Why does hell exist?

[FineLinen]

What is Destruction

Apollumi

Apollumi=

Signifies to destroy utterly (middle voice to perish).

Loss not of being, but of well being as in>>>

1. Wine skins (marring)

2. Lost sheep (lost to the shepherd).

3. Of spiritual destitution.

4. Of the lost son.

5. Perishing of food.

6. Perishing of gold

 

[Tyler52]

Indeedy. It's about those alive in Christ coming out to look upon those still dead in their sins, a morass of stinking corruption.

But that's not the end of the story. Rev 21-22 teaches that the nations consumed by fire (20:9) then are saved and inherit (21:26-27), and reprobates are encouraged to wash their robes in Lamb's blood (aka the life of Christ aka the lake of fire) (22:14) and answer the invitation to enter the City (22:17) through its ever-open gates. (21:25)

This is confirmed in Ez 47:9-10 where the river of life flows into the Dead Sea, giving everything life and fishermen will haul them in. (Beautiful passage btw, soak it in.)

Also, the general run of Isaiah 60-66 and Daniel 7 is salvific. A couple of particular verses you cite need to be read in context. Those ominous-sounding verses are superseded in Rev 21:4 no more death (aka the last enemy) and 22:3 no more curse. Only the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ upon ALL (22:21). Now that's the total victory of Christ brought home in the age of Kingdom come!

So do yourself a favour - read the narrative, test your assumptions. Pray and contemplate God to see if He's really planning to bbq the many. I hope you'll be rejoicing at the righteous prospect of God being all in all!

Quick question, do you believe in the Revelation of Peter

 

[Der Alte]

You didn't answer my question. Who is doing the abhorring? Those in heaven? You? So what then - just leave them in torment? Is that Christian?

Who said that some would awake to everlasting abhorring? I just looked and that is the word of God spoken by an angel. That must be who is doing the abhorring.
Daniel also said "Many shall purify themselves, and make themselves white, and be refined; but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand; but they that are wise shall understand." vs, 10

 

[Der Alte]

duplicate

 

[Lazarus Short]

Indeedy. It's about those alive in Christ coming out to look upon those still dead in their sins, a morass of stinking corruption.

But that's not the end of the story. Rev 21-22 teaches that the nations consumed by fire (20:9) then are saved and inherit (21:26-27), and reprobates are encouraged to wash their robes in Lamb's blood (aka the life of Christ aka the lake of fire) (22:14) and answer the invitation to enter the City (22:17) through its ever-open gates. (21:25)

This is confirmed in Ez 47:9-10 where the river of life flows into the Dead Sea, giving everything life and fishermen will haul them in. (Beautiful passage btw, soak it in.)

Also, the general run of Isaiah 60-66 and Daniel 7 is salvific. A couple of particular verses you cite need to be read in context. Those ominous-sounding verses are superseded in Rev 21:4 no more death (aka the last enemy) and 22:3 no more curse. Only the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ upon ALL (22:21). Now that's the total victory of Christ brought home in the age of Kingdom come!

So do yourself a favour - read the narrative, test your assumptions. Pray and contemplate God to see if He's really planning to bbq the many. I hope you'll be rejoicing at the righteous prospect of God being all in all!

But...that's not the end of the story - the end is found in First Corinthians 15:22-28. I have asked many times on the www, but have yet to be given an answer: If death is the last enemy to be destroyed, and it will be, how is anyone then still dead and/or in hell? No, it's not a trick question.

 

[Der Alte]

Bible tells that person is destroyed in hell, I don’t believe anyone who is destroyed suffers.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

The Bible does NOT say that a person is destroyed in hell.
What God created He is certainly capable of destroying but not one verse says that God has or ever will destroy any person in hell.

Would loving God allow evil to live forever and make all suffer eternally? I don’t think so, I believe love is the reason why God ends evil one day.

What anyone thinks or believes that God will/will not do is not relevant. What does the Bible say, book, chapter and verse please?
Here is what Jesus Himself said.

Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."​

Jesus is quoted as saying the word death 17 times in the NT. If Jesus had meant "eternal death" that is what He would have said.
In Matt 18:6 Jesus speaks of a punishment worse than death.

Matthew 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.​

In these two verses, Jn 3:15, 10:28, Jesus contrasts "eternal life" with "should not/never perish."
Some people say that "aionios," the word translated "eternal," means "age" and never means "eternal."
But in these two verses "aionios" is definitely defined as "everlasting, unending" etc.
In vs. 10:28 "eternal" is also contrasted with "neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
"Age" is not the opposite of "never perish" or not "pluck them out of my hand" only "eternal" is.

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.​

 

[Der Alte]

But...that's not the end of the story - the end is found in First Corinthians 15:22-28. I have asked many times on the www, but have yet to be given an answer: If death is the last enemy to be destroyed, and it will be, how is anyone then still dead and/or in hell? No, it's not a trick question.

Revelation 21:4-6
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
(6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:8
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

Rev 21:4-8 is a continuous narrative. No one can say that any latter verse occurred before a former verse.
In vs. 4 the one on the throne says "no more death."
In vs. 5 "I make all things new."
In vs. 6 "It is done"
In. vs. 8 After He has said "no more death." He then says that eight groups of people "will have their part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Quick question, do you believe in the Revelation of Peter

Don't know anything about it except what I just quick scroogled then. If it was as they claim endorsed by Clement of Alexandria, I might check it out. Why do you ask?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Daniel also said "Many shall purify themselves, and make themselves white, and be refined; but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand; but they that are wise shall understand." vs, 10

Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy.” Rev 22:11.

So you'd agree there's at least a sliver of hope for the sinner in the afterlife to 'make good'?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

But...that's not the end of the story - the end is found in First Corinthians 15:22-28. I have asked many times on the www, but have yet to be given an answer: If death is the last enemy to be destroyed, and it will be, how is anyone then still dead and/or in hell? No, it's not a trick question.

That's a good point Laz. Once death the final enemy is consumed, LIFE MUST REIGN! So 'aionion' life, which takes its meaning from the context (ie finite age or infinite eternity), can only mean eternal once death has been put away and sin burned away, simply because there is no means to end it - unless you believe God's grace ends. And the HS headed this off at the pass in Rev 22:21 by reassuring us in the outro that the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ will be upon all. Amen!

So life wins by a process of elimination, everyone gets saved from sin, death, the devil and his cohorts, and all live happily everafter. It's the best ending ever. Why oh why can't most Christians at least entertain it as a hope?

 

[Lazarus Short]

That's a good point Laz. Once death the final enemy is consumed, LIFE MUST REIGN! So 'aionion' life, which takes its meaning from the context (ie finite age or infinite eternity), can only mean eternal once death has been put away and sin burned away, simply because there is no means to end it - unless you believe God's grace ends. And the HS headed this off at the pass in Rev 22:21 by reassuring us in the outro that the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ will be upon all. Amen!

So life wins by a process of elimination, everyone gets saved from sin, death, the devil and his cohorts, and all live happily everafter. It's the best ending ever. Why oh why can't most Christians at least entertain it as a hope?

Speaking of "sin burned away," see First Corinthians, chapter 3, verses 13 thru 15.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Speaking of "sin burned away," see First Corinthians, chapter 3, verses 13 thru 15.

Right on! Refine away the dross. 'Saved, yet as through fire' is our motto.

 

[FineLinen]

"To say that sin, assuming it to be opposed to God, has the power of creating a world antagonistic to God as everlasting as He is, attributes to it a power equal at least to His; since according to this view, souls whom God willed to be saved, and for whom Christ died, are held in bondage under the power of sin for ever; and all this in opposition to the Word of God, which says that God's Son was "manifested that He might destroy the works of the devil..." -Andrew Jukes

"To go on punishing for ever, simply for punishment's sake, shocks every sentiment of justice. And the case is so much worse when the punishment is really the prolongation of evil, when it is but making evil endless." -Thomas Allin, Christ Triumphant-

"The Almighty Maker of souls has various methods of restoring them to the divine image; it is impossible his power can fail; it is impossible for his image to be entirely obliterated; it is impossible that misery, sin, and discord can be eternal! –Alison R. Cockburn-

Impossible=

Incapable of having existence or of occurring / Not capable of being accomplished.

 

[FineLinen]

duplicate

"Christianity is not a religion. Christianity is the proclamation of the end of religion, not of a new religion, or even of the best of all religions. If the cross is the sign of anything, it's the sign that God has gone out of the religion business and solved all of the world's problems without requiring a single human being to do a single religious thing. What the cross is actually a sign of is the fact that religion can't do a thing about the world's problems - that it never did work and it never will."

Robert Farrar Capon

"Grace cannot prevail...until our lifelong certainty that someone is keeping score has run out of steam and collapsed."

 

[Der Alte]

Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy.” Rev 22:11.
So you'd agree there's at least a sliver of hope for the sinner in the afterlife to 'make good'?

Something is not clicking here. Please show me in Rev 22:11 where you get "there's at least a sliver of hope for the sinner in the afterlife to 'make good''?
Especially in light of,

Revelation 21:4-8
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
(6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
(7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

Rev 21:4-8 is a continuous narrative. One cannot say that any latter verse, in this passage, occurred before a former verse.
In vs. 4 the one on the throne says "no more death."
In vs. 5 "I make all things new."
In vs. 6 Jesus speaking, "It is done"
In. vs. 8 After the one on the throne has said "no more death." Jesus then says that eight groups of people "will have their part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
Where is that "sliver of hope for the sinner in the afterlife to 'make good'''?

 

[Der Alte]

Right on! Refine away the dross. 'Saved, yet as through fire' is our motto.

And yet another verse yanked out-of-context as a "proof text."

1 Corinthians 3:9-17
(9) For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
(10) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
(11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
(12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
(13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
(14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
(15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
(16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
(17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​

In this passage Paul is addressing “Laborers together with God,”God’s husbandry,””God’s building” vs. 9, who build on the foundation of Jesus Christ, vs. 10 not all mankind.
“Every man’s work,” vs. 13, is not all mankind but those who have built on the foundation of Jesus Christ, vs. 10.
In vs. 10 Paul warns them to be careful how they build on that foundation.
Christians are saved by grace not works. The mundane good works that unsaved people might do, does not qualify them for salvation.
Note it is NOT the man who is burned in the fire but the works.

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.​

Also 2 Timothy 1:9, 2 Timothy 3:5
This out-of-context proof text, vs. 15, does not guarantee unrighteous people salvation.
Note vs. 17 says whoever defiles the temple of God will be destroyed, not automatically saved by or in spite of their mundane works.

 

[FineLinen]

And yet another verse yanked out-of-context as a "proof text."

Dear D.A.: How many are made sinners? How many are made righteous?

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

4And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Polus = polus

All= all (the radical all)

 

[Tyler52]

Don't know anything about it except what I just quick scroogled then. If it was as they claim endorsed by Clement of Alexandria, I might check it out. Why do you ask?

You're basically preaching the addition made to it in the centuries after Clement died

 

[Shrewd Manager]

You're basically preaching the addition made to it in the centuries after Clement died

I like you Tyler52. You just keep coming back with zanier more off-the-wall ideas at avoiding the simple truth. God has given you the gift of persistence. Now it's discernment that's needed.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm