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Featured Why does God want me to lie to Him?

Discussion in 'Requests for Christian Advice' started by Questioning Brother, Oct 4, 2020.

  1. Aussie Pete

    Aussie Pete Well-Known Member Supporter

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    God does not want lying prayers - read the parable of the sower. You obviously do not know God. He is nothing like the picture that you paint.
     
  2. Questioning Brother

    Questioning Brother Member

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    He is entirely like I describe. The Bible repeatedly tells us that He is using the suffering, expects us to go through it, expects us to count it for joy, or chastens us with it. All of that require it to be HIS PLAN. He is either planning on it happening, or with the last one causing it. Again, if He didn’t have it as part of His plan, it would not happen, because it wouldn’t work towards the good He describes.
     
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  3. DiscipleHeLovesToo

    DiscipleHeLovesToo Regular Member Supporter

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    let's start with the most obvious example from the Bible that tells us He is using the suffering - can you tell me what scripture that is? it doesn't have to be the specific book, chapter, and verse; just what it says as best as you can remember
     
  4. DiscipleHeLovesToo

    DiscipleHeLovesToo Regular Member Supporter

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    is this one of them?

    (Rom 8:28) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
     
  5. Questioning Brother

    Questioning Brother Member

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    Yes that is one. The exact book escapes me but he also talks about refining like gold through the fires of affliction, and others of that nature.
     
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  6. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    There is a big difference between suffering because you are defending the Gospel, speaking for Jesus and doing what is right, and suffering because you are ill/unemployed/bereaved or dealing with the sins and dis ease of a fallen world.

    Jesus said that his followers would be persecuted; he said we were blessed if we suffered insults and rejection because we belonged to him. The early church counted it an honour to suffer because of Jesus, and they did not let the threat of suffering deter them from preaching the Gospel; if people opposed them it was because they were teaching the truth and others were being convicted or felt uncomfortable.
    It was James who said "Count it all joy" - Jesus said if people hated him they would hate his followers, and that was what was happening. They were being persecuted for belong to, and following, Jesus.

    That is not the same as saying "rejoice when you are physically ill/in pain/suffering because of the sins of others. God sent you that illness to teach you something."
    We are not punished for our sins through illness. There is one punishment for sin - spiritual death, separation from God - and Jesus took that punishment so that we wouldn't have to.
    God can work for good IN all things - I learned and discovered a number of things when I had M.E; that doesn't mean he deliberately sent that illness because I wasn't good enough, or needed to learn them.
     
  7. Aussie Pete

    Aussie Pete Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Sure. But you rebel against God's ways. If you knew God, you would know to run to God in times of trouble, not turn away. God rarely intervenes to bring suffering. We are more than able to cause ourselves untold grief. He sure was there for me while I was in hospital not long ago. It was a terrible time in one way yet I also had the comfort of His presence continually. One of the doctors had to remind me that I was seriously ill. My friends prayed that I would not need the proposed operation and sure enough, my internals gradually went back to normal. The Gastroenterologist was impressed because she knew (I don't know how) that I was being prayed for. I met many Christian nurses and that was a joy also. Sure, I would skip the experience if I had the choice. I did not. But God brought good out of it. Hey, I lost 5kg. Not the recommended way, but it works.
     
  8. DiscipleHeLovesToo

    DiscipleHeLovesToo Regular Member Supporter

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    no problem - it's in the book of Romans; Romans is a letter written by Paul to the Christians in Rome sometime after Jesus was crucified and resurrected - Paul lived in the same time as Jesus. Romans is like a mini-Bible; chapters 1-7 can be said to interpret the Old Testament (like a last will and testament - a testament of God's will for us); chapters 8-16 can be said to interpret the New Testament.

    let's look at this verse carefully:

    (Rom 8:28) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
    (emphasis added by me)

    this isn't saying that all things work for the good of everyone, but 'to them' - this applies to a specific group of people only, a group of people 'that love God' AND are 'who are the called according to his purpose'.

    so what does it mean to 'love God'? love means different things to different people - if you've ever watched any tv shows, you've no doubt heard an actor or actress say 'i love you and i need you; i can't live without you' or something similar - this is love as the world knows love; it's basically the same as saying 'i love what you do for me, and i need you to keep doing it - if you stop, i'll stop loving you' - in other words, for most people, love is actually a transaction - give me what i want and i'll love you for it - the focus is on one's self, not the one 'loved'. but this is not how God defines love in the Bible:

    (Rom 5:6) For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
    (Rom 5:7) For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
    (Rom 5:8) But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

    God's Love is selfless, it's not based on what we can do for Him; He knew before He created light that we would all turn away from Him in selfish pride; esteeming our own intellect and understanding above His - and He made a plan to save us - He sent His sinless Son pay the price for our sins, take our punishment, AND bear our sicknesses:

    (Isaiah 53:4) Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
    (Isaiah 53:5) But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

    (Mat 8:16) When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:
    (Mat 8:17) That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.
    ("Esaias" here is the Greek version of the Hebrew name "Isaiah")
    (emphasis added by me)

    this is the kind of Love that Romans 8:28 is referring to - a selfless Love; in order to love God this way, you must first receive His selfless Love as a free gift - if you try to earn it, you won't be able to receive it - because then it would be payment for your performance instead of selfless Love.

    and what about that second requirement in Romans 8:28?

    those "who are the called according to his purpose"

    you can get an idea of what this means from the great provision scripture we looked at earlier:

    (2Pe 1:1) Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
    (2Pe 1:2) Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
    (2Pe 1:3) According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
    (2Pe 1:4) Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
    (emphasis added by me)

    how do we receive 'all things that pertain to life and godliness' that 'He has given us through His divine power'?

    through the knowledge of Him - this doesn't refer to knowledge that you might have about a world ruler that you've never met such as the President of the United States - it means an intimate knowledge that only comes through fellowship with someone like a spouse - this is what God wants - He wants us to KNOW Him

    and what this purpose that he has called us to? - so that we can receive glory and virtue; glory here means goodness; virtue means spiritual completion, and includes forgiveness of sins.

    (Rom 8:28) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
    (emphasis added by me)

    you could look at Romans 8:28 this way: all things work for good for them that have received God's selfless Love and therefore now love Him selflessly, and who receive goodness and virtue through faith in Jesus' payment for their sins as their substitute

    the bad things that happen to people aren't from God; He wants only Good for us

    does this make sense so far?
     
  9. Questioning Brother

    Questioning Brother Member

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    I knew that verse was in Romans. It was the refining one that I couldn’t recall where it was. As for him not causing the problems, the OT has numerous verses referring to him doing that for various reasons. A large example would be The Exodus with Egypt.
     
  10. DiscipleHeLovesToo

    DiscipleHeLovesToo Regular Member Supporter

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    in my understanding, God has offered man 2 covenants: one based on our performance to His Laws, and one based on our faith in His grace (unmerited favor) toward us. He sees the heart of every person, and knows who will receive His Goodness through faith in His grace, who will try to earn His goodness through performance to laws, and who will completely reject Him. God is absolutely fair - if you choose to completely reject Him, He will honor your choice by sending you to the only place where He withholds His fellowship to honor the choice of those who got there - we call this place hell. God is also absolutely just - if you've decided to reject Him then you've chosen to serve the devil (His once chief angel that rebelled against Him; hell was actually prepared for the devil and his crew); and those whom God slew in the OT were in this group - they were like a cancer to those who would enter into covenant with Him, and when Israel failed to slay the inhabitants of the promised land, those who they didn't kill corrupted them to worship dead idols instead of God, cutting themselves off from His Goodness. Israel wanted to earn God's goodness, so He gave them His laws - a standard so strict that no one can meet it (except Jesus of course), His intent was to drive them to ask for mercy so that they could receive His goodness by faith in His grace.

    i can provide scripture to back this up, but first tell me this - do you accept the Bible as being the written representation of the Word of God?
     
  11. Questioning Brother

    Questioning Brother Member

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    I stipulate to belief in all the basics of Christianity as defined by Protestantism. Trinity, Bible is the word of God, Christ is only way, etc. so skip the basic discussion and move up to the discussion at hand.
     
  12. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    A number of translations have for that verse "in all things God works for the good of those who love him", Romans 8:28. (I'm not being critical and I don't want to get into a debate about accuracy, I'm just saying.)
    IN all things. It's not the things that somehow, and mysteriously, come together to make something good; IN all things, God works.
    A few verses later Paul asks "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or the sword?, Romans 8:35. Then he concludes "no, IN all these things we are more than conquerors", Romans 8:37.

    Things happen in life.
    Paul told the Philippians that one of his fellow workers, Epaphroditus, was once very ill and nearly died, Philippians 2:27. In 2 Timothy 4:20 Paul reports that he left another co worker behind because he was too ill to continue with their mission. Paul himself only preached to the church at Galatia because he was ill - no doubt his original plans had to be abandoned and he stopped off there. And he later spoke of a thorn in the flesh which he asked God to take away, but God didn't.
    Sometimes stuff happened in the early church which resulted in frustration, delays or maybe a change of plan - and this was on top of all their persecutions. Yet in all of this, Paul still taught that God was with them, could work for good in their situations and that the bad stuff could never separate them from God's love.
     
  13. Questioning Brother

    Questioning Brother Member

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    I am not completely rejecting Him, but His blessings that aren’t actually helping are driving me from Him. It does not matter to me how much or how many times he says He loves me, He wants my good, or all the other spiritual words that are about making me feel better about the situation. It isn’t doing anything to help. His acting to actually change things would mean an infinite amount more to me than any of the spiritual/relationship/feelings words He could use.
    If he fixes the problem, I don’t need them. If doesn't fix the problem they are meaningless to me.
     
  14. DiscipleHeLovesToo

    DiscipleHeLovesToo Regular Member Supporter

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    your opportunity to see change for the better is slipping away - you aren't going to live in this world forever.

    has anything changed for the better since you opened this thread?

    do you think you're going to force God to change to suit your thinking?
     
  15. Questioning Brother

    Questioning Brother Member

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    Most of this is probably trying to figure out how to get the only thing he could give me that matters to me, while the rest is venting to some degree. There is one singular source for the healing of my 51 year old wife of the multiple strokes she has had. All other blessings he could possibly give (with the far second place blessings of enough material blessings so that she could at least be at home) mean next to nothing to me. There is no comfort, no joy until that is fulfilled. I also DO NOT mean healed in heaven. Again, if he heals her, I don’t need the comforting, I will have it already. If he doesn’t, then his comforting means nothing.
     
  16. DiscipleHeLovesToo

    DiscipleHeLovesToo Regular Member Supporter

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    thank you for sharing that Brother; it helps me to understand your posts.

    i think you know that God didn't cause this; He created the world without sickness and infirmities - give Him the benefit of the doubt for now, and let Him strengthen you

    (Psa 27:13) I had fainted, unless I had believed to see the goodness of the LORD in the land of the living.
     
  17. Questioning Brother

    Questioning Brother Member

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    This is one thing that I have noticed. Many get hung up on why or who is causing the problem. It doesn’t make a difference, the effect is the same.

    I don’t want Him to strengthen me. I want him to fix the issue. Stronger and no change=no change.
     
  18. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    The problem is though that none of us can make God give us anything.
    In the 6 pages of replies that you've had to your question - and I don't think this is the first time you've asked it - how many people have said "well the way to get God to respond to you and give you what you want is ............?"
     
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  19. DiscipleHeLovesToo

    DiscipleHeLovesToo Regular Member Supporter

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    i know you're going through what seems like hell right now, but your approach is hurting you. there's an entire book of the Bible devoted to someone who went through an experience similar to but far worse than what you're facing - Job:

    (Job 1:1) A man named Job lived in Uz. He was a man of integrity: He was decent, he feared God, and he stayed away from evil.
    (Job 1:2) He had seven sons and three daughters.
    (Job 1:3) He owned 7,000 sheep and goats, 3,000 camels, 1,000 oxen, 500 donkeys, and a large number of servants. He was the most influential person in the Middle East.
    (Job 1:4) His sons used to go to each other's homes, where they would have parties. (Each brother took his turn having a party.) They would send someone to invite their three sisters to eat and drink with them.
    (Job 1:5) When they finished having their parties, Job would send for them in order to cleanse them from sin. He would get up early in the morning and sacrifice burnt offerings for each of them. Job thought, "My children may have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." Job offered sacrifices for them all the time.
    (emphasis added by me)

    even though God had blessed Job above all his neighbors, Job wouldn't bring himself to trust God to keep his grown children safe, so he continually pleaded with God to protect them through his daily sacrifices - in other words, he was not in faith about his children. fear is much like faith in that it is confidence in the devil's ability to steal, kill, and destroy rather than in God's ability to restore, quicken, and (re)create.

    satan recognized this - he's constantly looking for people in fear (i.e., people not in faith) to accuse before God - and satan came before God to accuse Job:

    (Job 1:6) One day when the sons of God came to stand in front of the LORD, Satan the Accuser came along with them.
    (Job 1:7) The LORD asked Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the LORD, "From wandering all over the earth."
    (Job 1:8) The LORD asked Satan, "Have you thought about my servant Job? No one in the world is like him! He is a man of integrity: He is decent, he fears God, and he stays away from evil."
    (Job 1:9) Satan answered the LORD, "Haven't you given Job a reason to fear God?
    (Job 1:10) Haven't you put a protective fence around him, his home, and everything he has? You have blessed everything he does. His cattle have spread out over the land.
    (Job 1:11) But now stretch out your hand, and strike everything he has. I bet he'll curse you to your face."
    (Job 1:12) The LORD told Satan, "Everything he has is in your power, but you must not lay a hand on him!" Then Satan left the LORD'S presence.

    this is an example of how bad things happen to good people - because Job had put his faith in satan when he yielded to fear regarding his children, God had to respect his choice and confirm to satan that Job had stepped out of God's protection - and satan wasted no time acting on Job's fear (notice how God spoke up for Job in verse 8, before the devil made his accusation against Job; then even after God had to confirm Job's choice to yield to satan, God mercifully put a limit on what satan could do to him):

    (Job 1:13) One day when Job's sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother's home,
    (Job 1:14) a messenger came to Job. He said, "While the oxen were plowing and the donkeys were grazing nearby,
    (Job 1:15) men from Sheba attacked. They took the livestock and massacred the servants. I'm the only one who has escaped to tell you."
    (Job 1:16) While he was still speaking, another messenger came and said, "A fire from God fell from heaven and completely burned your flocks and servants. I'm the only one who has escaped to tell you."
    (Job 1:17) While he was still speaking, another messenger came and said, "The Chaldeans formed three companies and made a raid on the camels. They took the camels and massacred the servants. I'm the only one who has escaped to tell you."
    (Job 1:18) While he was still speaking, another messenger came and said, "Your sons and your daughters were eating and drinking wine at their oldest brother's home
    (Job 1:19) when suddenly a great storm swept across the desert and struck the four corners of the house. It fell on the young people, and they died. I'm the only one who has escaped to tell you."
    (Job 1:20) Job stood up, tore his robe in grief, and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground and worshiped.
    (Job 1:21) He said, "Naked I came from my mother, and naked I will return. The LORD has given, and the LORD has taken away! May the name of the LORD be praised."
    (Job 1:22) Through all this Job did not sin or blame God for doing anything wrong.
    (emphasis added by me)

    Job didn't curse God as satan had predicted, but he also didn't admit his fault (at this point anyway) that had allowed satan access to his life to begin with through fear, so satan went before God to accuse Job a second time:

    (Job 2:1) One day when the sons of God came to stand in front of the LORD, Satan the Accuser came along with them.
    (Job 2:2) The LORD asked Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the LORD, "From wandering all over the earth."
    (Job 2:3) The LORD asked Satan, "Have you thought about my servant Job? No one in the world is like him! He is a man of integrity: He is decent, he fears God, and he stays away from evil. And he still holds on to his principles. You're trying to provoke me into ruining him for no reason."
    (Job 2:4) Satan answered the LORD, "Skin for skin! Certainly, a man will give everything he has for his life.
    (Job 2:5) But stretch out your hand, and strike his flesh and bones. I bet he'll curse you to your face."
    (Job 2:6) The LORD told Satan, "He is in your power, but you must spare his life!"
    (Job 2:7) Satan left the LORD'S presence and struck Job with painful boils from the soles of his feet to the top of his head.
    (Job 2:8) Job took a piece of broken pottery to scratch himself as he sat in the ashes.
    (Job 2:9) His wife asked him, "Are you still holding on to your principles? Curse God and die!"
    (Job 2:10) He said to her, "You're talking like a godless fool. We accept the good that God gives us. Shouldn't we also accept the bad?" Through all this Job's lips did not utter one sinful word.
    (emphasis added by me)

    now Job reveals how he allowed satan access to him:

    (Job 3:25) What I fear most overtakes me. What I dread happens to me.
    (Job 3:26) I have no peace! I have no quiet! I have no rest! And trouble keeps coming!"

    this might be more clear in the KJV:

    (Job 3:25) For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.
    (emphasis added by me)

    Job began to lament that there was no one to appeal to over what God had allowed satan to do to him - even though it was Job's fear that opened him up to the devil, not God. his friends couldn't help him any more than we've helped you; God finally appears to Job and resets Job's perspective:

    (Job 38:1) Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
    (Job 38:2) Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
    (Job 38:3) Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
    (Job 38:4) Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
    (Job 38:5) Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
    ...
    (Job 40:1) Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said,
    (Job 40:2) Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.
    (Job 40:3) Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
    (Job 40:4) Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.
    (Job 40:5) Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.

    (emphasis added by me)

    Job has come to his senses

    (Job 40:6) Then answered the LORD unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
    (Job 40:7) Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
    (Job 40:8) Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
    (Job 40:9) Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?
    ...
    (Job 42:1) Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
    (Job 42:2) I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
    (Job 42:3) Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
    (Job 42:4) Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
    (Job 42:5) I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
    (Job 42:6) Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

    ...
    (Job 42:10) And the LORD turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.
    (Job 42:11) Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.
    (Job 42:12) So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses.
    (Job 42:13) He had also seven sons and three daughters.
    (emphasis added by me)

    if a man was starving, and got caught stealing food, he'd likely get mercy from the judge along with correction for the first offense. but if he kept on stealing food and getting caught, eventually the judge will have to pass judgement on him, no matter how much it grieved the judge.

    be smart and learn from Job - stop disrespecting the only One that you know can help you (you wouldn't act this way before a human judge would you?) - rail against the devil all you want, he's the one that is accusing you (and if you will submit yourself to God and resist the devil, he'll flee from YOU - James 4:7); Jesus is trying to defend you against satan's accurate accusations but you aren't giving Him anything to defend you with; instead you're giving satan more evidence to accuse you with - and as much as God loves you and wants to help you, He will not pervert judgement
     
  20. Questioning Brother

    Questioning Brother Member

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    A few problems with Job. I never have any comfort from reading/hearing about the misfortune of others. To me Job is the ultimate book of making the situation worse. The whole bet with Satan part makes it very much worse. I also don’t believe Job would have maintained His faith if he had known that his suffering was because God made a bet.
    Also, if it isn’t apparent, I don’t have the faith of Job. I have faith more like Job’s wife. I would never have let the first batch of kids go. If I was Job, my wife wouldn’t have had to tell me to curse God. That would have been the end of it.
     
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