Why does hell exist?

[S.O.J.I.A.]

I am sorry I am unsure of your posts meaning

then we're even

 

[Vicky gould]

then we're even

Have I offended you? I know Matthew 25 : 41 is tough and I would be very happy to explain my meaning of my post.

 

[bbbbbbb]

It is a pity that this thread did not include a poll. Given the fact that modern life is driven by polls and the media, we could have determined, by popular opinion, the truth of this essential doctrine of Christianity.

 

[Anguspure]

I appreciate this rosy opinion but you have failed to address anything in my post.
Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

Death is far from rosy, and meeting ones demise by burning even less so.
What advantage is their in anybodies punishment unless it is restorative or restitutional? The doctrine of eternal conscious life in hell meets neither criteria. Certainly it will not be satisfying in any way to the children of God. Bad enough that hell will be visible to us forever without the thought that our loved ones and not so loved ones writhe in eternal torment withing the flames.
The only criteria that is met by hell is the removal of sin and evil from creation, and this criteria is met irrespective of whether those thus disposed of are conscious of it or not.

 

[Anguspure]

Without sin and eternal suffering there is no such thing as mercy. Or without hate, there is no such thing as grace. No sin, = no concept of righteousness, or justice..... God created all for his glory. But since we want to sin, we incur the guilt and punishment.

Where is the mercy in eternal conscious torment? If you said "Without sin and death", I would agree with you but there is no possibility of mercy in any form of inescapable conscious suffering.

 

[Anguspure]

It is a pity that this thread did not include a poll. Given the fact that modern life is driven by polls and the media, we could have determined, by popular opinion, the truth of this essential doctrine of Christianity.

That is what we are here to discuss. In any case hell as eternal conscious torment may well be the mainstream view, in which case a poll would force us to agree with the doctrine. But it is far from an essential doctrine and the high profile that this merciless and cruel doctrine has is a stumbling block to many.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

God is the Creator of all things. He loves everything He created, according to Genesis 1. But God hates Satan and demons and does not want anyone to live in the lake of fire that He created. I don't get it. My mom said a loving God would not create hell because He does not want people to suffer eternally, so she does not believe it exists. Why isn't this true?

We don't see hell mentioned in the creation account in Genesis (probably would have rendered creation 'not so very good'). Nor do we see it in the OT (only gloomy Sheol), nor do we see it in the NT. In the NT we see various concepts often conflated and hyperbolised by the fevered imagination of mankind throughout history as this rotten paganised hell, ie Gehenna, lake of fire, Hades and Tartaroo (ie not a vain marsupial).

Jesus speaks mostly of Gehenna, and a couple times of Hades. Prime examples are Matt 5:22, where it's call a bro 'raca', go to Sanhedrin, call a bro 'fool' go to Gehenna, and Matt 10:28 fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna.

But what's our Lord talking about here? He's talking to believers about the principles of good relationships. He's saying if you don't resolve disputes here, God will have to fix it in Gehenna. It's about discipline and correction for restoring broken relationships. If you read on to Matt 10:29-30, you see Jesus goes on to say in effect God loves you He won't destroy you, and in v.31 says 'So do not be afraid'. Same deal in Matt 5:22 - reconcile yourself now, or it'll happen later and you'll lose the uttermost farthing - but you'll get out of there - saved as through fire, as Paul famously puts it in 1 Cor 3:15.

Newsflash - God is GOOD. Means He doesn't create hell on the hush-hush, and then spring it on people later - surprise, Jesus saved you from sin and death, only to reveal a far worse fate awaits! Bwahhahaahaa. That would be pure EVIL. Moral compass, hello?

So it's everywhere in scriptures. Go follow the path of the nations from Rev 20:15 til finish. You'll see they get consumed by fire from heaven, presumed thrown in lake of fire, emerge from lake of fire clean, enter City of God to worship and be healed by leaves of tree of life. It's really not an overly-complex narrative to grasp. It's called 'Good News' - you might have heard of it?

So for the idea of hell of eternal damnation, the answer in accordance with scripture is a resounding 'yes we have no bananas'. And keep in mind who most needs serious discipline and correction (Mt 23:15):

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

That is what we are here to discuss. In any case hell as eternal conscious torment may well be the mainstream view, in which case a poll would force us to agree with the doctrine. But it is far from an essential doctrine and the high profile that this merciless and cruel doctrine has is a stumbling block to many.

Sadly you'll find that many a church statement of faith espouses ECT as essential doctrine. That in my humble view qualifies it as a Babylon church.

 

[Anguspure]

Sadly you'll find that many a church statement of faith espouses ECT as essential doctrine. That in my humble view qualifies it as a Babylon church.

For the most part I tend to agree.
https://come-out-of-her-my-people.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Come-out-of-Her-my-people.pdf
http://www.robertwr.com/resurrection.pdf
http://www.theology.kiev.ua/images/afiles/0000412.pdf

 

[Shrewd Manager]

For the most part I tend to agree.
https://come-out-of-her-my-people.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Come-out-of-Her-my-people.pdf
http://www.robertwr.com/resurrection.pdf
http://www.theology.kiev.ua/images/afiles/0000412.pdf

Some interesting reading, thanks, I'll need to graze on those awhile. My thesis in broad terms is that God's displeasure for the ECT smear (that really took hold once Romanisation/ temporalism kicked in with Augustine and Justinian) percolated in Luther's complaints (remember the indulgences), but the reformers utterly failed to address the root issue, and in many ways doubled-down on the problem by carnalising and paganising hell all the more. Now look at the a mess! Lord have mercy on us.

 

[lismore]

God is the Creator of all things. He loves everything He created, according to Genesis 1. But God hates Satan and demons and does not want anyone to live in the lake of fire that He created. I don't get it. My mom said a loving God would not create hell because He does not want people to suffer eternally, so she does not believe it exists. Why isn't this true?

You spend eternity somewhere. Would it be fair for the righteous, those who have humbled themselves and repented to accept God's salvation, to spend eternity with those who hate God and will not repent? To spend eternity with extremely dangerous persons? This is not being holier than thou, it's just being realistic. If the unrepentant were sent to heaven the cycle of sin and fall would start all over again. It will be Hell wherever the wicked are. God Bless

 

[Anguspure]

You spend eternity somewhere. Would it be fair for the righteous, those who have humbled themselves and repented to accept God's salvation, to spend eternity with those who hate God and will not repent? To spend eternity with extremely dangerous persons? This is not being holier than thou, it's just being realistic. If the unrepentant were sent to heaven the cycle of sin and fall would start all over again. It will be Hell wherever the wicked are. God Bless

The argument seems to be more about whether those who are cast into the lake of fire (1)live forever in the fire or (2)are consumed and die.

The first position assumes unconditional immortality and raise questions about the nature of God.

The second position affirms resurrection of the dead and affirms that although death is the necessary penalty for sin, that the character of God is not sadistic or vengeful.

 

[Dave L]

Do you have some scripture to back that up?

“The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,” Romans 5:20 (NASB95)

sin reveals and magnifies grace.

 

[Dave L]

This is an acceptable reason for us to create attributes that oppose the nature of God.....not for God to create it. God needs and has no opposition....for the Lord is One and besides Him there is no others.

Anything contrary is created, successfully, i should add, in/by our own minds......maybe, as you suggest, because we need to sit in darkness, before appreciating light.

But how can his creation know hima part from sin?

“The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,” Romans 5:20 (NASB95)

sin reveals and magnifies grace.

 

[Tyler52]

When Jesus chose not to condemn the woman caught in the act.....would you say this made Him a bad guy? Should He have punished her instead because He is Good and He caught one in sin?

He didn't punish her there because he is merciful. He also told her to stop sinning, because he knew that what she was doing was unlawful. Transgression against the law is death, but because God is merciful, he sent his son to die for us and be the final sin sacrifice for us, so that way we can be forgiven, and because of him, we can now thirst to be righteous. However, we must accept Jesus's sacrifice first, then we can forgive him and follow him.

Edit: I meant to say he can forgive us and we can follow him. Sorry for the typo
Edit: the penalty for transgression against the law is death, I'm sorry again.

 

[Vicky gould]

He didn't punish her there because he is merciful. He also told her to stop sinning, because he knew that what she was doing was unlawful. Transgression against the law is death, but because God is merciful, he sent his son to die for us and be the final sin sacrifice for us, so that way we can be forgiven, and because of him, we can now thirst to be righteous. However, we must accept Jesus's sacrifice first, then we can forgive him and follow him.

 

[Tyler52]

I meant to say he can forgive us and then we can follow him, please check the original post again, I corrected the errors, sorry.

 

[Vicky gould]

I meant to say he can forgive us and then we can follow him, please check the original post again, I corrected the errors, sorry.

Glad to meet you. my error

 

[Der Alte]

begin

<AP>Death is far from rosy, and meeting ones demise by burning even less so.
What advantage is their in anybodies punishment unless it is restorative or restitutional? The doctrine of eternal conscious life in hell meets neither criteria. Certainly it will not be satisfying in any way to the children of God. Bad enough that hell will be visible to us forever without the thought that our loved ones and not so loved ones writhe in eternal torment withing the flames.
The only criteria that is met by hell is the removal of sin and evil from creation, and this criteria is met irrespective of whether those thus disposed of are conscious of it or not.<AP>

end

Once again you totally ignored my post and substituted your assumptions/presuppositions.
Which, if any, scripture establishes the criteria that punishment is restorative or restitutional?
Who decides if the criteria is met, men or God?
Where does scripture say that hell will be visible forever to the saints in heaven?
As I showed by quoting one ECF punishment is not punishment unless those who receive it are conscious despite what some Christians believe today.
Therefore eternal punishment meant exactly that punishment that is eternal.
Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the NT. If He had intended to say eternal death that is what He would have said.

 

[Tyler52]

Glad to meet you. my error

I deserve that