• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

WHY does GOD choose TO reside in SECRET?

YouAreAwesome

☝✌
Oct 17, 2016
2,181
969
Lismore, Australia
✟102,053.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It's not inappropriate. And at least I think he has done it.

I will give you an example of an ACTUAL, REAL manifestation of God, a true miracle, that you and anybody else can look at. I know God exists because of a divine revelation, but I know that Jesus, specifically, is divine and I am a Christian, as opposed to a non-denominational theist BECAUSE of this very miracle.

I speak of the Shroud of Turin. Fact is, if you actually delve into the science of this miracle, you realize that it is truly a miracle. It flat out CANNOT EXIST because of the law of entropy. It is impossible for the random gases of putrefaction to paint a 3-d negative "Mona Lisa", including inorganic things such as the lettering on the leptons on the eyes of the dead man. It's flat out impossible, like a human breathing water, or a human swimming in a river of hot lava unscathed. If those things happen, it is a true miracle, a thing that breaks the laws of physics.

The Shroud of Turin is such a thing, and if you've studied physics and chemistry, and you deeply study the Shroud, you will realize that it is, the image itself, by its existence, a miracle. It cannot be made by man - we can't do that today with supercomputers, and nature can't do it either, but THERE IT IS, and look WHO it is and what it conveys. So, a one-off freak miracle of nature exists, and it's Jesus' burial Shroud, and of all of the pieces of cloth to survive the ages and ages, THAT ONE and its companion facecloth in Oviedo Spain did.

Miracles compound. If you want to literally SEE both the hand of God and the FACE of God incarnate, you can: look at the Shroud of Turin.

Now, look at the way atheists react to the Shroud of Turin. They say it's a forgery, and quote erroneous science. Much work has been done to demonstrate the failings of the 1980's carbon dating, but the atheists - those who do not WANT to see, simply ignore all of that and repeat what they want to hear. Likewise, Christians who don't want to be bound to the Shroud affect a shoulder shrug about that which, when examined, cannot elicit a shoulder shrug.

We have a miracle we can LOOK AT, from God, and people can look at it, with a full education, and simply refuse to see it, because if they accept it for what it is, they are forced to change their lives completely.

Look at the alternative universes in which Democrats and Republicans in America are currently living as the election approaches. That stubborn bent of mind that, seeing refuses to perceive, and hearing refuses to understand, actually HAS miracles from God that it CAN see, but WON'T.

That's how it is with people. There are none so blind as they who refuse to see.
Reinhard Bonnke has DVDs with documented miracles also. Interviews with friends, family, doctors reports, newspaper articles, before and after footage, dead raised etc
 
Upvote 0

YouAreAwesome

☝✌
Oct 17, 2016
2,181
969
Lismore, Australia
✟102,053.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I don't think miracles are going to count as direct irrefutable display to an atheistic world.
Agreed. Well not on DVD anyway. And even if they see miracles in real life They can always be argued away. For me they are a another confirmation of my belief in God. Not really on this topic though, true.
 
Upvote 0

Radrook

Well-Known Member
Feb 25, 2016
11,539
2,726
USA
Visit site
✟150,380.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
As I read more, I'm thinking I might have misunderstood. (although, I still liked the question I thought you were asking.)

direct irrefutable display?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "direct" or why it is important. I'm guessing that you mean it is direct to the individual and not by some other route like indirect testimony.

Wouldn't a display be sensory? But that would be in contradiction to being irrefutable.

Perhaps you could give me a few examples of direct irrefutable displays. Or maybe just an example of each; a direct, an irrefutable, a display, or a combination of. I just want to make sure I understand.

What I mean by direct is not via text written by humans under inspiration. Not counting on such textual records as evidence. Instead to display astronomically or via the violation of natural laws on Earth something that is irrefutably of God. To proclaim that he will do it and then do it. That should put a muzzle on atheists who claim he doesn't exist. Not tat they will be converted into worship. After all, Satan and his Demons believe and they choose to disobey. Only that it would conclusively put to rest any argument based on lack of evidence which is constantly employed today.
 
Upvote 0

Radrook

Well-Known Member
Feb 25, 2016
11,539
2,726
USA
Visit site
✟150,380.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
I don't think miracles are going to count as direct irrefutable display to an atheistic world.

If the millions of stars would suddenly move from their orbits and spell out clear biblical messages in grammatically correct English, that would not be an irrefutable display? Really?
 
Upvote 0

Radrook

Well-Known Member
Feb 25, 2016
11,539
2,726
USA
Visit site
✟150,380.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Excellent question. I wonder myself. I hope that doesn't mean all the judgmental things that have been thrown at you are aimed at me. Some previous responses I might flip a coin on. Some seem to have merit or at least merit of my consideration. Anyway, I thought up some ideas. Hopefully I won't repeat too many others have said.

1. I look at all the times God has visited and I can't blame him for not wanting to come back. The bible is a good record that a warm visit is not waiting for him. I'm not always eager to have God visit me.

2. If we meet God after death, then it won't be long before we see him.

3. I don't deserve to meet God and I'm not about to demand God anything.

4. I have sight of God within my soul.

5. The church is the embodiment of Christ. Ask Christians why they are hiding him. And yes, I have a mirror.

6. In order to sin and give in to dark desires, I must first blind myself to God and lessen my faith in order to do what I want.

7. When God visits me directly, I look away or want him to leave.

8. I could question your question by asking what do you want to know for.

9. I could accuse you.

10. I could get offended because you are getting too close to the truth inside me I don't want to face.

Thanks for the feedback.
No, I am not demanding anything. I am just asking why.
True, whenever we wilfully choose to sin we must somehow minimize our faith or feel distanced or wronged in some way in order to proceed. That is a flaw in human character. How is the Church hiding or preventing God from revealing Himself in an irrefutable manner?
 
Upvote 0

Radrook

Well-Known Member
Feb 25, 2016
11,539
2,726
USA
Visit site
✟150,380.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
It's not inappropriate. And at least I think he has done it.

I will give you an example of an ACTUAL, REAL manifestation of God, a true miracle, that you and anybody else can look at. I know God exists because of a divine revelation, but I know that Jesus, specifically, is divine and I am a Christian, as opposed to a non-denominational theist BECAUSE of this very miracle.

I speak of the Shroud of Turin. Fact is, if you actually delve into the science of this miracle, you realize that it is truly a miracle. It flat out CANNOT EXIST because of the law of entropy. It is impossible for the random gases of putrefaction to paint a 3-d negative "Mona Lisa", including inorganic things such as the lettering on the leptons on the eyes of the dead man. It's flat out impossible, like a human breathing water, or a human swimming in a river of hot lava unscathed. If those things happen, it is a true miracle, a thing that breaks the laws of physics.

The Shroud of Turin is such a thing, and if you've studied physics and chemistry, and you deeply study the Shroud, you will realize that it is, the image itself, by its existence, a miracle. It cannot be made by man - we can't do that today with supercomputers, and nature can't do it either, but THERE IT IS, and look WHO it is and what it conveys. So, a one-off freak miracle of nature exists, and it's Jesus' burial Shroud, and of all of the pieces of cloth to survive the ages and ages, THAT ONE and its companion facecloth in Oviedo Spain did.

Miracles compound. If you want to literally SEE both the hand of God and the FACE of God incarnate, you can: look at the Shroud of Turin.

Now, look at the way atheists react to the Shroud of Turin. They say it's a forgery, and quote erroneous science. Much work has been done to demonstrate the failings of the 1980's carbon dating, but the atheists - those who do not WANT to see, simply ignore all of that and repeat what they want to hear. Likewise, Christians who don't want to be bound to the Shroud affect a shoulder shrug about that which, when examined, cannot elicit a shoulder shrug.

We have a miracle we can LOOK AT, from God, and people can look at it, with a full education, and simply refuse to see it, because if they accept it for what it is, they are forced to change their lives completely.

Look at the alternative universes in which Democrats and Republicans in America are currently living as the election approaches. That stubborn bent of mind that, seeing refuses to perceive, and hearing refuses to understand, actually HAS miracles from God that it CAN see, but WON'T.

That's how it is with people. There are none so blind as they who refuse to see.

Yes, I agree. The Shroud is indeed a miracle and it is indeed explained away. There is the difference between that type of miracle and the one I am suggesting. The type of miracle I am suggesting leaves absolutely no room for an alternate explanation. For example, if the astronomers would see the stars suddenly leave their orbits and begin to spell out biblical messages in English, what other explanation could there be but God? Or if several miracles are announced via TV interference to be scheduled to occur by the voice of God and they happening schedule, let's say the submergence of Australia under two feet of water for a few minutes, and other such phenomenon, then the conclusions inevitable. Better still, Were He to suddenly send one of his angels to the United Nations to appear and address the assembly in his name. That too would be irrefutable Or if he Himself would suddenly display a representation of his heaven to astronomers similar to what is described in Revelation along with a message to SETI stating that it is HE woo is responsible. That also would be irrefutable.

There are many, many ways that he could make Himself directly known which are far more convincing than text or the Shroud. Not to say that the Shroud is unconvincing. I find it very compelling. Only to say that there are far more DIRECT ways to put the question of his nonexistence to rest conclusively. What mankind does AFTER such a demonstration is provided is entirely up to mankind.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CrystalDragon
Upvote 0

Vicomte13

Well-Known Member
Jan 6, 2016
3,655
1,816
Westport, Connecticut
✟108,837.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Yes, I agree. The Shroud is indeed a miracle and it is indeed explained away. There is the difference between that type of miracle and the one I am suggesting. The type of miracle I am suggesting leaves absolutely no room for an alternate explanation. For example, if the astronomers would see the stars suddenly leave their orbits and begin to spell out biblical messages in English, what other explanation could there be but God? Or if several miracles are announced via TV interference to be scheduled to occur by the voice of God and they happening schedule, let's say the submergence of Australia under two feet of water for a few minutes, and other such phenomenon, then the conclusions inevitable. Better still, Were He to suddenly send one of his angels to the United Nations to appear and address the assembly in his name. That too would be irrefutable Or if he Himself would suddenly display a representation of his heaven to astronomers similar to what is described in Revelation along with a message to SETI stating that it is HE woo is responsible. That also would be irrefutable.

There are many, many ways that he could make Himself directly known which are far more convincing than text or the Shroud. Not to say that the Shroud is unconvincing. I find it very compelling. Only to say that there are far more DIRECT ways to put the question of his nonexistence to rest conclusively. What mankind does AFTER such a demonstration is provided is entirely up to mankind.

Sure, he could do that. He could discombobulate all that he has set up to make such a sign. But he doesn't. From talking to him, I have an inkling why. It's kind of harsh, but it's true. Why bother? We think of ourselves as special snowflakes that God tenderly loves. In a sense that's true. We're each unique. But snowflakes melt in a twinkling of an eye. God has already picked out the particular horrible death each of us will suffer. For some, it will be a sudden, massive chest clutcher. Others will feel our minds go slushy and be unable to talk. Some of us will hack ourselves to death as our lungs turn black with tumors. Others will desperately claw for a breath in our sinking cars. Some of us will burn alive in a house fire. Others will be crushed by a bus. Still others will suffocate in mudslides. Others still will face the horror of the killer stabbing us over and over and over and over in the dark. Every one of us has a painful and horrible death awaiting us, a death that God already knows, and indeed that God has destined us for.

When you remember that, your lofty view of the tenderness of God should drop to the ground with a thud. God loves you, in a very real sense, like a farmer loves a farm animal. He takes care of each of us, in his way, until he slaughters us - he already knows the manner of each of our slaughter, and he will not stay his hand no matter how much we pray, love him earnestly ask him to. Our Father in Heaven is a Father who kills each and every one of his children in time. Never forget that.

And when you think about that, you realize pretty suddenly why he doesn't go out of his way to move the stars to persuade us of anything. He has already set before us a dark and terrifying, and painful death, the certitude of which always lingers in our minds.

We are his sons and daughters. Each of us was breathed out by him. He has one son that was closer to him than all others - he didn't just breathe him out but actually fathered him biologically and gave him everything. And look at the horrible, prolonged, agonizing death he made HIM go through. And then, for good measure, 11 of 12 of his son's closest friends, who followed him to the end - all but one - was each in his own turn slaughtered - generally tortured to death on account of Jesus.

God really does not care all that much about our suffering, truth be told. We are effectively 6 billion maggots wriggling and twisting away our short time on the surface of the planet, all doomed to die, along with the billions of actual fly maggots, whose physical structures are different but who were ALSO breathed out by God, and who also live but a short time and then perish in various generally hideous ways.

Death is a black maw that devours all, soon. God merely gives us the gift, perhaps unlike the animals, to know of death, to know that it is approaching, to know that it is inevitable.

And he gives us one chance, essentially, to be acceptable to him. We can trust him, that he really DOES love us and that things will go well for us beyond the black maw of death. In which case we're sort of a pet that is allowed to live and given a place near the Master in his garden, and then eventually in his city. Or we can doubt, be unable to believe and trust, hold back, and essentially refuse the leash. In which case he has no further time or use for us, simply finds us worthless trash, and throws us into the fire to be burnt up, like some runt of the litter on the farm that's useless, so the farmer just crushes its head.

In this sense - a very real since - the black curtain of death is the implacable miracle that forces each of us to face God, on HIS terms, never (ever) on ours. He doesn't move the stars for us because he doesn't frankly CARE all that much about us. We're not important. He's the creator and Master, of maggots and men. We think more highly of ourselves than we do of maggots, and God does too, to a degree. He kills men and maggots alike, but the way that he shows favor to men is by letting us know of death, and contemplate it all of our lives, know it is coming, fear it. And he tells us, with words only, and with a few simply throwaways like the Shroud, what's on the other side.

And that's as far as he cares. Millions or billions of us will take him up on his offer, trust him, if only out of fear and hope, and have a shot at better. The rest won't. They die along with the rest of us, but they just get thrown on the rubbish heat to be burnt with the rest of the trash.

So what is the miracle that God shows us? The knowledge of our death, and the knowledge that there's something beyond it. Those who take the knowledge and do something with it get to go on, which is great for us, and God loves us enough to have given us that to look forward to. But God doesn't love us more than that. Don't take up that miracle and ponder it and take a chance on hope that there's something beyond that black curtain...well...there still is something beyond that black curtain, and you're not going to like what's on the other side any better than you will like the death you'll experience on this side in order to pass through it.

In a very real sense God's sense of miracle for us is rather grim. Remember what he did to Jesus. And realize that we're just not all that important. That we were given any hope at all is barely enough. Most of us are never getting any more than that. Because there are billions of us, and individually we're just simply not all that important.

God knows we want more, to be sure. And he doesn't care. He's given what he's given, he's not giving any more. There are two things on the menu: take it, or leave it. He does care, but barely. He doesn't sob when a human walks away from him, he just makes billions more and, when he kills that particular human, tosses him on the trash pile. The potter makes porcelain plates, but he also makes chamber pots. He lets you choose what you're going to be - he gives that much. But he doesn't work hard to help us decide, because individually, we're not important enough to move the stars for. We mistakenly think we are.
 
Upvote 0

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,946
11,096
okie
✟222,536.00
Faith
Anabaptist
I must have missed that grim part of ,,,.
There's a lot secret in mankind/ all around us
that is so devastating that it is not
good to pursue looking into it,
unless YHWH directs someone's steps that
way for HIS PURPOSE ONLY.
It can utterly devastate a person to find out
what those the world trusts have done, are
doing, and will do.
(like finding out "we" (men today) would
with glee! re-crucify Y'SHUA MESSIAH AGAIN
(or rather try to )
) and torture HIS children on earth TODAY
daily,
and market men's souls like beef is bought and sold.
 
Upvote 0

redblue22

You Are Special.
Jan 13, 2012
10,733
1,498
✟88,841.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
There's a lot secret in mankind/ all around us
that is so devastating that it is not
good to pursue looking into it,
unless YHWH directs someone's steps that
way for HIS PURPOSE ONLY.
It can utterly devastate a person to find out
what those the world trusts have done, are
doing, and will do.
(like finding out "we" (men today) would
with glee! re-crucify Y'SHUA MESSIAH AGAIN
(or rather try to )
) and torture HIS children on earth TODAY
daily,
and market men's souls like beef is bought and sold.

Read the post just before my last and what he has to say about God. Vicomte paints a pretty dark version of catholicism.
 
Upvote 0

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,946
11,096
okie
✟222,536.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Read the post just before my last and what he has to say about God. ......
I read often every day what SCRIPTURE says about YHWH and what is extravagantly generously revealed by YHWH in and through Y'SHUA MESSIAH.
I see no point in reading more versions not in SCRIPTURE especially not of anything dark ...
 
Upvote 0

CrystalDragon

Well-Known Member
Apr 28, 2016
3,119
1,664
US
✟56,261.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Sure, he could do that. He could discombobulate all that he has set up to make such a sign. But he doesn't. From talking to him, I have an inkling why. It's kind of harsh, but it's true. Why bother? We think of ourselves as special snowflakes that God tenderly loves. In a sense that's true. We're each unique. But snowflakes melt in a twinkling of an eye. God has already picked out the particular horrible death each of us will suffer. For some, it will be a sudden, massive chest clutcher. Others will feel our minds go slushy and be unable to talk. Some of us will hack ourselves to death as our lungs turn black with tumors. Others will desperately claw for a breath in our sinking cars. Some of us will burn alive in a house fire. Others will be crushed by a bus. Still others will suffocate in mudslides. Others still will face the horror of the killer stabbing us over and over and over and over in the dark. Every one of us has a painful and horrible death awaiting us, a death that God already knows, and indeed that God has destined us for.

When you remember that, your lofty view of the tenderness of God should drop to the ground with a thud. God loves you, in a very real sense, like a farmer loves a farm animal. He takes care of each of us, in his way, until he slaughters us - he already knows the manner of each of our slaughter, and he will not stay his hand no matter how much we pray, love him earnestly ask him to. Our Father in Heaven is a Father who kills each and every one of his children in time. Never forget that.

And when you think about that, you realize pretty suddenly why he doesn't go out of his way to move the stars to persuade us of anything. He has already set before us a dark and terrifying, and painful death, the certitude of which always lingers in our minds.

We are his sons and daughters. Each of us was breathed out by him. He has one son that was closer to him than all others - he didn't just breathe him out but actually fathered him biologically and gave him everything. And look at the horrible, prolonged, agonizing death he made HIM go through. And then, for good measure, 11 of 12 of his son's closest friends, who followed him to the end - all but one - was each in his own turn slaughtered - generally tortured to death on account of Jesus.

God really does not care all that much about our suffering, truth be told. We are effectively 6 billion maggots wriggling and twisting away our short time on the surface of the planet, all doomed to die, along with the billions of actual fly maggots, whose physical structures are different but who were ALSO breathed out by God, and who also live but a short time and then perish in various generally hideous ways.

Death is a black maw that devours all, soon. God merely gives us the gift, perhaps unlike the animals, to know of death, to know that it is approaching, to know that it is inevitable.

And he gives us one chance, essentially, to be acceptable to him. We can trust him, that he really DOES love us and that things will go well for us beyond the black maw of death. In which case we're sort of a pet that is allowed to live and given a place near the Master in his garden, and then eventually in his city. Or we can doubt, be unable to believe and trust, hold back, and essentially refuse the leash. In which case he has no further time or use for us, simply finds us worthless trash, and throws us into the fire to be burnt up, like some runt of the litter on the farm that's useless, so the farmer just crushes its head.

In this sense - a very real since - the black curtain of death is the implacable miracle that forces each of us to face God, on HIS terms, never (ever) on ours. He doesn't move the stars for us because he doesn't frankly CARE all that much about us. We're not important. He's the creator and Master, of maggots and men. We think more highly of ourselves than we do of maggots, and God does too, to a degree. He kills men and maggots alike, but the way that he shows favor to men is by letting us know of death, and contemplate it all of our lives, know it is coming, fear it. And he tells us, with words only, and with a few simply throwaways like the Shroud, what's on the other side.

And that's as far as he cares. Millions or billions of us will take him up on his offer, trust him, if only out of fear and hope, and have a shot at better. The rest won't. They die along with the rest of us, but they just get thrown on the rubbish heat to be burnt with the rest of the trash.

So what is the miracle that God shows us? The knowledge of our death, and the knowledge that there's something beyond it. Those who take the knowledge and do something with it get to go on, which is great for us, and God loves us enough to have given us that to look forward to. But God doesn't love us more than that. Don't take up that miracle and ponder it and take a chance on hope that there's something beyond that black curtain...well...there still is something beyond that black curtain, and you're not going to like what's on the other side any better than you will like the death you'll experience on this side in order to pass through it.

In a very real sense God's sense of miracle for us is rather grim. Remember what he did to Jesus. And realize that we're just not all that important. That we were given any hope at all is barely enough. Most of us are never getting any more than that. Because there are billions of us, and individually we're just simply not all that important.

God knows we want more, to be sure. And he doesn't care. He's given what he's given, he's not giving any more. There are two things on the menu: take it, or leave it. He does care, but barely. He doesn't sob when a human walks away from him, he just makes billions more and, when he kills that particular human, tosses him on the trash pile. The potter makes porcelain plates, but he also makes chamber pots. He lets you choose what you're going to be - he gives that much. But he doesn't work hard to help us decide, because individually, we're not important enough to move the stars for. We mistakenly think we are.


All of that doesn't exactly seem like God loves us. As you said at the start of one paragraph, it seems more that he doesn't care about our suffering. Like believing we are loved is just a desperate attempt by us to understand why we are here when he already set us up to fail.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Radrook

Well-Known Member
Feb 25, 2016
11,539
2,726
USA
Visit site
✟150,380.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
All of that doesn't exactly seem like God loves us. As you said at the start of one paragraph, it seems more that he doesn't care about our suffering. Like believing we are loved is just a desperate attempt by us to understand why we are here when he already set us up to fail.
I sincerely doubt that you learned that from Catholicism.
 
Upvote 0

Radrook

Well-Known Member
Feb 25, 2016
11,539
2,726
USA
Visit site
✟150,380.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
T
Sure, he could do that. He could discombobulate all that he has set up to make such a sign. But he doesn't. From talking to him, I have an inkling why. It's kind of harsh, but it's true. Why bother? We think of ourselves as special snowflakes that God tenderly loves. In a sense that's true. We're each unique. But snowflakes melt in a twinkling of an eye. God has already picked out the particular horrible death each of us will suffer. For some, it will be a sudden, massive chest clutcher. Others will feel our minds go slushy and be unable to talk. Some of us will hack ourselves to death as our lungs turn black with tumors. Others will desperately claw for a breath in our sinking cars. Some of us will burn alive in a house fire. Others will be crushed by a bus. Still others will suffocate in mudslides. Others still will face the horror of the killer stabbing us over and over and over and over in the dark. Every one of us has a painful and horrible death awaiting us, a death that God already knows, and indeed that God has destined us for.

When you remember that, your lofty view of the tenderness of God should drop to the ground with a thud. God loves you, in a very real sense, like a farmer loves a farm animal. He takes care of each of us, in his way, until he slaughters us - he already knows the manner of each of our slaughter, and he will not stay his hand no matter how much we pray, love him earnestly ask him to. Our Father in Heaven is a Father who kills each and every one of his children in time. Never forget that.

And when you think about that, you realize pretty suddenly why he doesn't go out of his way to move the stars to persuade us of anything. He has already set before us a dark and terrifying, and painful death, the certitude of which always lingers in our minds.

We are his sons and daughters. Each of us was breathed out by him. He has one son that was closer to him than all others - he didn't just breathe him out but actually fathered him biologically and gave him everything. And look at the horrible, prolonged, agonizing death he made HIM go through. And then, for good measure, 11 of 12 of his son's closest friends, who followed him to the end - all but one - was each in his own turn slaughtered - generally tortured to death on account of Jesus.

God really does not care all that much about our suffering, truth be told. We are effectively 6 billion maggots wriggling and twisting away our short time on the surface of the planet, all doomed to die, along with the billions of actual fly maggots, whose physical structures are different but who were ALSO breathed out by God, and who also live but a short time and then perish in various generally hideous ways.

Death is a black maw that devours all, soon. God merely gives us the gift, perhaps unlike the animals, to know of death, to know that it is approaching, to know that it is inevitable.

And he gives us one chance, essentially, to be acceptable to him. We can trust him, that he really DOES love us and that things will go well for us beyond the black maw of death. In which case we're sort of a pet that is allowed to live and given a place near the Master in his garden, and then eventually in his city. Or we can doubt, be unable to believe and trust, hold back, and essentially refuse the leash. In which case he has no further time or use for us, simply finds us worthless trash, and throws us into the fire to be burnt up, like some runt of the litter on the farm that's useless, so the farmer just crushes its head.

In this sense - a very real since - the black curtain of death is the implacable miracle that forces each of us to face God, on HIS terms, never (ever) on ours. He doesn't move the stars for us because he doesn't frankly CARE all that much about us. We're not important. He's the creator and Master, of maggots and men. We think more highly of ourselves than we do of maggots, and God does too, to a degree. He kills men and maggots alike, but the way that he shows favor to men is by letting us know of death, and contemplate it all of our lives, know it is coming, fear it. And he tells us, with words only, and with a few simply throwaways like the Shroud, what's on the other side.

And that's as far as he cares. Millions or billions of us will take him up on his offer, trust him, if only out of fear and hope, and have a shot at better. The rest won't. They die along with the rest of us, but they just get thrown on the rubbish heat to be burnt with the rest of the trash.

So what is the miracle that God shows us? The knowledge of our death, and the knowledge that there's something beyond it. Those who take the knowledge and do something with it get to go on, which is great for us, and God loves us enough to have given us that to look forward to. But God doesn't love us more than that. Don't take up that miracle and ponder it and take a chance on hope that there's something beyond that black curtain...well...there still is something beyond that black curtain, and you're not going to like what's on the other side any better than you will like the death you'll experience on this side in order to pass through it.

In a very real sense God's sense of miracle for us is rather grim. Remember what he did to Jesus. And realize that we're just not all that important. That we were given any hope at all is barely enough. Most of us are never getting any more than that. Because there are billions of us, and individually we're just simply not all that important.

God knows we want more, to be sure. And he doesn't care. He's given what he's given, he's not giving any more. There are two things on the menu: take it, or leave it. He does care, but barely. He doesn't sob when a human walks away from him, he just makes billions more and, when he kills that particular human, tosses him on the trash pile. The potter makes porcelain plates, but he also makes chamber pots. He lets you choose what you're going to be - he gives that much. But he doesn't work hard to help us decide, because individually, we're not important enough to move the stars for. We mistakenly think we are.

That doesn't sound like Catholic doctrine.

BTW
If indeed you derived that message from TALKING to him then I sincerely doubt that it was actually Him whom you were talking with. That message seems more like it was Satan that you were talking to making as if he were God. Were you in some type of séance situation or consulting a Ouija Board?

2 Corinthians 11:14
New International Version
And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

BTW


Here is the exact same message you just delivered provided to one of Job’s tormenters via one of Satan’s a demon spirits in a dream:


Job 4:

12 “A word was secretly brought to me, my ears caught a whisper of it.

13 Amid disquieting dreams in the night, when deep sleep falls on people,

14 fear and trembling seized me and made all my bones shake.

15 A spirit glided past my face, and the hair on my body stood on end.

16 It stopped, but I could not tell what it was. A form stood before my eyes, and I heard a hushed voice:

17 ‘Can a mortal be more righteous than God? Can even a strong man be more pure than his Maker?

18 If God places no trust in his servants, if he charges his angels with error,

19 how much more those who live in houses of clay, whose foundations are in the dust, who are crushed more readily than a moth!

20 Between dawn and dusk they are broken to pieces; unnoticed, they perish forever.

Then it accuses Job of Evil and deserving what he is suffering:


1 “Call if you will, but who will answer you? To which of the holy ones will you turn?

2
Resentment kills a fool, and envy slays the simple.

3 I myself have seen a fool taking root, but suddenly his house was cursed.

4 His children are far from safety, crushed in court without a defender.

5 The hungry consume his harvest, taking it even from among thorns, and the thirsty pant after his wealth.

6 For hardship does not spring from the soil, nor does trouble sprout from the ground.

7 Yet man is born to trouble as surely as sparks fly upward.

Since it is essentially the same message-could it be the identical spirit in a dream whom you mistook as God speaking to you?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Vicomte13

Well-Known Member
Jan 6, 2016
3,655
1,816
Westport, Connecticut
✟108,837.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
BTW
If indeed you derived that message from TALKING to him then I sincerely doubt that it was actually Him whom you were talking with. That message seems more like it was Satan that you were talking to making as if he were God. Were you in some type of séance situation or consulting a Ouija Board?

Nothing occult, not ever.
 
Upvote 0

Vicomte13

Well-Known Member
Jan 6, 2016
3,655
1,816
Westport, Connecticut
✟108,837.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Here is the exact same message you just delivered provided to one of Job’s tormenters


Since it is essentially the same message-could it be the identical spirit in a dream whom you mistook as God speaking to you?

It was not at all the same thing.
It's fun being the judge, isn't it?
I withdraw my case now and take my leave.
 
Upvote 0