Why does God Permit Satan to exist?

[keith99]

That is the question a young adult friend who has had her account here deactivated would like answered. I think it does make a difference who is asking a question so be aware she is Lutheran.

You may wonder why I ask here. Frankly it is because many other more trafficked areas that would seem more appropriate considering my faith icon are nasty enough that I would have little hope of any reasonable discourse. Other more liberal areas are apt to only yield comments that Satan is not a literal being. I'm hoping that here might yield more, even if only a bit more fleshing out if one holds that Satan is not a literal being.

We both thank you in advance.

Keith

 

[paul1149]

I'm not RC so I hope it's ok to answer here. If not tell me.

God could have wiped Adam and Eve away immediately and started afresh. Or He could have zapped satan before he got to Adam and Eve, and save everyone a lot of trouble.

But nothing would have been accomplished. An issue was raised in the Garden - namely, satan's accusation that God rules over us for His own aggrandizement. That issue had to be settled, or the rebellion eventually would have happened again and again, no matter how many times Creation was rebooted.

God doesn't apply band aids to cancer. He goes for the root. As Jefferson said, Jesus Christ purifies the waters at the fountainhead. The only way to resolve the issue was to prove once, for all time, that God is love, and deals with us for our own benefit. And the only way to do that was for Him to do the unthinkable. He came to earth as a man and gave His life as a ransom for us, who were captive to sin and death.

In doing this, He completely outstrategized satan, who was so full of himself he never thought God would do such a thing. He earned the legal right to set us free from satan's bonds and for us to become the sons of God.

Henceforth, it will never be feasible for any such accusation as was made in the Garden to be made against God again. The matter is settled. Those who trust in Him now will inherit eternal life, free of the whisperings of the accuser.

 

[rockytopva]

If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that...

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2)

And there are three varieties...

Natural E/c2 - All mass is basically cooled plasma
Mental E/c2 - Mentally, A mathematical formula, but this has chemical and spiritual properties as well.
Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)


1. Eternity - First we have eternity... Which we humans cannot understand.
2. Three groups of Angels led by three arch angels
--- Michael - Strong Angels
--- Gabriel - Wise Angels
--- Lucifer - Worshiping Angels
3. A rebellion in which Lucifer takes a third of the angels with him. - Revelation 12:3-4
4. A universe is created...
---The big bang - Gen 1:3
---The universe scatters - Gen 1:4
---I believe that billions of years passed until God called the light day and the darkness light.
---Five additional days of creation - In which we now have Adam.

It is of my beliefs that this universe was created in response to the fall of Lucifer. I believe that Lucifer and his angels grew accustomed to the Fathers light and energies and then began to hate it. When they fell I believe that they were stripped of their remaining light and energy in which they have substituted the true light and energy for the light called ego and arrogance. I have heard of a Catholic priest exorcising a demon in which he asked, "Why did you rebel?" In which, the demons answer was, "Because we were tired of serving!"

I hate with all my heart that we are down here with the fallen third of the angels. I think it is unfair that we will be held accountable for actions instigated by the fallen angels. I can only hope and pray to God that he holds them more accountable for the evil done on earth than he does man. 80 years on earth is not enough, in my opinion, to gain the understanding to understand these eternal things.

 

[Davidnic]

There are a few theological possibilities. One that many see as reasonable is it ties into free will. For the choice to love and serve God to be truly free...God allows Satan to test, tempt and attack. God knows that He gives us sufficient Grace to make the right choices but we can always choose self over Him.

So the Devil is allowed to do as he wills to temp the will of people from God. It ties into things like what C.S. Lewis wrote in the problem of pain...a paraphrase is that one person might choose to hit another with a bat. God could make them not choose it. He could make the bat soft and there be on consequence to the hit. But neither of those allows free will to exist in its fullness. That ties into the devil who works on the worst impulses of humanity and seeks to subvert choices from God and toward the selfish.

So it ties into free will and consequences. And it is balanced by the fact that God gives us the grace to do what is right and angels to help us. We have all we need to make the right choices, and there is also the mercy of God. But there must be another option. Although that option exists with or without Satan because we can always choose self over God...Satan adds and active element so (it is believed) God allows him to continue in his efforts. And God turns all to His plan.

 

[Saucy]

Why does God permit you to exist?

 

[Haipule]

I'm not RC so I hope it's ok to answer here. If not tell me.

God could have wiped Adam and Eve away immediately and started afresh. Or He could have zapped satan before he got to Adam and Eve, and save everyone a lot of trouble.

But nothing would have been accomplished. An issue was raised in the Garden - namely, satan's accusation that God rules over us for His own aggrandizement. That issue had to be settled, or the rebellion eventually would have happened again and again, no matter how many times Creation was rebooted.

God doesn't apply band aids to cancer. He goes for the root. As Jefferson said, Jesus Christ purifies the waters at the fountainhead. The only way to resolve the issue was to prove once, for all time, that God is love, and deals with us for our own benefit. And the only way to do that was for Him to do the unthinkable. He came to earth as a man and gave His life as a ransom for us, who were captive to sin and death.

In doing this, He completely outstrategized satan, who was so full of himself he never thought God would do such a thing. He earned the legal right to set us free from satan's bonds and for us to become the sons of God.

Henceforth, it will never be feasible for any such accusation as was made in the Garden to be made against God again. The matter is settled. Those who trust in Him now will inherit eternal life, free of the whisperings of the accuser.

Dude! What planet do you come from? And please take me to your leader! That was awesome!

 

[~Anastasia~]

You would be welcome to come and ask in The Ancient Way if you like, as well. The Ancient Way - Eastern Orthodox

They might offer some nuances to Davidnic's reply, but it would probably be along the same lines. I myself can't think of anything substantial to add to it, but I can assure you that even though it might be hard to imagine and understand, Satan ultimately serves God's purpose. I do NOT say that God wills evil to happen, but rather that God will redeem whatever evil does happen. And that Satan cannot act without the permission of God.

 

[paul1149]

And please take me to your leader

Thanks. I think you already know my Leader.

 

[Michie]

I found this article written by Father Saunders very helpful. It is not too long and worth the read.

Father William P. Saunders

"God created the devil as good, God punished him for his sin and God allows his present activity. The Catechism admits, "It is a great mystery that providence should permit diobolical activity, but we know that in everything God works for the good for those who love Him."

"We take the presence and power of Satan seriously. We continue to ask our candidates in the baptismal liturgy, "Do you reject Satan? And all his works? And all his empty promises?...."

 

[Meowzltov]

Satan's primary "job" is to act as, well, a "devil's adocate." In order for free will to exist, we have to have more than one choice. It's not like we don't have enough sin in our hearts to screw things up royally on our own -- even if there were no Satan, we would have fallen from grace and needed a Savior. But Satan provides the "rationale" for our sins (see Genesis 2-3). Furthermore, before God, he is the "prosecuting attorney" who condemns us, speaking for "eye for an eye" justice (see the book of Job). Fallen or not, he does God's ultimate will, despite his free will rebellion against God.

 

[A_Thinker]

That is the question a young adult friend who has had her account here deactivated would like answered. I think it does make a difference who is asking a question so be aware she is Lutheran.

You may wonder why I ask here. Frankly it is because many other more trafficked areas that would seem more appropriate considering my faith icon are nasty enough that I would have little hope of any reasonable discourse. Other more liberal areas are apt to only yield comments that Satan is not a literal being. I'm hoping that here might yield more, even if only a bit more fleshing out if one holds that Satan is not a literal being.

We both thank you in advance.

Keith

Satan represents that element of God's creation which lives in opposition to the plan/scheme of God for His creation.

God created a universe epitomized by service.

Everything/Everyone serves ... Everything/Everyone is served.

God serves man, and His creation ... and God's creation is expected to, reciprocally, serve God ... and ts fellows in creation.

This corresponds to the (2) great commandments for humankind ...

"You shall love/serve the Lord God with all of your heart, mind, strength, and being."

"You shall love/serve your neighbor as you love/serve yourself."

As has been mentioned previously, Satan, at some point, determined that he desired to serve noone but himself, ... and he convinced a third of the heavenly beings to rebel against God with him.

As one considers Satan, one sees, at least, a couple points ...

1.) Satan is hopelessly, out of synch with the tenor of God's creation.

2.) Satan has gained no advantage through his rebellion. In fact, he has lost much by his rebellion, ... and is in the process of losing still more.

A picture of the kingdom of heaven is portrayed as a dining hall with place settings for each guest, but where each guest's utensils are too long for them to feed themselves. This apparently unfortunate situation is resolved when guests realize that they can cooperate with ... and feed/serve one another.

In our example, Satan is never fed ... because he refuses to feed anyone other than himself, or to allow anyone to feed him.

So ... Satan is an example for us of the results when one chooses not to conform to the plan of God.

 

[keith99]

There are a few theological possibilities. One that many see as reasonable is it ties into free will. For the choice to love and serve God to be truly free...God allows Satan to test, tempt and attack. God knows that He gives us sufficient Grace to make the right choices but we can always choose self over Him.

So the Devil is allowed to do as he wills to temp the will of people from God. It ties into things like what C.S. Lewis wrote in the problem of pain...a paraphrase is that one person might choose to hit another with a bat. God could make them not choose it. He could make the bat soft and there be on consequence to the hit. But neither of those allows free will to exist in its fullness. That ties into the devil who works on the worst impulses of humanity and seeks to subvert choices from God and toward the selfish.

So it ties into free will and consequences. And it is balanced by the fact that God gives us the grace to do what is right and angels to help us. We have all we need to make the right choices, and there is also the mercy of God. But there must be another option. Although that option exists with or without Satan because we can always choose self over God...Satan adds and active element so (it is believed) God allows him to continue in his efforts. And God turns all to His plan.

My friend asked about Satan in particular. I think a large part of that is that she is already aware of a general argument that all pain cannot be done away with. (Or if it could then the slightest lack of pleasure would take its place in the argument).

But what of Satan in particular? A being against which no mortal stands any chance of even hindering, let alone defeating or protecting his fellows from.

Do you give drug dealers unhindered access to your children? If not then why does God give Satan unhindered access to people?

 

[A_Thinker]

Do you give drug dealers unhindered access to your children? If not then why does God give Satan unhindered access to people?

God doesn't give Satan unhindered access to people.

If Satan had unhindered access to us, ... we'd all be dead.

God shields people from most of what Satan would inflict upon us.

God doesn't even leave us as unprotected against Satan as we typically (have little choice but to) leave our children susceptible to harm from other people. God is always there to protect us.

Which doesn't mean that He doesn't allow Satan to get in a shot every now and then. But such suffering tends to make us stronger ... similar to how resistance makes our muscles stronger. And God is there throughout our trouble ... encouraging, comforting, embracing, healing, rescuing, etc.

 

[rockytopva]

And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. - Revelation 18:20

It appears the whole planet earth has become a habitation of devils... I am single and never married, and I do not regret so, having asked myself multitude of times... Would I want to bring children into such an evil world?

 

[LivingWordUnity]

My friend asked about Satan in particular. I think a large part of that is that she is already aware of a general argument that all pain cannot be done away with. (Or if it could then the slightest lack of pleasure would take its place in the argument).

But what of Satan in particular? A being against which no mortal stands any chance of even hindering, let alone defeating or protecting his fellows from.

Do you give drug dealers unhindered access to your children? If not then why does God give Satan unhindered access to people?

God allows evil to go on but only for a short time. Keep in mind that our lifetime here is relatively very short. What is a hundred years compared to eternity? After a person dies they will experience God's judgment. The eternal reward of Heaven given by God to those who are given it makes the temporary suffering here seem like nothing since Heaven is forever and better than anything we can imagine.

 

[Bro. Daniel]

That is the question a young adult friend who has had her account here deactivated would like answered. I think it does make a difference who is asking a question so be aware she is Lutheran.

You may wonder why I ask here. Frankly it is because many other more trafficked areas that would seem more appropriate considering my faith icon are nasty enough that I would have little hope of any reasonable discourse. Other more liberal areas are apt to only yield comments that Satan is not a literal being. I'm hoping that here might yield more, even if only a bit more fleshing out if one holds that Satan is not a literal being.

We both thank you in advance.

Keith

Hi Keith,

Satan is a test for mankind because of sin (disobedience) and yes, he is absolutely real and very ugly. If you speak to high level witches they can confirm which I highly DO NOT recommend unless you like dying early in life or becoming a pauper.

Thankfully I didn't have to ask them. I unfortunately encountered him in the spiritual realm during the beginning of my walk with Father God Yahuah (pronounced Yah-Hah-Vey). The closer you draw near to God, satan will do his best to stop you and as he's tried with me, many times. Satan is not someone's friend but there's some people who'd rather believe a lie than the truth and find themselves in a special place (Hell) other than Heaven with God and end up dying twice: the first is natural death the second will be spiritual death at the day of judgment.

I'm unsure of how much you know about satan's background but he fooled 1/3rd of God's creation into following him. Before his removal, he made a pact with God to try and return to Heaven. When he got kicked out onto the Earth, the tower of Babel was his first attempt to getting back in and didn't bode well (Genesis 11, Isaiah 14).

God has already prophesied satan's loss and death. But this hasn't happened yet and he's not done trying either. We're still battling him today and many are helping satan knowingly or unknowingly. He was given the chance to live to test mankind in this aspect as nothing can happen without good and evil involved. What satan meant for evil, God turns it around for good. Sin keeps people in bondage with satan and he's allowed to attack or manipulate a person's life to experience, sorrow, death, depression, loss, disfavor, suicide, divorce, financial woes, infertility, diseases, sickness, etc. etc. etc. These are curses and he likes them.

If EVERYONE followed Yahushua HaMashiach (aka Jesus Christ the Messiah) and the Bible, satan would be bound forever and wouldn't have to worry about the consequences thereof. Everything and everyone would be in perfect peace. And if people truly knew the real consequences of sin and the fear of God, they seriously wouldn't sin but nobody is perfect and a lot die because of lack of knowledge including their lineage. (Hosea 4:6) Hope that answered some of your curiosity about him.

Shalom and blessings,
Bro. Daniel

 

[Bro. Daniel]

My friend asked about Satan in particular. I think a large part of that is that she is already aware of a general argument that all pain cannot be done away with. (Or if it could then the slightest lack of pleasure would take its place in the argument).

But what of Satan in particular? A being against which no mortal stands any chance of even hindering, let alone defeating or protecting his fellows from.

Do you give drug dealers unhindered access to your children? If not then why does God give Satan unhindered access to people?

Hi Keith,

What kind of pain is she experiencing? Physical or emotional? Pain can be removed but the underlying problem has to be revealed by asking God inquiry prayers to Him. Then it can be removed through prayer. Dedication has to be tight with God also as God is not a toy or to be played with nor is sin. (1 Corinthians 3:16-17)

Sin is what allows satan access to program a person's life. People don't understand what satan is up to nor have they asked God what gives satan accessible rights to them. It could be generational curses, ancestral curses, (sins of the fathers) or self-imposed sin to allow satan to hurt or ruin them.

It's as if God gives a person a car and says "Take care of this and I will bless you." Then through sin the person blatantly or unknowingly hands their car keys to a car thief and expects him to take care of the vehicle. Once recovered, they find it damaged and in need of repair from a mechanic.

 

[keith99]

Hi Keith,

What kind of pain is she experiencing? Physical or emotional?

What in anything I posted cause you to think she is experiencing any sort of pain or problem? She asked a valid question, nothing more.

 

[keith99]

God doesn't give Satan unhindered access to people.

If Satan had unhindered access to us, ... we'd all be dead.

God shields people from most of what Satan would inflict upon us.

God doesn't even leave us as unprotected against Satan as we typically (have little choice but to) leave our children susceptible to harm from other people. God is always there to protect us.

Which doesn't mean that He doesn't allow Satan to get in a shot every now and then. But such suffering tends to make us stronger ... similar to how resistance makes our muscles stronger. And God is there throughout our trouble ... encouraging, comforting, embracing, healing, rescuing, etc.

Good points. But is our death Satan's goal. Seems that is a rather shortsighted view. My good friend Screwtape seems to have had different priorities. For what its worth he is not happy about your post much as he likes a lot of this thread.

 

[Bro. Daniel]

What in anything I posted cause you to think she is experiencing any sort of pain or problem? She asked a valid question, nothing more.

Ah perhaps I misread this part:

I think a large part of that is that she is already aware of a general argument that all pain cannot be done away with. (Or if it could then the slightest lack of pleasure would take its place in the argument).

I was just going to say if she was experiencing any pain that it can be removed. It depends on the person's level with God in faith and specific prayers.