts that should be mentioned specific to the Roman Catholic situation

  • As stated earlier, attendance at most Traditional Latin Masses significantly outstrips attendance at Novus Ordo masses. And furthermore, Novus Ordo masses in Latin are more popular than those celebrated in the vernacular, and more traditional masses with incense and the celebrant celebrating versus populum, all of which are allowed by the rubrics ,are more popular than the increasingly common contemporary celebrations of the mass
  • Thus, it must be stressed, the Latin Mass is not exclusively Tridentine. The actions of Pope Francis singled out people using the Traditional Latin Mass.
  • Additionally, no provision has been made to allow for the Tridentine mass to be celebrated in English even though it is clear there is demand for that service, since many Anglo Catholic churches do that, using the Anglican Missal, which is just an English translation of the Roman Missal, which one also finds in any official Roman Catholic hand missal, so the translation already exists, the fact that the traditional liturgy cannot be celebrated in English is simply due to bureaucratic discrimination. Furthermore, the liturgies of the Old Catholics are also basically what i’ve just described, as as is one of the two main liturgies of the Antiochian Western Rite Vicarate in North America, the Divine Liturgy of St. Gregory.
  • Furthermore, if we look at Sacrosanctum Concilium itself, it did not authorize adding new Eucharistic Prayers, or the other radical changes - indeed, it did not even authorize changing the language of celebration completely to the vernacular. It envisaged that the Canon of the Mass and various hymns composed in Latin would continue to be Said or sung in those languages (depending on whether it was a Low Mass or a Solemn HIgh Mass).
  • The attempt to increase the public celebration of the Office, which was also desired by Vatican II and even by Annibale Bugnini, also failed, and so on is as unlikely to find a Roman Catholic parish celebrating Vespers, for example, now as before. Indeed more unlikely, since the change in rubric permits the Sunday mass to be celebrated on Saturday night and on Sunday night, which violates the principle of the ecclesiastical day beginning and ending at Sunset (and was also unnecessary, since under the Tridentine mass, the content of Ferial Masses of ordinary Sundays, basically, whenever the celebrant is wearing Green, with some exceptions of feasts where Green is also usually worn, such as Trinity Sunday and the Sunday of Christ the King, would be repeated at weekday masses).
  • Furthermore, the use of instruments such as the piano and the guitar remains forbidden according to Tra le solicitudini, the instruction of Pope Pius X concerning liturgical music, which to my knowledge was never overridden and remains in effect.
  • Also given the principle of Papal Infallibility, and the ambiguities it contains, given the weight of Ecclesia Dei by Pope St. John Paul II, the fact that Pope Francis would override and nullify an instruction given by a Pope whose canonization he campaigned for seems very strange - indeed Pope Francis has repeatedly contradicted Pope St. John Paul II on issues such as human sexual morality and liberation theology.
Lastly, I would note that the fear of the Orthodox liturgy being changed in a manner similiar to what has happened to the Roman Catholic liturgy has been the cause for much consternation on the part of the Orthodox laity and has decreased popular support for ecumenical reconciliation. It is clear that Vatican II did not want that to happen, considering they even allowed our bishops to attend the conference. The actions of Annibale Bugnini and the other members of the “Concilium”, a powerful group formed by Pope Paul VI to implement Sacrosanctum Concilium, clearly overstepped their mandate and actually contradicted the instructions of the council fathers of Vatican II, who had they wanted the liturgy to look like what it is at present, could easily have said so specifically.

Contrary to the arguments of many, Vatican II is fully accepted by a majority of Roman Catholics who prefer the Traditional Latin Mass and who are attending DIocesan Latin Masses of the sort “Traditiones Custodes” sought to suppress, as well as those offerred by the FSSP and ICKSP, both of which are fully canonical organizations, and other groups attached to the traditional liturgy, such as the Franciscans of the Immaculate (the cloistered nuns of which Pope Francis prohibited from visiting their family members during a long “Papal visitation” in the first two years of his papacy, so the only way they could see their families would have been to break their vows of obedience, stability and enclosure, and which would have still been extremely difficult due to the vow of poverty - one could argue they were trapped), and I recall this incident because it was around the time I joined the Orthodox Church and indeed contributed to my decision to do that, and not join the Roman Catholic Church. Rather it is the SSPX, which itself not fully schismatic but rather “in an irregular canonical situation” that generally opposes Vatican II.
I have been to some Mass in Latin while in spain in 2019 or so on vacation. I did not understand it, but the incense was good, and hymns sounded good.
 
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I have been to some Mass in Latin while in spain in 2019 or so on vacation. I did not understand it, but the incense was good, and hymns sounded good.

If you had a hand missal or went to an website like Sancta Missa , which also has an app, you could have followed the whole thing, since unlike the Novus Ordo Missae, there are no options in the old Tridentine Mass, other than if it is a Solemn High Mass, or a Low Mass, and whether or not there is a bishop, or if it is a marriage, or a mass for the dead, or a votive mass, all of which are pretty obvious, except perhaps votive masses, but I don’t think they can be celebrated on Sundays or Feast Days , perhaps @chevyontheriver or @Michie know or know someone who knows. We really need to get a good Roman Catholic liturgist on this forum, right now we have several good Eastern Orthodox and Anglican liturgists, but I don’t think we have any Roman Catholic clergy or deacons or liturgical experts at present. But I can look this point up, in the unlikely event anyone cares .

Right now, and this is not intended as a boast, I am probably the closest thing we have to a Roman Catholic liturgist, which is bad because I’m not Roman Catholic, but I am a scholar of the liturgy with some knowledge of the Roman Catholic liturgical rites, and a strong interest in them. I recently obtained a book on the Dominican RIte liturgy which I am looking forward to sucking down, as that’s a rather thrilling subject - the Dominican Rite was the first attempt I am aware of to create a standard liturgy that could be used everywhere, before the Tridentine Mass that followed the Council of Trent, since before that time, different uses of the Roman Rite flourished throughout Europe, and unfortunately most of these were lost during the Reformation and Counter Reformation, but some have survived, some under unexpected circumstances. Specifically the Roman Rite uses of Lyons, Braga, and Cologne survive, and the four regional uses of England, those of Sarum (Salisbury), which was the most important, York, Hereford and Durham survive, at least the Sarum and York missals survive, and Anglicans have been largely responsible for their preservation, since unlike, for example, the use of Lyons, the use of Sarum is not officially sanctioned by the RCC.

Unfortunately, the Rite of Braga, historically the main liturgy in Portugal, has become critically endangered.

There are several other uses whose texts survive, but which are not actively in use. There are also two versions of the Gallican Rite still being celebrated - the Ambrosian Rite, which survives in one parish in its ancient form, and throughout the rest of Milan in its modified post-Conciliar form, and the Mozarabic Rite, which in the late 19th century was still being celebrated in five parishes in Toledo, but which now is only being celebrated in a dedicated chapel in the Cathedral of Toledo, and in a nearby monastery. However, it is preserved as a living tradition, and Pope St. John Paul II celebrated it at St. Peter’s Basilica in the Vatican in the 1990s, which is thrilling.

Several of the uses of the Roman Rite compiled by religious orders survive however, including some which I thought were extinct, but which are actually alive and kicking. In addition to the aforementioned Dominican Rite, there is the textually very similar Carthusian Rite, which is used by the Carthusian monks, and which differs from the Dominican RIte mainly in terms of rubrics and the quality of the hymns - Carthusians sing Gregorian Chant in a very mournful way, whereas the Dominican form of Gregorian Chant is particularly bright and cheerful. Then there is the Norbertine Use, and there is a Norbertine monastery of St. Michael located in Southern California I hope to visit, and the Carmelite Use, there being a Carmelite monastery in Wyoming which I also hope to visit, as a well as a mainly Vietnamese parish in upstate New York whose priest is a Carmelite and frequently celebrates the Carmelite mass. And there are a few others if I recall.

At any rate, with the Tridentine Mass, the beauty of it is that no matter where you went in the world, you can always follow the it, since the liturgy is basically invariant, aside from the propers, and so as long as you have a hand missal or remember the text, you are covered. And this is also the case with the Dominican, Carmelite and other uses of the religious orders, and so some people who might have a close relative in one of the orders or a particular attachment to it would have a Dominican hand missal rather than a Tridentine. At any rate, the actual content of the mass doesn’t vary that much, since they were all very similar, and a non-Tridentine mass was easy to avoid, and these days, most places celebrating the Traditional Latin Mass make hand missals available to those in attendance. The parish near me has beautiful missals that I mentioned before, the Missal of St. Edmund Campion, which I highly recommend and would like to have a copy of in my library, as it is such a beautiful book, being large, in full color, with photographs, and the English translation being in traditional English.

With the Novus Ordo Missae, there are four different Eucharistic prayers in routine use, plus at least two others for specialized use, and numerous options avaiable to the celebrant, which makes it much more complex. Orthodox liturgies are that complex, so I don’t mind the increased complexity, but the Orthodox also tend to make use of the vernacular in such a way as to teach other languages to the people, as mentioned previously, and also many parishes do things in a very standardized way - for example, even though there are 86 anaphoras, or Eucharistic prayers, in the Syriac Orthodox liturgy, most parishes use only one of them, and likewise the Copts will typically only use one of their three anaphoras except on Pascha and a few other occasions, when they use the Anaphora of St. Gregory the Theologian instead of that of St. Basil, with the Anaphora of St. Cyril usually only being used midweek during Lent, if ever. The Coptic priest, unlike his Syriac Orthodox counterpart, has a choice of fraction prayers, but many will just use one (amusingly, the Syrian Fraction, which is basically the same one used in the Syriac Orthodox liturgy, is the most popular). However, the Copts and Syriacs have made their liturgies more accessible than even most Eastern Orthodox, by employing LCD screens on which the liturgy is translated in English, Arabic, and Syriac or Coptic as appropriate. And the Coptic and Syriac tends to be phonetically Romanized, so those wishing to sing along in Coptic and Syriac can do so without knowing Greek or Estrangelo script, respectively.

In the Eastern Orthodox church, the celebrant does not have very many choices - the Typikon of his jurisdiction, parish or monastery specifies pretty much everything, such as what hymns will be sung, what divine liturgy will be used, et cetera.

So I guess my point is that while we can handle the increased complexity, the argument of those Roman Catholics who love the traditional mass, many of whom grew up with it and had to endure painfully the transition to the Novus Ordo Missae, that the old mass has the advantage of universal accessibility, is a pretty compelling one. Since the hymns were standardized like in the Eastern Orthodox liturgy, once one knows what “Gloria in excelsis Deo” or “Agnus Dei” mean in English, following the Tridentine mass is a piece of cake in any country. For example, the Gospel read at the end of the mass - that’s always John 1:1-14, the Last Gospel, which is always read at the end of a Solemn High Mass or a Missa Cantata (which is a mass that has a choir and is sung, but lacks a deacon or subdeacon, and which is the most frequently encountered form of Traditional Latin Mass). The Armenians also picked up that custom, as did the Maronites, and it also spread to the Ambrosian Rite.

Although interestingly, it was historically not a part of the Dominican Mass - it was not universal in the 14th century, when the Dominican liturgy was compiled as a standard for use by Dominican friars throughout Europe, so they would not have to learn the local uses, and for many years they resisted its inclusion, and even after being forced to include the Last Gospel, many Dominican priests would show their disapproval by, for instance, extinguishing the candles while it was being read, which I find amusingly passive/aggressive. I feel that the Dominicans should have been allowed to govern their own liturgy. In Eastern Orthodoxy, most monasteries have fairly wide latitude to control their typikon, so for example, in my church, the OCA, the New Skete monastery, which used to be Byzantine Rite Catholic but joined us several decades ago, has an experimental liturgy that was intended to revive aspects of the old Cathedral Use of the Hagia Sophia, and also feature various simplifications, so as to suit the monks very active lifestyle, which is centered around breeding German Shepherd dogs. I have one of their Euchologions, with the Divine Liturgies of St. James, St. Basil and St. John Chrysostom, and they are following a very different order of worship than what one will find in any of our parishes.

Likewise, the rubrics followed in our Albanian or Romanian parishes are very different from those followed in our Russian, American or Native Alaskan parishes.

However, the Divine Liturgy is such that once you know it, it is very easy to follow no matter where you go, much like the old Roman mass or the traditional Anglican BCP.

CS Lewis wrote a very good article about the importance of not capriciously changing the liturgy, due to the problems it causes the laity, which I strongly agree with: C. S. Lewis on the Theology and Practice of Worship
 
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AlexB23

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If you had a hand missal or went to an website like Sancta Missa , which also has an app, you could have followed the whole thing, since unlike the Novus Ordo Missae, there are no options in the old Tridentine Mass, other than if it is a Solemn High Mass, or a Low Mass, and whether or not there is a bishop, or if it is a marriage, or a mass for the dead, or a votive mass, all of which are pretty obvious, except perhaps votive masses, but I don’t think they can be celebrated on Sundays or Feast Days , perhaps @chevyontheriver or @Michie know or know someone who knows. We really need to get a good Roman Catholic liturgist on this forum, right now we have several good Eastern Orthodox and Anglican liturgists, but I don’t think we have any Roman Catholic clergy or deacons or liturgical experts at present. But I can look this point up, in the unlikely event anyone cares .

Right now, and this is not intended as a boast, I am probably the closest thing we have to a Roman Catholic liturgist, which is bad because I’m not Roman Catholic, but I am a scholar of the liturgy with some knowledge of the Roman Catholic liturgical rites, and a strong interest in them. I recently obtained a book on the Dominican RIte liturgy which I am looking forward to sucking down, as that’s a rather thrilling subject - the Dominican Rite was the first attempt I am aware of to create a standard liturgy that could be used everywhere, before the Tridentine Mass that followed the Council of Trent, since before that time, different uses of the Roman Rite flourished throughout Europe, and unfortunately most of these were lost during the Reformation and Counter Reformation, but some have survived, some under unexpected circumstances. Specifically the Roman Rite uses of Lyons, Braga, and Cologne survive, and the four regional uses of England, those of Sarum (Salisbury), which was the most important, York, Hereford and Durham survive, at least the Sarum and York missals survive, and Anglicans have been largely responsible for their preservation, since unlike, for example, the use of Lyons, the use of Sarum is not officially sanctioned by the RCC.

Unfortunately, the Rite of Braga, historically the main liturgy in Portugal, has become critically endangered.

There are several other uses whose texts survive, but which are not actively in use. There are also two versions of the Gallican Rite still being celebrated - the Ambrosian Rite, which survives in one parish in its ancient form, and throughout the rest of Milan in its modified post-Conciliar form, and the Mozarabic Rite, which in the late 19th century was still being celebrated in five parishes in Toledo, but which now is only being celebrated in a dedicated chapel in the Cathedral of Toledo, and in a nearby monastery. However, it is preserved as a living tradition, and Pope St. John Paul II celebrated it at St. Peter’s Basilica in the Vatican in the 1990s, which is thrilling.

Several of the uses of the Roman Rite compiled by religious orders survive however, including some which I thought were extinct, but which are actually alive and kicking. In addition to the aforementioned Dominican Rite, there is the textually very similar Carthusian Rite, which is used by the Carthusian monks, and which differs from the Dominican RIte mainly in terms of rubrics and the quality of the hymns - Carthusians sing Gregorian Chant in a very mournful way, whereas the Dominican form of Gregorian Chant is particularly bright and cheerful. Then there is the Norbertine Use, and there is a Norbertine monastery of St. Michael located in Southern California I hope to visit, and the Carmelite Use, there being a Carmelite monastery in Wyoming which I also hope to visit, as a well as a mainly Vietnamese parish in upstate New York whose priest is a Carmelite and frequently celebrates the Carmelite mass. And there are a few others if I recall.

At any rate, with the Tridentine Mass, the beauty of it is that no matter where you went in the world, you can always follow the it, since the liturgy is basically invariant, aside from the propers, and so as long as you have a hand missal or remember the text, you are covered. And this is also the case with the Dominican, Carmelite and other uses of the religious orders, and so some people who might have a close relative in one of the orders or a particular attachment to it would have a Dominican hand missal rather than a Tridentine. At any rate, the actual content of the mass doesn’t vary that much, since they were all very similar, and a non-Tridentine mass was easy to avoid, and these days, most places celebrating the Traditional Latin Mass make hand missals available to those in attendance. The parish near me has beautiful missals that I mentioned before, the Missal of St. Edmund Campion, which I highly recommend and would like to have a copy of in my library, as it is such a beautiful book, being large, in full color, with photographs, and the English translation being in traditional English.

With the Novus Ordo Missae, there are four different Eucharistic prayers in routine use, plus at least two others for specialized use, and numerous options avaiable to the celebrant, which makes it much more complex. Orthodox liturgies are that complex, so I don’t mind the increased complexity, but the Orthodox also tend to make use of the vernacular in such a way as to teach other languages to the people, as mentioned previously, and also many parishes do things in a very standardized way - for example, even though there are 86 anaphoras, or Eucharistic prayers, in the Syriac Orthodox liturgy, most parishes use only one of them, and likewise the Copts will typically only use one of their three anaphoras except on Pascha and a few other occasions, when they use the Anaphora of St. Gregory the Theologian instead of that of St. Basil, with the Anaphora of St. Cyril usually only being used midweek during Lent, if ever. The Coptic priest, unlike his Syriac Orthodox counterpart, has a choice of fraction prayers, but many will just use one (amusingly, the Syrian Fraction, which is basically the same one used in the Syriac Orthodox liturgy, is the most popular). However, the Copts and Syriacs have made their liturgies more accessible than even most Eastern Orthodox, by employing LCD screens on which the liturgy is translated in English, Arabic, and Syriac or Coptic as appropriate. And the Coptic and Syriac tends to be phonetically Romanized, so those wishing to sing along in Coptic and Syriac can do so without knowing Greek or Estrangelo script, respectively.

In the Eastern Orthodox church, the celebrant does not have very many choices - the Typikon of his jurisdiction, parish or monastery specifies pretty much everything, such as what hymns will be sung, what divine liturgy will be used, et cetera.

So I guess my point is that while we can handle the increased complexity, the argument of those Roman Catholics who love the traditional mass, many of whom grew up with it and had to endure painfully the transition to the Novus Ordo Missae, that the old mass has the advantage of universal accessibility, is a pretty compelling one. Since the hymns were standardized like in the Eastern Orthodox liturgy, once one knows what “Gloria in excelsis Deo” or “Agnus Dei” mean in English, following the Tridentine mass is a piece of cake in any country. For example, the Gospel read at the end of the mass - that’s always John 1:1-14, the Last Gospel, which is always read at the end of a Solemn High Mass or a Missa Cantata (which is a mass that has a choir and is sung, but lacks a deacon or subdeacon, and which is the most frequently encountered form of Traditional Latin Mass). The Armenians also picked up that custom, as did the Maronites, and it also spread to the Ambrosian Rite.

Although interestingly, it was historically not a part of the Dominican Mass - it was not universal in the 14th century, when the Dominican liturgy was compiled as a standard for use by Dominican friars throughout Europe, so they would not have to learn the local uses, and for many years they resisted its inclusion, and even after being forced to include the Last Gospel, many Dominican priests would show their disapproval by, for instance, extinguishing the candles while it was being read, which I find amusingly passive/aggressive. I feel that the Dominicans should have been allowed to govern their own liturgy. In Eastern Orthodoxy, most monasteries have fairly wide latitude to control their typikon, so for example, in my church, the OCA, the New Skete monastery, which used to be Byzantine Rite Catholic but joined us several decades ago, has an experimental liturgy that was intended to revive aspects of the old Cathedral Use of the Hagia Sophia, and also feature various simplifications, so as to suit the monks very active lifestyle, which is centered around breeding German Shepherd dogs. I have one of their Euchologions, with the Divine Liturgies of St. James, St. Basil and St. John Chrysostom, and they are following a very different order of worship than what one will find in any of our parishes.

Likewise, the rubrics followed in our Albanian or Romanian parishes are very different from those followed in our Russian, American or Native Alaskan parishes.

However, the Divine Liturgy is such that once you know it, it is very easy to follow no matter where you go, much like the old Roman mass or the traditional Anglican BCP.

CS Lewis wrote a very good article about the importance of not capriciously changing the liturgy, due to the problems it causes the laity, which I strongly agree with: C. S. Lewis on the Theology and Practice of Worship
Interesting essay bro.
 
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We had a priest who was removed from office in West End in Brisbane in 2009.


He is still running a "St. Mary's in Exile" congregation operating out of the Trades and Labour Council building which is quite close to his original stamping ground.

It's a pity in one way as he was apparently doing a lot of good work with the poor and marginalised.

There are penalties for contentious teaching and actions. But it's not the medieval church when heretics could be burnt at the stake.
 
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The Liturgist

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There’s an Eastern Orthodox icon of St. Nicholas slapping Arius, which has hilariously been turned into an animated GIF:

St Nick GIF - St Nick Arius - Discover & Share GIFs



Note that the Orthodox Church does not permit, in accordance with the ancient canons, going back to the very early church, clergy slapping anyone, and St. Nicholas was immediately deposed for this action, but later St. Constantine and several other bishops had a dream that he should be given, so when he appeared the following day and tearfully begged the forgiveness of the bishops, and was reinstated.

However, the Orthodox Church continues to maintain a strict ban on clergy striking people. Whereas if I recall in the Middle Ages, there were Catholic monks who would flog people for penitence, which is a violation of the ancient canons (although allowed under the Rule of St. Benedict).

For example, the whipping of King Henry II for instigating the martyrdom of St. Thomas Beckett was a gross canonical violation, not as bad as inciting the murder of the Archbishop of Canterbury, but still, strictly prohibited, and the fact that the King agreed to it does not make it any more legitimate. Apostolic Canon 27/28 would require any clergy involved to be defrocked:

“If a bishop, presbyter, or deacon shall strike any of the faithful who have sinned, or of the unbelievers who have done wrong, with the intention of frightening them, we command that he be deposed. For our Lord has by no means taught us to do so, but, on the contrary, when he was smitten he smote not again, when he was reviled he reviled not again, when he suffered he threatened not.”

Now, granted, some of the monks may have been lay monks, but if every monk whipped him, clearly some of the monks were deacons or presbyters, according to the account I’ve read, since it states that every monk in the city whipped him, and that would extend to choir monks (monastic presbyters) and deacons, what we call hieromonks and hierodeacons in the Orthodox Church. So unless someone has specific information that the presbyters and deacons were not involved, simce Camom IX of the First-and-Second Synod in Constantinople in the 9th century makes it clear that even ordering others to strike someone as punishment for sin is wrong, this would have been a violation.

I am soon going to be doing a series on the ancient canon law as found in the Orthodox Pedalion (Rudder), the Rudder having been compiled by St. Nicodemus the Hagiorite in the 18th century as the most expansive Eastern Orthodox nomocanon (although it should be noted, it is the basis for, but not the actual, nomocanon, of some jurisdictions), and I hope to compare it to the ancient Roman Catholic decretals, which referenced many of the same sources, as well as Oriental Orthodox canon law (if @dzheremi and @Tigran1245 were able to help me find English translations or Arabic and Armenian nomocanon texts which I could input into an LLM for translation so as to pull up the canons that are in force in the Coptic and Armenian churches, that would be very helfpul indeed).

But in the mean time we can still enjoy St. Nicholas having given Arius a well-deserved whooping, provided we bear in mind that this is not acceptable behavior for a clergy, and St. Nicholas did repent of it sincerely, and was forgiven and reinstated, but otherwise he would have lost his career for that slap, much like how General Patton lost command of the US Seventh Army in Sicilly for striking a soldier assumed to have battle fatigue (it later turned out that the soldier was in fact ill with a severe digestive analysis, so it was not merely psychology that put him in the hospital tent), an act for which Patton did sincerely apologize, but that was not enough. Fortunately, the repentant general was given command of the US Third Army, where he proceeded to do an awesome job on the Nazis, setting a record for the amount of territory captured in a given period of time as his forces, following the Battle of the Bulge, swept right across southern Germany, Austria and into the Czech Republic where they linked up with the Red Army, and then Patton became military governor of the American zone in Vienna, where he was responsible for saving the beautiful Lippizaner horses at the Winter Riding School for future generations to enjoy.
 
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This is the whole basis of my point, for without the religious doctrine there would be no possible pretext for the culture-based penalty. A clearer and more classical example would have the culture on the side of the heresy rather than the church, for in that case no clear question of motivation could arise.

For example, the clearer case would be the Orthodox bishop who sanctions his clergy for promoting a heresy in step with cultural values, rather than the Orthodox bishop who sanctions his clergy for promoting a heresy that opposes cultural values.

I could cite more specific cases where someone has been excommunicated for a doctrinal offense, but I don’t wish to do so, because I don’t want to create a stumbling block to the reconciliation of that person with the church. For example, I know of a former Orthodox priest who changed to a different church which is widely regarded as heretical and the bishops responded as one might expect, but I’m not going to get into the details of who that was, where they came from or where they went, since I hope for reconciliation in that case.

In the case of Matthew Heimbach on the other hand, his actions are widely known.
 
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dzheremi

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I am soon going to be doing a series on the ancient canon law as found in the Orthodox Pedalion (Rudder), the Rudder having been compiled by St. Nicodemus the Hagiorite in the 18th century as the most expansive Eastern Orthodox nomocanon (although it should be noted, it is the basis for, but not the actual, nomocanon, of some jurisdictions), and I hope to compare it to the ancient Roman Catholic decretals, which referenced many of the same sources, as well as Oriental Orthodox canon law (if @dzheremi and @Tigran1245 were able to help me find English translations or Arabic and Armenian nomocanon texts which I could input into an LLM for translation so as to pull up the canons that are in force in the Coptic and Armenian churches, that would be very helfpul indeed).

While this is very much not an area of specialization of mine, I believe what you are looking for with regard to the Copts would be found most closely in the canons of al-Safi ibn al 'Assal, from the 13th century. There very well may be a more "official" translation of them somewhere, but I don't know where, so in the meantime, this preliminary English translation by Dr. William A. Hanna ought to get you started. Fair warning, however, as it rather long at over 200 pages, and comes with several disclaimers which may frustrate an easy reading. Some useful background on the nature of some of the "inaccuracies" mentioned therein (e.g., discrepancies in the number of canons attributed to a council) could perhaps be found in other sources, such as here and here.
 
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The Liturgist

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as it rather long at over 200 pages, and comes with several disclaimers which may frustrate an easy reading.

Well the Rudder of St. Nicomedus clocks in at 1,977 pages and is filled with commentary, concords, explanatory notes, cross references and definitions, and it is fairly simple compared to the Roman Catholic Decretals, so I am not expecting nomocanons to be user-friendly by any means. I think the Roman Catholic Code of Canon Law and the Code of Canon Law for the Eastern Catholic Churches are even more verbose, although they are probably better organized than the Rudder, since we like to joke that the Eastern Orthodox don’t believe in the concept of organized religion! xD

At any rate, thank you for the link my friend, I think that will get me started in the right direction.
 
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Celibate
Fair enough. Now that I'm this many years out of college, you couldn't pay me to read a 200+ page pdf in full, but perhaps your eyes have been kinder to you over the years than mine have. :D

I am blessed with very good eyesight and very good iPads. :)

I am thankful - I had a disturbance in my vision a few months back, involving sluggish focusing, but through the grace of God I was able to clear it through some exercises using a magnifying glass.

Prayers that my vision remains functional are appreciated.
 
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