Why does hell exist?

[Shrewd Manager]

and laid great stones in the cave's mouth, which remain until this very day.

Thank God for Jesus, of whom Elisha was a type, turns up:

Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance [...] When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!" The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face. Jesus said to them, "Take off the grave clothes and let him go.
(John 11:38, 43)

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Hillsage]

1 Thessalonians 4:13
/others which have no hope

1 Thessalonians 4:17
/so shall we ever be with the Lord

ROM 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved in hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

I don't even expect you to grasp where I'm going to be coming from, but I'm going to throw out something just to let you know your litmus use of "hope" is far lacking in 'the context' you are using it for IMO.

Based upon the above verses, were these people saved in their 'spirit"? YES! they were. As a matter of fact in the AV of 1611 the translators didn't even capitalize "the spirit" in verse 23 believing it talked about 'our spirit'. IOW these people being written to were spirit saved which you can't see, in the HOPE of overcoming the last enemy of physical death which you can see. Verse 24 says we're talking about 'redeeming back our body' this side of judgment with the spirit of Christ in us. Jesus died a physical body death on the cross so that we could "destroy the last enemy of physical death". He didn't destroy death, he overcame it after dying. And if we don't attain the immortal redeemed body we SHOULD BE hoping for...we too shall "sleep" and await a redeemed body in the age to come.

ROM 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; YLT "Life age-during"...or lasting to the end of the age.

The apostles actually thought John was going to make it.

JOH 21:23 The saying spread abroad among the brethren that this disciple was not to die;

Indeed, there is no historical account that John ever did die. There is historical record that he was thrown alive into boiling oil and did NOT DIE though.

The apostle Paul was striving for this RESURRECTION this side of glory also. But to attaint it you have to achieved "perfection" of the salvation of your soul.

PHI 3:10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.

I'm going to end with a big piece of meat concerning the depth of what Paul just said. Read this passage in Phillipians and realize that there are two different 'deaths' spoken of and two different resurrections.

Phil 3:10 ressurection = anastasis and death = thanatos
Phil 3:11 ressurection = exanastasis and dead = nekros

0386 ANASTASIS: a standing up again, i.e. (lit.) a resurrection from death (individual, gen. or by impl. (its author)), or (fig.) a (moral) recovery (of spiritual truth)
2288 THANTOS: (prop. an adj. used as a noun) death (lit. or fig.)

1815 EXANASTASIS: a rising from death
3498 NEKROS: dead (lit. or fig.; also as noun)

And this is all I'm going to say about this subject which completely refutes your use of the "hope" scriptures as far as I'm concerned. But it fits hand in glove with Universalism and the purpose of hell.

 

[Tyler52]

But if, as many like to say, hell is some kind of 'eternal separation' from God, then no, the lake of fire is the opposite. I invite you to do some berean sleuthing to locate the source of the fire in the lake. You'll find it comes straight from the very throne of God!

I agree, God is punishing people.

It is divine essence, theion means sulphur, a purifying agent like salt. And Jesus tells us everyone is salted with fire and salt is good. (Mk 9:49-50)

Mark 9:49-50 NASB
"For everyone will be salted with fire. [50] Salt is good; but if the salt becomes unsalty, with what will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another."
All will be salted with for(Christians with tribulations and trials, others in hell)
Also that was a warning, let's go back a bit:
Mark 9:42-48 NASB
"Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea. [43] If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, [44] [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] [45] If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell, [46] [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] [47] If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, [48] where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND the FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.

Pay close attention here,
Mark 9:48 NASB
where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND the FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.

The fire will not be quenched. It is eternal.

And the destruction of death and hades in the second death is also the death of sin in the holy fire. Meaning the sinner is regenerated and made anew, baptised with fire and spirit, as in 'die to self live to Christ'. See also the well-known sayings 'dead to Christ' and 'dead in one's sins'. Jesus overcame the power of death on the cross. This is the save treatment for the remnant.

Read Mark 9:42-50
Also, yes he died for all who will except the sacrifice that he made

Sounds paradoxical, but these are metaphors used throughout scripture, and in particular in apocalyptic books.

I've read the Bible

There will no longer be a satan. Only those renewed and restored in Christ.

Are you saying that Lucifer, the prince of demons will be saved.

 

[Der Alte]

What did I misunderstand?

See "wildly speculative" below.

That's a wildly speculative interpretation which smacks of a desperate attempt to avoid the obvious.

Prove it from scripture. Here is my post again. Want to try again?

Revelation 6:8
And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

And I said there are two living beings who can be thrown some into the LoF and can die and their power to kill ended. I refer to them as the angel of death and the demon of hell, they be thrown into the LoF and can die.
Unlike physical death, the point in time end of life, which has no physical property and cannot be literally thrown anywhere and cannot die.
And "hell" if it refers to the grave which are empty holes cannot be thrown anywhere and cannot die or the place of punishment which could be thrown but is not a living being and cannot die, sound familiar?​

Death, meaning carnal-mindedness/ dead in sins (Eph 2:1 etc) is destroyed, so that only death to self, alive to Christ (Rom 6:11) (the second death) needs to occur to consummate the renewal in the spirit. Hence the purificatory function of the lake, heaven descends to earth, the need to wash robes (carnality) in Lamb's blood (life of Christ). It's all about destroying the flesh and transforming to spirit in Christ.

Ah yes, the usual piece of this verse, piece of that verse jam them together irrespective of context and none of this has anything to do with the scripture I posted.
If there is a second death it occurs after judgement in the lake of fire. I don't happen to believe there is actually a second death. Although the second death is mentioned 4 times in Rev. none of the verses say anyone or anything is thrown into the LoF then dies.
The death to self must occur before the judgement not in the LoF.
There is no mention in scripture of the LoF having any purification properties.

 

[Der Alte]

Thank God for Jesus, of whom Elisha was a type, turns up:
Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance [...] When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!" The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face. Jesus said to them, "Take off the grave clothes and let him go.
(John 11:38, 43)

Are you being deliberately obtuse or do you not understand my posts?
The five kings that David took out of the cave were not dead and did not go free.

 

[fwGod]

God is the Creator of all things. He loves everything He created, according to Genesis 1. But God hates Satan and demons and does not want anyone to live in the lake of fire that He created. I don't get it. My mom said a loving God would not create hell because He does not want people to suffer eternally, so she does not believe it exists. Why isn't this true?

A loving God is also a God of judgment who alone can deal righteously with wicked men who align themselves with the Devil, and therefore get his punishment.

Read the Bible again. Through the prophets of the old testament God talks about the wicked to go down to the pit of hell because of their evil deeds. Even as God at the end of the Tribulation, Jesus Second Coming.. also throws satan, the antichrist, and the false prophet into hell.

God, out of His love for us sent Jesus to the cross to die in our place, so that we who believe in Him shall not remain in our sins and be put in hell.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I agree, God is punishing people.

Kolazei never timoreizei. Correction not retribution. He repays good for evil, not evil for evil. The point is that God's fire is of/ from Him - it is love, for He is love.

The fire will not be quenched. It is eternal.

Agreed the fire is eternal, because it's God (or at least it lasts until the job is done). But folks aren't in it eternally. Does your bath evaporate when you get out of it?

SALT IS GOOD!

Also, yes he died for all who will except the sacrifice that he made

Arrant rubbish. Jesus died for all, he came to save the whole world. Sad that you doubt the power of God. This 'short-selling' is a form of unbelief that ironically might land a guy in the lake of fire for re-education!

Are you saying that Lucifer, the prince of demons will be saved.

Are you saying that God can't save any one of His creatures? Or is the devil just too tough a nut to crack?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

And I said there are two living beings who can be thrown some into the LoF and can die and their power to kill ended.

In Rev 20:9 death and hell are not capitalised, they are not proper names - for starters.

If there is a second death it occurs after judgement in the lake of fire. I don't happen to believe there is actually a second death.

Despite the scripture clearly stating the second death is the LOF. That would be the death of death. You see, Jesus lays the ax to the root. And death is the enemy, so it needs to die. How? By being overcome with grace, same pattern/ blueprint as Calvary.

It's all very consistent. As you can't see it, you might be suffering from the strong delusion, have you considered that?

Although the second death is mentioned 4 times in Rev. none of the verses say anyone or anything is thrown into the LoF then dies.

Correct, it's death itself that 'dies' ie unbelief etc. The fire fills the reprobates with the love of God. It's straight up baptism of the HS. So they can emerge repentant and come through the open gates to be healed and inherit alongside the bride.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Are you being deliberately obtuse or do you not understand my posts?
The five kings that David took out of the cave were not dead and did not go free.

I'm showing you what Jesus does with dead guys in caves. He restores them to life. You've seen the son, now see the father.

 

[Der Alte]

In Rev 20:9 death and hell are not capitalised, they are not proper names - for starters.

Neither Hebrew nor Greek had any capital letters. Any capitalization was done at the whim of the translators.

Despite the scripture clearly stating the second death is the LOF. That would be the death of death. You see, Jesus lays the ax to the root. And death is the enemy, so it needs to die. How? By being overcome with grace, same pattern/ blueprint as Calvary.

You are entitled to your opinion but is is only your opinion, not scripture.
Where does scripture say "no more death?" And even then 4 verses later scripture says that 8 groups of people will be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death.

It's all very consistent. As you can't see it, you might be suffering from the strong delusion, have you considered that?

Unlike you I follow this maxim "If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to seek any other sense." I don't invent figurative language just to make it support some assumptions/presuppositions. The better candidate for "strong delusion" is you adding to scripture

Correct, it's death itself that 'dies' ie unbelief etc. The fire fills the reprobates with the love of God. It's straight up baptism of the HS. So they can emerge repentant and come through the open gates to be healed and inherit alongside the bride.

Pipe dreams and fantasy not supported by scripture.

 

[Der Alte]

I'm showing you what Jesus does with dead guys in caves. He restores them to life. You've seen the son, now see the father.

Nonsense. Reading your biases into scripture. One incident in the Bible does not make a rule for all mankind as I have shown from Josh 10.

 

[Tyler52]

Kolazei never timoreizei. Correction not retribution. He repays good for evil, not evil for evil. The point is that God's fire is of/ from Him - it is love, for He is love.

That's not evil for evil, that's justice. You seem to believe that justice is evil, or at least the tradition view of God's justice which I'm certain is true. Besides, the unbelievers rejected God's love.

Agreed the fire is eternal, because it's God (or at least it lasts until the job is done). But folks aren't in it eternally. Does your bath evaporate when you get out of it?

No, God is not hell, God is good, Gahanna fire is not. Our saltiness is our righteousness (that Christ has given us), because of it we will be salted with fire(trials and tribulations). The salt that the unbeliever will recieve is Gahanna. Or are you saying that God will send us all to gahanna or at least the believers to purgatory.

SALT IS GOOD!

Based on your interpurtation of the text, why is being roasted alive good? We are the salt of the earth, we should show it.

Arrant rubbish. Jesus died for all, he came to save the whole world. Sad that you doubt the power of God.

I don't, I just believe that he won, that's not believing that he can't. I can throw stuff out the window, it doesn mean that I will, and if I don't, it doesn't mean that I can't.

This 'short-selling' is a form of unbelief that ironically might land a guy in the lake of fire for re-education!

God is not Joseph Stalin, he won't send real believers to Gahanna, no matter how much we deserve it. Also, Gahanna is not a re-education camp, it's a prison worse than we can imagine. Why do you think I will go there? Do my believes make me hate people? No, I want everyone to be saved so they don't have to go to Gahanna, but no one has ears to hear, and no one has eyes to see.

Are you saying that God can't save any one of His creatures? Or is the devil just too tough a nut to crack?

I believe that God will save who he chooses and satin is not one of the elect. There is no disbelief on my part here, from my point of view it seems like you can't cope with the fact that God will let people go.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Neither Hebrew nor Greek had any capital letters. Any capitalization was done at the whim of the translators.

Right, so what makes you think it's referring to those horsemen? Death isn't an object, but it's a 'thing', referred to as an enemy. Just sin is a 'thing,' albeit immaterial, that crouches at Cain's door waiting. And what about the other horsemen?

You need to prove your supposition, it's not for me to disprove it.

You are entitled to your opinion but is is only your opinion, not scripture.
Where does scripture say "no more death?" And even then 4 verses later scripture says that 8 groups of people will be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death.

Because the people emerge alive, and death is never again mentioned.

Unlike you I follow this maxim "If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to seek any other sense." I don't invent figurative language just to make it support some assumptions/presuppositions. The better candidate for "strong delusion" is you adding to scripture

Well, if you can't see that the Bible ends on the note 'and they all live happily everafter', there's something clouding your reading eyes.

Nonsense. Reading your biases into scripture. One incident in the Bible does not make a rule for all mankind as I have shown from Josh 10.

No, it's who Jesus is. His mission is to restore sight to the blind, free the captives, liberate the slaves, heal the sick, mend the broken hearts and so on.

Contrast this with burn the sinners, destroy the cowardly, smash the unbelieving...

You seem to be labouring in vain with a case of mistaken divine identity.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

That's not evil for evil, that's justice. You seem to believe that justice is evil, or at least the tradition view of God's justice which I'm certain is true. Besides, the unbelievers rejected God's love.

God's justice saves.

Where the punishment is manifestly excessive, you have injustice.

The Mosaic justice is 'an eye for an eye', no more 'cursed unto the 7th generation' stuff, each man is responsible for his own actions. Equal measure. Punishment fits crime. Condign justice. Agreed?

Jesus reveals the true underlying justice principle is 'as ye sow, so shall ye reap'. So for example, if you preach hellfire, it's hellfire you'll get. The sinner gets a taste of his own medicine. That's what the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is all about: surprise, the exclusivist holier-than-thou Pharisee ends up in the spot he'd reserved for the beggar.

That's the justice that brings us to repentance, because it produces reconciliation, understanding, compassion, empathy, loving they neighbour as thyself...it's not hard mate, which part do you not get?

You said: "Or are you saying that God will send us all to gahanna or at least the believers to purgatory."

Look at the list of those who go to the lake. Everyone could be on that list. I cry out to God 'Help my unbelief! Help me out of my sinful ways!' So He gives us help, those whom He loves much He chastises much. (kolazei).

↑
You said "Based on your interpurtation of the text, why is being roasted alive good? We are the salt of the earth, we should show it."

That's why it's not about being roasted alive, but it can be an extremely unpleasant experience, letting go and turning around. Jesus warns that it's much better to do it now, than wait for God to fix it in Gahunna.

↑
You said "God is not Joseph Stalin, he won't send real believers to Gahanna, no matter how much we deserve it. Also, Gahanna is not a re-education camp, it's a prison worse than we can imagine. Why do you think I will go there? Do my believes make me hate people? No, I want everyone to be saved so they don't have to go to Gahanna, but no one has ears to hear, and no one has eyes to see."

No, we're all guilty of unbelief. Which of us has loved God with all his heart and soul all the time? This is a general prayer and apology made in traditional churches. Forgive us our sins Lord, we fall short in so many ways.

↑
You said "I believe that God will save who he chooses and satin is not one of the elect. There is no disbelief on my part here, from my point of view it seems like you can't cope with the fact that God will let people go."

How do you know satan is not earmarked for salvation? You see, the smoke of his torment has gone up forever, meaning it is finished. His torment/ testing is over. He has been overcome (in the Eschaton that is).

Can you imagine the devil's worst nightmare? It's not having his toes singed, it's repentance, where he falls to his knees and begs for forgiveness in all sincerity, the ultimate prodigal son. And is that not the victory of Christ?

 

[Original Happy Camper]

God is the Creator of all things. He loves everything He created, according to Genesis 1. But God hates Satan and demons and does not want anyone to live in the lake of fire that He created. I don't get it. My mom said a loving God would not create hell because He does not want people to suffer eternally, so she does not believe it exists. Why isn't this true?

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

The lake of fire was not intended for humans however many choose in their time on earth to jump in with the devil and his angles

 

[Der Alte]

Right, so what makes you think it's referring to those horsemen? Death isn't an object, but it's a 'thing', referred to as an enemy. Just sin is a 'thing,' albeit immaterial, that crouches at Cain's door waiting. And what about the other horsemen?

I have already explained that more than once. Have you been reading my posts?
"death" i.e. the point in time end of life cannot be thrown anywhere. Since death and hell are not alive they cannot die. The horseman on the pale horse whose name is death can be thrown and can die. The "being" which follows the pale horse whose name is "hell" can be thrown and can die.

You need to prove your supposition, it's not for me to disprove it.

Which of my statements do you thing is a false supposition? Prove it.

Because the people emerge alive, and death is never again mentioned.

This is just your false assumption.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:8
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

Please show me scripture which states these people emerge alive?

Well, if you can't see that the Bible ends on the note 'and they all live happily everafter', there's something clouding your reading eyes.

If you can't show me where the Bible says they all live happily ever after something is clouding your reading eyes.
Will those who have been thrown into the LoF be filled with warm fuzzies and love for God/Jesus after spending some time in the Lof?
Criminals who are punished in this life don't have love for the people who put them in prisons, how/why will they change after the LoF? They hate God/Jesus in this life how/why will they change after the LoF?

No, it's who Jesus is. His mission is to restore sight to the blind, free the captives, liberate the slaves, heal the sick, mend the broken hearts and so on.

John 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Matthew 7:22-23
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Why didn't Jesus restore sight of these blind, free these captives, liberate these slaves, heal these sick, mend these broken hearts and so on?

Contrast this with burn the sinners, destroy the cowardly, smash the unbelieving...

I just did? Read my previous comments.

You seem to be labouring in vain with a case of mistaken divine identity.

I quote scripture you just give me your unsupported opinion.

 

[Tyler52]

God's justice saves.

Where the punishment is manifestly excessive, you have injustice.

The Mosaic justice is 'an eye for an eye', no more 'cursed unto the 7th generation' stuff, each man is responsible for his own actions. Equal measure. Punishment fits crime. Condign justice. Agreed?

Agreed, they forsook God, so he will forsake them.

Jesus reveals the true underlying justice principle is 'as ye sow, so shall ye reap'. So for example, if you preach hellfire, it's hellfire you'll get. The sinner gets a taste of his own medicine. That's what the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is all about: surprise, the exclusivist holier-than-thou Pharisee ends up in the spot he'd reserved for the beggar.

Since you're saying that we are going to hell for our traditional beliefs doesn't that mean that you'll join us for telling us that we are going to hell?

That's the justice that brings us to repentance, because it produces reconciliation, understanding, compassion, empathy, loving they neighbour as thyself...it's not hard mate, which part do you not get?

That wouldn't produce "reconciliation, understanding, compassion, empathy, loving they neighbour as thyself" that produces fear, anxiety, hatred, and the feeling as if you are a slave/being oprressed.

You said: "Or are you saying that God will send us all to gahanna or at least the believers to purgatory."

Look at the list of those who go to the lake. Everyone could be on that list. I cry out to God 'Help my unbelief! Help me out of my sinful ways!' So He gives us help, those whom He loves much He chastises much. (kolazei).

In life not death! Those who believe in Christ shall not be harmed by the second death.
↑

You said "Based on your interpurtation of the text, why is being roasted alive good? We are the salt of the earth, we should show it."

That's why it's not about being roasted alive, but it can be an extremely unpleasant experience, letting go and turning around. Jesus warns that it's much better to do it now, than wait for God to fix it in Gahunna.

Yes, Jesus says it's better to enter life as a cripple than go to Gahanna, he however says nothing about fixing it there. Entering life also implies that the others are dead.
Matthew 18:8-9 NASB
"If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. [9] If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.

↑

You said "God is not Joseph Stalin, he won't send real believers to Gahanna, no matter how much we deserve it. Also, Gahanna is not a re-education camp, it's a prison worse than we can imagine. Why do you think I will go there? Do my believes make me hate people? No, I want everyone to be saved so they don't have to go to Gahanna, but no one has ears to hear, and no one has eyes to see."

No, we're all guilty of unbelief. Which of us has loved God with all his heart and soul all the time? This is a general prayer and apology made in traditional churches. Forgive us our sins Lord, we fall short in so many ways.

Yes we are, but the blood of Jesus has covered our sins, he was punished for us.
↑

You said "I believe that God will save who he chooses and satin is not one of the elect. There is no disbelief on my part here, from my point of view it seems like you can't cope with the fact that God will let people go."

How do you know satan is not earmarked for salvation? You see, the smoke of his torment has gone up forever, meaning it is finished. His torment/ testing is over. He has been overcome (in the Eschaton that is).

No, it means that his torment never ends, there is no smoke where fire has long left

Can you imagine the devil's worst nightmare? It's not having his toes singed,

That's not what Gahanna is, it's much worse than "

it's repentance, where he falls to his knees and begs for forgiveness in all sincerity, the ultimate prodigal son. And is that not the victory of Christ?

The scriptures do not say Satan surrendered to Christ, it says the Christ defeated satan. Also how do you know what his worst fear is? Also the fire doesn't go out, it's eternal:
Matthew 18:8 NASB
"If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Agreed, they forsook God, so he will forsake them.

if we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself. (2 Tim 2:13)

Since you're saying that we are going to hell for our traditional beliefs doesn't that mean that you'll join us for telling us that we are going to hell?

Are you sure you're old enough for this argument?

That wouldn't produce "reconciliation, understanding, compassion, empathy, loving they neighbour as thyself" that produces fear, anxiety, hatred, and the feeling as if you are a slave/being oprressed.

Curious lad. You seem to think the threat of infinitely excessive punishment is liberating, but condign and corrective punishment is oppressive.

Yes, Jesus says it's better to enter life as a cripple than go to Gahanna, he however says nothing about fixing it there. Entering life also implies that the others are dead.

Entering life, cripple etc. Jesus is speaking in the spirit. You make a good disciple, no clue what he's saying.

Yes we are, but the blood of Jesus has covered our sins, he was punished for us.

So you believe God tortured and killed His own son so He could forgive mankind? Sorry, wrong deity. That would be an evil psycho god, say like satan. Tell me, if I kill your mum, and my friend does the time for it, would you feel justice was served?

The scriptures do not say Satan surrendered to Christ, it says the Christ defeated satan.

That's how Christ defeats his enemies. The passion!

No, it means that his torment never ends, there is no smoke where fire has long left

That's right, the smoke goes up forever, goodbye smoke goodbye torment, goodbye sin.

Also how do you know what his worst fear is?

Because we know his main sins are pride and envy.

Also the fire doesn't go out, it's eternal:

True. It's God's holy fire.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

"death" i.e. the point in time end of life cannot be thrown anywhere. Since death and hell are not alive they cannot die.

Yes, it's called metaphor, that's what we're told at the very top: 'He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John' (Rev1:1).

I suggest you're going the wrong way, trying to literalise and carnalise these scriptures. This is spiritual significance. Do you also think Jesus spits swords at people?

Which of my statements do you thing is a false supposition? Prove it.

Well, Barry Death and Harry Hell do not ride horses, for starters. (They prefer limousines.)

The mind boggles.

They hate God/Jesus in this life how/why will they change after the LoF?

Because they'll get the true gospel, not the 'buy our boss's fire insurance policy or he'll fry you' version. God's name's written on every heart. He is in effect bound to issue a total recall of defective product for warranty repairs (He has given His Word on this in numerous times and sealed the promise at Calvary).

What do you think Revelation is about? It's the ultimate war for men's hearts and minds, hence the removal of the obstacles (Babylon, the counterfeit trinity), the strikes/ plagues, trumpets and the thousands coming across. you have to read the narrative to understand the symbology.

Please show me scripture which states these people emerge alive?

Rev 21:24-26. Nations (that means everybody as per Rev 20:7 gathered from 4 corners of earth, and anyone else who couldn't be bothered) get devoured by fire Rev 20:9. Who's left apart from the nations and the bride? Nobody - the reprobates who are thrown in the LOF can only be a subset of the nations - who else?

You seem to expect a Revelation to be written like a statutory instrument. Its not that genre. And it's about the spirit giving life.

So the nations return to walk by the City lights and bring their honour and glory.

And again, Rev 22:14 and 15. That's 'uh the deal', you either stay outside wallowing in own crapulence, or you wash up and come in get the good stuff. It's not rocket surgery.

Why didn't Jesus restore sight of these blind, free these captives, liberate these slaves, heal these sick, mend these broken hearts and so on?

"Come" said the Spirit and the Bride. The best wine comes later.