Why does hell exist?

[Tyler52]

An interpretation that shows YHWH to be a sadistic torturer i.e. the one that has people living in the horror of suffering for eternity.

It doesn't show him as a torturer. God is giving them life in prison.

 

[Der Alte]

Ok have it your own way, the nations aren't the enemies of God and don't come into the City repentant and worshiping God after not being devoured by fire and/or not turfed in the lake of fire. That's just not what happens and not in that order.

I have asked you for scripture. I see zero scripture.
On the other hand I quoted scripture and I don't see any scripture following the scripture I posted which states what you claim.
You are familiar with the concept of "context" are you not? Anybody can make the Bible say anything they want it to by quoting verses out of context.
Do you think that the verse(s) you are referring to somehow invalidate the verses I posted?
Please quote the scripture you are referring to so I can read what it says for myself not what you claim it says.

 

[GodLovesCats]

I get what you're saying and u agree with you about denominations (at least that's what I think you're getting at) and they shouldn't exist. I'm not trying to put you in a box, the first one was a joke, the second was just out of curiosity, It's not common to hear people use the proper names of Jesus and God (Yeshua and Yahweh).

The proper name for Jesus is totally off topic here, but I hate it when people use names for him that are not in English Bibles.

 

[GodLovesCats]

It doesn't show him as a torturer. God is giving them life in prison.

Life in prison is not eternal torment in any way. Every cell has a bed with a pillow and sheets, and blanket to keep the prisoner comfortable. There is a sink for him to wash his hands and face. They have windows. Prisoners are allowed to read books, write, and pray. Grooming supplies are provided. None of this can be seen in hell.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Nations=church

So the church gets gathered by satan to come up after the 1000 years and besiege the holy city? Given the state of the church today, I wouldn't be surprised. A blurred crusade.

The nations are obviously those who don't know God, eg:
The Gentiles shall see your righteousness, And all kings your glory...(Is 66:2)

If it didn't and everyone will be saved then why bother sending missionaries?

Better to not send missionaries at all who carry a false gospel: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. (Mt 23:15)

Will Nero and Hitler also be with us? What about Balaam and Ahab? Stalin and Pol Pot? Moa Zedong?

Why not? Is God incapable of setting anyone right? If he can save you and me, how tough are these guys? He'll even scrape up Jezebel and make an honest woman of her. And you know what - He'll give it all if need be. What do you think happened at Calvary - Jesus appeased God's wrath against us? No, Jesus showed us the radical extent God will go to to save even His enemies. Seen the son, seen the father. Don't worry, there are many mansions.

All of the people who were left in Sheol by Jesus?

Death and hades give up their dead for judgment. Into the lake for a treatment with life-giving waters, saved and on to the NJ for worship of the One True Living God and healing.

Furthermore why would God sending people to hell make him a terrorist? He's only enforcing the law.

Where in the Torah does it say that any crime merits eternal punishment. The basic rule is 'an eye for an eye'. Eternal hell is infinitely excessive. So God would actually be a corrupt and evil judge acting outside the law if He was to do that. The terror begins with the threat. Will not the judge of the whole earth do right?

 

[Anguspure]

God does not choose to torture people. It is the sinner's choice to not love Him.

That the sinner fails to Love God is his choice. The nature of the consequence is the choice of the Creator and reflects His nature. It is in His nature to protect His Loved ones and that is why there must be a separation, He is life itself and that is why separation from Him is painful and deadly. But he is also kind and merciful, and eternal torture does not fit with kind and merciful.

 

[Anguspure]

Life in prison is not eternal torment in any way. Every cell has a bed with a pillow and sheets, and blanket to keep the prisoner comfortable. There is a sink for him to wash his hands and face. They have windows. Prisoners are allowed to read books, write, and pray. Grooming supplies are provided. None of this can be seen in hell.

Although life at sea comes close.

 

[Anguspure]

Life in prison is not eternal torment in any way. Every cell has a bed with a pillow and sheets, and blanket to keep the prisoner comfortable. There is a sink for him to wash his hands and face. They have windows. Prisoners are allowed to read books, write, and pray. Grooming supplies are provided. None of this can be seen in hell.

Furthermore there is a hope of release and relationships that can be formed not just within the prison but, in return for good behavior and/or when Christians are around, on the outside as well.

 

[Anguspure]

I get what you're saying and u agree with you about denominations (at least that's what I think you're getting at) and they shouldn't exist. I'm not trying to put you in a box, the first one was a joke, the second was just out of curiosity, It's not common to hear people use the proper names of Jesus and God (Yeshua and Yahweh).

Appreciate your humour, but missed it sorry, no worries.
I've only learnt the implication of the names recently, and I guess the source is some sort of Hebrew roots stuff. I found much of it came a little to close to justification by following the law for comfort. Nevertheless the use of His name in Hebrew rings a bell with me and so I've started using them.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

But he is also kind and merciful, and eternal torture does not fit with kind and merciful.

Neither, dare I say it, does capital punishment...or are we talking involuntary euthanasia lol?

I've only learnt the implication of the names recently, and I guess the source is some sort of Hebrew roots stuff.

If the name Jesus is good enough for Yahusha, shouldn't it be good enough for us?

 

[Anguspure]

Neither, dare I say it, does capital punishment...or are we talking involuntary euthanasia lol?

I hear you!

If the name Jesus is good enough for Yahusha, shouldn't it be good enough for us?

The recent reading I have done draws a question mark around the origin of the Greek name "Iesous" and points out that it is a masculine rendering of the name "Ieso", the Greek goddess of healing, no less. "Iesous" appears to have been a convenient translation (is it normal to translate names?) that may have made Yehushua more palatable to the Greeks. As I say, rings a bell for me, and although we know who we are referring to and speaking to, and He is full of grace, it strikes me as a bit off that we do not call Him by His given name.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I hear you!

Ok 'nuff said.

the origin of the Greek name "Iesous" and points out that it is a masculine rendering of the name "Ieso", the Greek goddess of healing, no less. "Iesous" appears to have been a convenient translation

Yes, that's my understanding, it's all derivation from pronuniciations - Yahushua to Yeshu to Iesu to Jesu to Jesus. Same with YHVH to Yahuah to Iehovah to Jehovah. Still, some people treat the issue as an essential precondition for salvation!

it strikes me as a bit off that we do not call Him by His given name.

True, could say Jesus is just the English pronunciation. And God is an Englishman after all!

 

[Anguspure]

Ok 'nuff said.
Yes, that's my understanding, it's all derivation from pronuniciations - Yahusua to Yeshu to Iesu to Jesu to Jesus. Same with YHVH to Yahuah to Iehovah to Jehovah. Still, some people treat the issue as an essential precondition for salvation!

I know what you mean and I also find that off putting. Correct enough what they point out but some risk putting themselves in the box with the Judaizers of Galatia.

True, could say Jesus is just the English pronunciation. And God is an Englishman after all!

Except that it is Joshua that is the English pronunciation of Yehushua.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Correct enough what they point out but some risk putting themselves in the box with the Judaizers of Galatia.

To my mind it's a bit 'holier-than-thou' and 'dead letter over live spirit' to place too much emphasis on it. So leaven of Pharisees maybe.

Except that it is Joshua that is the English pronunciation of Yehushua.

Can't get one past you bro. Still, we got to Israel via Greece, and who could put up with the confusion? Certainly the OT Joshua is a type of Jesus in many ways, but let's keep them separated shall we?

 

[Tyler52]

So the church gets gathered by satan to come up after the 1000 years and besiege the holy city? Given the state of the church today, I wouldn't be surprised. A blurred crusade.

The nations are obviously those who don't know God, eg:
The Gentiles shall see your righteousness, And all kings your glory...(Is 66:2)

I'm sure I've already said this, but apparently you didn't get the memo or you like ignoring my points, the nations in the city are not and nations who fought against God, they are dead. And yes the gentiles will see God's glory at the judgment. Furthermore the healing waters are for Israel and the (real) Church of Jesus Christ.



[/QUOTE] Better to not send missionaries at all who carry a false gospel: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. (Mt 23:15)[/QUOTE]

Ok, that's nice, but I'm not a Pharisees nor a scribe, and yes I know who you're talking about (the institutionalized Church). Furthermore, what's it matter if you're a child of hell or not if you get into the kingdom no matter what?


[/QUOTE]Why not? Is God incapable of setting anyone right? If he can save you and me, how tough are these guys? He'll even scrape up Jezebel and make an honest woman of her. And you know what - He'll give it all if need be. What do you think happened at Calvary - Jesus appeased God's wrath against us? No, Jesus showed us the radical extent God will go to to save even His enemies. Seen the son, seen the father. Don't worry, there are many mansions.[/QUOTE]
He won't because they're dead. They didn't except Jesus (our king and final sin sacrifice). He died so the sins of believers could be forgiven, and so they could be called the sons of God

[/QUOTE]Death and hades give up their dead for judgment. Into the lake for a treatment with life-giving waters, saved and on to the NJ for worship of the One True Living God and healing.[/QUOTE]

No, Revelation says judgment only, not healing waters. It never says anything about healing waters. Mark 9:48 48where "'the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.'

[/QUOTE]Where in the Torah does it say that any crime merits eternal punishment. The basic rule is 'an eye for an eye'. Eternal hell is infinitely excessive. So God would actually be a corrupt and evil judge acting outside the law if He was to do that. The terror begins with the threat. Will not the judge of the whole earth do right?[/QUOTE]
The Torah is God's instruction on how the Israelites are to deal with each other and how they are supposed to enforce the law, it's not how God distributes justice. It also only deals with consequences of this life, not the next.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

the nations in the city are not and nations who fought against God, they are dead.

The nations get undeadified Tyler. They get vivified and go on up. In Rev 20:9 all the nations of the earth are gathered to attack Jerusalem. They get the baptism of fire.

It never says anything about healing waters.

You're right. It says healing leaves in Rev 22:2. It's Ezekiel 47 that speaks of the river of life that brings everything in the Dead Sea to life.

And I'll see your Mark 9:48 and raise it a Rev 22:3. Bring on the worms, they're here to help!

It also only deals with consequences of this life, not the next.

So is God a hypocrite?

 

[Tyler52]

Life in prison is not eternal torment in any way. Every cell has a bed with a pillow and sheets, and blanket to keep the prisoner comfortable.There is a sink for him to wash his hands and face. They have windows. Prisoners are allowed to read books, write

I waswmaking a Metaphor. Words can't describe the the horrors of hell, nevermind Gahanna

and pray. .

Oh yes, if you can talk in hell, I'm sure that you can pray. However, it doesn't mean that anyone is listening.

 

[Tyler52]

The nations get undeadified Tyler. They get vivified and go on up. In Rev 20:9 all the nations of the earth are gathered to attack Jerusalem. They get the baptism of fire.

No, they die in the fire, show me scripture that says God brought them back to life.

You're right. It says healing leaves in Rev 22:2.

Yes, they are for us, not those in Gahanna, nor does it say that it is for non believers.

It's Ezekiel 47 that speaks of the river of life that brings everything in the Dead Sea to life.

Thank you for pointing to Jesus in the Old Testament.

And I'll see your Mark 9:48 and raise it a Rev 22:3. Bring on the worms, they're here to help!

They're there to eat you!

So is God a hypocrite?

That isn't hypocrisy,so no. Explain to me how it is please. Then explain how the wages of sin is death.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

No, they die in the fire, show me scripture that says God brought them back to life.

Were going round in circles. Every mention of the nations. They were ALL consumed in Rev 20:9, so how do the come back later?

By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, (21:24)

Yes, they are for us, not those in Gahanna, nor does it say that it is for non believers.

For the nations. And yes, most people. The church should already bein heaven, having mostly avoided the GWT judgment.

Thank you for pointing to Jesus in the Old Testament.

My pleasure. You might notice that Ez 47:1-12 is the prophecy of which Rev 21-22 is the fulfillment.

They're there to eat you!

To eat the sin and clean us up.

Explain to me how it is please. Then explain how the wages of sin is death.

Hypocrite if He says you judge by one measure, and then He applies another.

The wages of sin is death, not eternal damnation. And when death and sin are destroyed, what's left - LIFE.

 

[Tyler52]

Were going round in circles. Every mention of the nations. They were ALL consumed in Rev 20:9, so how do the come back later?

Again, they didn't the nations in the city are the ones who followed God, all other nations are dead because they followed Satan. Why would the king trust rebels and let them in the city?

By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, (21:24)

Yes God's glory will illuminate the earth, and the remaining nations will walk by his light.

For the nations. And yes, most people. The church should already bein heaven, having mostly avoided the GWT judgment.

The members who have died the first death, yes they are in heaven. The ones are the earth are not dead. Those who converted after the rapture are still on Earth.

My pleasure. You might notice that Ez 47:1-12 is the prophecy of which Rev 21-22 is the fulfillment.

My bad, I see what you're referencing now.

To eat the sin and clean us up.

No, they eat your flesh. Scripture doesn't say that they eat your sins, that describes purgatory, which is only a theory that only Roman Catholic believe.

Hypocrite if He says you judge by one measure, and then He applies another.

That's not hypocrisy, that's being a king. Kings don't let citizens administer lasting justice. Kings to let minor courts deal with serious crimes. Furthermore, God does not ignore pleas for justice.

The wages of sin is death, not eternal damnation. And when death and sin are destroyed, what's left - LIFE.

Gahanna and the kingdom. The believers to the kingdom, and the sinners to Gahanna. The unbelievers will be considered as dogs.
Revelation 22:14-16 NRSV
Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they will have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by the gates. [15] Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. [16] "It is I, Jesus, who sent my angel to you with this testimony for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."